Hobby Hustle Documentary 2-16-25

[Tomi]

A new memorabilia documentary comes out Feb. 16 and looks like it's going to tackle the fraud in our community. It's listed at 2.5 hours long so it looks like a lot will be discussed. I'm sure it's mostly modern collecting that's gonna be discussed but we all know none of us are immune from it on the vintage and pre-war side. Looks very interesting from the trailer and one of our own from Net54 is in it. Hopefully he can chime in if he has seen it to let us know what to expect. Looks like it's going to be on Apple and Amazon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q3p...IHRyYWlsZXI%3D

[BioCRN]

Looks neat, but what's up with the Black Swamp Find being lumped in here?

I know there's a sliver of the community that thinks these were modern cut and some that believe they're fake. Am I missing something else?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

Looks neat, but what's up with the Black Swamp Find being lumped in here?

I know there's a sliver of the community that thinks these were modern cut and some that believe they're fake. Am I missing something else?

We will find out in a week. Maybe just a hook to get people to watch. Should be a fun watch from the list of featured people.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

Looks neat, but what's up with the Black Swamp Find being lumped in here?

I know there's a sliver of the community that thinks these were modern cut and some that believe they're fake. Am I missing something else?

Fake? Really?

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Fake? Really?

Some people got some real strong conspiracy feelings about the Black Swamp Find beyond some people being upset or happy about the surge of very high end cards suddenly showing up.

I'm not sure there's many left after the initial skepticism on the discovery, though. I think there's more converts than skeptics left, anyway.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

Some people got some real strong conspiracy feelings about the Black Swamp Find beyond some people being upset or happy about the surge of very high end cards suddenly showing up.

I'm not sure there's many left after the initial skepticism on the discovery, though. I think there's more converts than skeptics left, anyway.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ht=Black+swamp

After I started the thread above, a member of the family began communicating with me about the find, the auction process, and all the stress and anxiety (and of course excitement). That person was very credible. Since my return to the hobby, I have learned that the population of the cards is now much greater than previously reported and/or assumed, but I still believe there is no way they are fake. The number of people and companies that would’ve had to conspire together in order to pull that off… there’s just no way.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ht=Black+swamp

After I started the thread above, a member of the family began communicating with me about the find, the auction process, and all the stress and anxiety (and of course excitement). That person was very credible. Since my return to the hobby, I have learned that the population of the cards is now much greater than previously reported and/or assumed, but I still believe there is no way they are fake. The number of people and companies that would’ve had to conspire together in order to pull that off… there’s just no way.

I am in no way saying they are fake as I know nothing about the BSF. I am surprised how many think printing from 100 years ago is some outrageously difficult thing that nobody could do now. I have a great uncle that owned a fairly large printing company and 2 lifelong friends that have decades in printing. Trust me you do not have to be smart to do anything related to printing a simple picture on paper. Knowing that I have been amazed for a very long time way more top quality counterfeits have not completely flooded the market. With the way printing is dying I am amazed some small print shop owners haven't given it a shot because their company is or has gone bankrupt.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I imagine the piece is about the hobby as a whole, not just the scandals.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Spotlighting fraud in baseball cards is so 2020-2022.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ht=Black+swamp

After I started the thread above, a member of the family began communicating with me about the find, the auction process, and all the stress and anxiety (and of course excitement). That person was very credible. Since my return to the hobby, I have learned that the population of the cards is now much greater than previously reported and/or assumed, but I still believe there is no way they are fake. The number of people and companies that would’ve had to conspire together in order to pull that off… there’s just no way.

Nah. Just takes a couple people to make counterfeits of sufficient quality.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Nah. Just takes a couple people to make counterfeits of sufficient quality.

lol

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

lol

What makes you think otherwise? Which is more plausible - a gigantic conspiracy of tons of people all ignoring counterfeits or.....

A small team of people creating counterfeits that aren't detectable?

The latter, of course, since it's already happened with numerous other items across multiple collecting genres.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I am in no way saying they are fake as I know nothing about the BSF. I am surprised how many think printing from 100 years ago is some outrageously difficult thing that nobody could do now. I have a great uncle that owned a fairly large printing company and 2 lifelong friends that have decades in printing. Trust me you do not have to be smart to do anything related to printing a simple picture on paper. Knowing that I have been amazed for a very long time way more top quality counterfeits have not completely flooded the market. With the way printing is dying I am amazed some small print shop owners haven't given it a shot because their company is or has gone bankrupt.

The difficult part is reproducing paper stock to look and feel the exact same way as the originals. Although getting it just close enough that it would fool the "experts" likely isn't as tall of a task.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Tabe

What makes you think otherwise? Which is more plausible - a gigantic conspiracy of tons of people all ignoring counterfeits or.....

A small team of people creating counterfeits that aren't detectable?

The latter, of course, since it's already happened with numerous other items across multiple collecting genres.

Neither.

[parkplace33]

I am interested in this documentary. Plenty of material to choose from

As for Black Swamp, I think more collectors were just mad about the flood of pristine cards coming out.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

As for Black Swamp, I think more collectors were just mad about the flood of pristine cards coming out.

Certainly those who had slaved away on a Registry set in a 3 or 4 who now had the tobacco era equivalent of 1988 Donruss on their hands.

[Snowman]

I don't know much about the black swamp find, but I'm generally an adherent to the belief that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And the black swamp find being entirely legit is certainly an extraordinary claim.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Spotlighting fraud in baseball cards is so 2020-2022.

Good one!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Neither.

Now that we probably agree on.

[4815162342]

I rented this documentary on Apple TV and watched it this afternoon. Jeff L. did a terrific job. The segments on The Black Swamp Find were great. It was funny to see the Sports Card Radio guys.

I have never collected autographs, and I do not plan to start after hearing the main “character” that served time say that he has hundreds of autographs memorized with at least one of his forgeries (at least formerly) being used as a TPA’s exemplar.

[toppcat]

All well and good but as always, nothing will result.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by toppcat

All well and good but as always, nothing will result.

Maybe it will further drive more business to the TPGs if a flood of people get scared about potential fakes without realizing that the TPGs are far from infallible on this score?

[Snowman]

That may have been the worst documentary I've ever seen. Actually, yes. Yes, that was the worst documentary I've ever seen.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Maybe it will further drive more business to the TPGs if a flood of people get scared about potential fakes without realizing that the TPGs are far from infallible on this score?

Speaking of which.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1606079

[Brent G.]

This thing could’ve been an hour shorter, and it wasn’t the cleanest job of spinning three stories into one, but it was decent hobby entertainment.

[homerunhitter]

Makes me wonder if autographs authenticated by a TPA such as PSA are a safe bet going forward. Maybe I’ll just focus on the topps certified and the upper deck legendary cuts autographs instead. At least those are more likely to be “real”.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

This thing could’ve been an hour shorter, and it wasn’t the cleanest job of spinning three stories into one, but it was decent hobby entertainment.

Just one hour shorter? I counted 2.5 at least

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

Makes me wonder if autographs authenticated by a TPA such as PSA are a safe bet going forward. Maybe I’ll just focus on the topps certified and the upper deck legendary cuts autographs instead. At least those are more likely to be “real”.

I don’t think anything is safe with third party autographs except for those items people know for a fact were signed by athletes. Assume that’s why we always have to remember authenticated autographs or just an opinion.

We probably staring at the tip of an autographed card scandal. Plus it’s not all by scrupulous people. It’s been known for decades that famous athletes such as Willie Mays had their wives signed check, letters, and autographs. Then we hear stories about operational bullpen, the recent alleged Jason Kelce signing scandal w/ a Beckett employee involved.

people are buying the seller much more so than autograph. For example, I didn’t feel comfortable purchasing my signed 1969 Topps Mickey Mantle until the seller shared old pictures of the card being signed at the 1989 East Coast national with him in the frame w/ Mick. In the last year, I had 3 Koufax cards signed; all coordinated by cardboard legends so fingers crossed even if they are slapped.

[oldjudge]

I saw the documentary last night and agree with those saying it was pretty bad. The forger who is a big part of the show is scarey good though. After seeing him and based on my own limited experience with autograph authentication I think anyone who relies on authenticators to tell them if their autographs are good is, to put it kindly, rolling the dice. My experience is the opposite of most. I had an autograph which was 100% good called fake by PSA. The history of this is in the mid-1990s I hosted customer dinners and would have star athletes present for the customers to meet. One customer dinner was with Jim Brown. As part of the evening the athlete would take pictures with guests and autograph things for them. When Jim was there we had Browns mini-helmets to get autographs on. I got a few extras signed to send to any customers who were unable to attend but wanted one. Fast forward to last year. I had an extra left in my closet and I consigned it to LOTG game. Not a big item, probably worth $100-$200, but I didn't need it and I thought someone might like it. Al sent it to PSA for authentication and it came back bad. Not only did they say it was bad but they had a laundry list of things that they said was wrong with it (Al sent me their analysis). Makes me pretty skeptical of the process.

[homerunhitter]

Originally Posted by tjisonline

I don’t think anything is safe with third party autographs except for those items people know for a fact were signed by athletes. Assume that’s why we always have to remember authenticated autographs or just an opinion.

We probably staring at the tip of an autographed card scandal. Plus it’s not all by scrupulous people. It’s been known for decades that famous athletes such as Willie Mays had their wives signed check, letters, and autographs. Then we hear stories about operational bullpen, the recent alleged Jason Kelce signing scandal w/ a Beckett employee involved.

people are buying the seller much more so than autograph. For example, I didn’t feel comfortable purchasing my signed 1969 Topps Mickey Mantle until the seller shared old pictures of the card being signed at the 1989 East Coast national with him in the frame w/ Mick. In the last year, I had 3 Koufax cards signed; all coordinated by cardboard legends so fingers crossed even if they are slapped.

Iceberg straight ahead! Ring the bell, ring the bell! Sound the alarm! This cannot be good for the hobby. I agree with you my friend. It might get to a point where only topps certified autographs will be safe (mostly)

[bk400]

The funniest part of the documentary was when Jeffrey Lichtman (wearing a Glock T-shirt, no less) is talking about the high profile clients he's defended, contrasts it with his passion for baseball cards, and goes, "...and that's why I'm here...there's no other explanation for why a lawyer, doing the stuff I do, would ever be at -- [pauses and turns to gesture at the motley crew of card convention attendees] -- this ridiculous baseball card national for 3 days."

[gonefishin]

I watched it last night, very entertaining. The family from Black Swamp find came across as sincere and the real deal. I'm happy for them!

The only thing I would like to note is regarding the forger. I don't think I can believe anything this convicted felon says. He stated that PSA used one of his autographs as an exemplar. Really, why in the hell would anyone believe anything this man says? About the only thing I believed coming out of his mouth was that he was in charge of running the sports betting and gambling ring while in prison and had 16 people working for him. He is not rehabilitated, and just like a drug addict, will be back to his same way of life within a couple of years. I don't guess that actually getting a job ever crossed his mind. According to the detective, his father reached out and stated that he had told them to stop doing the forgeries, but they didn't. The mother was complicit. I think everyone involved should have been sent to prison, not given probation that several received.

The conspiracy theories around the Black Swamp find, in my opinion, is nothing but bull crap. I for one celebrate the find and wish nothing but the best for the family.

Since "The Curse of Oak Island" wasn't shown last night, this served as a good filler.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by tjisonline

I don’t think anything is safe with third party autographs except for those items people know for a fact were signed by athletes. Assume that’s why we always have to remember authenticated autographs or just an opinion.

We probably staring at the tip of an autographed card scandal. Plus it’s not all by scrupulous people. It’s been known for decades that famous athletes such as Willie Mays had their wives signed check, letters, and autographs. Then we hear stories about operational bullpen, the recent alleged Jason Kelce signing scandal w/ a Beckett employee involved.

people are buying the seller much more so than autograph. For example, I didn’t feel comfortable purchasing my signed 1969 Topps Mickey Mantle until the seller shared old pictures of the card being signed at the 1989 East Coast national with him in the frame w/ Mick. In the last year, I had 3 Koufax cards signed; all coordinated by cardboard legends so fingers crossed even if they are slapped.

After my return to the hobby a few years ago, I've come to realize that some suspension of disbelief is required to enjoy myself. I know in the back of my mind that there is a chance that the authenticated autograph that I buy is fake. I just purchased a bunch of non-authenticated autographed 1986 Topps Mets cards. I'd like to think that no one is going to bother forging Kevin Mitchell's autograph for a $5 profit, but who knows. I still enjoy the cards for what (I think) they are.

Same with the graded cards. I collect Ozzie Smith, and not to cast aspersions on anyone who might own one, but none of the PSA 10 examples of the 1979 Topps rookie card are as good to the naked eye test as the more recently graded 9s -- but the 10s still sell for 10-50x the price of the 9s, if and when they come up for sale. But yet most of the hobby still values (literally) the opinion of third party graders and, presumably, still enjoys collecting graded cards.

I don't love the potential for fakes and some of the fallacies inherent to third party grading, but I think it's just he mental price of being in the hobby, unfortunately.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bk400

After my return to the hobby a few years ago, I've come to realize that some suspension of disbelief is required to enjoy myself. I know in the back of my mind that there is a chance that the authenticated autograph that I buy is fake. I just purchased a bunch of non-authenticated autographed 1986 Topps Mets cards. I'd like to think that no one is going to bother forging Kevin Mitchell's autograph for a $5 profit, but who knows. I still enjoy the cards for what (I think) they are.

Same with the graded cards. I collect Ozzie Smith, and not to cast aspersions on anyone who might own one, but none of the PSA 10 examples of the 1979 Topps rookie card are as good to the naked eye test as the more recently graded 9s -- but the 10s still sell for 10-50x the price of the 9s, if and when they come up for sale. But yet most of the hobby still values (literally) the opinion of third party graders and, presumably, still enjoys collecting graded cards.

I don't love the potential for fakes and some of the fallacies inherent to third party grading, but I think it's just he mental price of being in the hobby, unfortunately.

Sadly scammers will line up around the block to sell $5 counterfeit autographs. I emailed with former MLBer Brian Holman for a few years. He has/had an amazing collection and he bought a few silly rare cards of himself I had. Brian will go out of his way to sign anything for free. Saying that I have seen a ton of his fake autos that sell for less than $5 each on eBay over the years. There is almost no risk in selling cheap fake autographs.

[balltrash]

My take on this documentary...I believe that it was done by someone who is more recent to this hobby/business rather than a life long collector and viewing through that lense it is easy to see how it took the form(s) that it did. Shame because they got access to some people who really could gave provided some interesting takes and insight. Makes it all seem like a sea of dishonest people with just a few crusaders trying to clean it all up.

And with regard to the forger...this is a card collector board so it can sometimes be hard to see the forest through the trees but I am familiar with his work and this is no master. He took advantage of online selling and uniformed collectors who wanted to get "good deals." You don't need to be a master forger to sell material to people shopping for discounts. That would be akin to a bunch of autograph collectors pointing to Etsy sellers of reprinted baseball cards and proclaiming the sky is falling because people are being duped and spending money on them. And I'd like to see what piece was used as an exemplar. I don't believe that claim.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by tjisonline

I don’t think anything is safe with third party autographs except for those items people know for a fact were signed by athletes. Assume that’s why we always have to remember authenticated autographs or just an opinion.

We probably staring at the tip of an autographed card scandal. Plus it’s not all by scrupulous people. It’s been known for decades that famous athletes such as Willie Mays had their wives signed check, letters, and autographs. Then we hear stories about operational bullpen, the recent alleged Jason Kelce signing scandal w/ a Beckett employee involved.

This is why I stayed away from signed vintage for as long as I did. I've always thought it was hilarious that people think anyone, even the best, can determine with any sort of accuracy at all whether or not a signature is authentic. I would love to see a confusion matrix from a large sample of known authentic and fake autos. I think it would blow everyone's minds.

Bad fakes are obviously easy to detect. I'm sure some signatures are difficult to duplicate, but I'd wager good money that a large percentage of the people reading this thread could duplicate a Mickey Mantle signature after practicing it for an hour and could get it past authentication nearly every time. I know he signed a lot, but I don't think he signed nearly as much as what's out there today. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that half of all signed Mantle cards are fake.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bk400

The funniest part of the documentary was when Jeffrey Lichtman (wearing a Glock T-shirt, no less) is talking about the high profile clients he's defended, contrasts it with his passion for baseball cards, and goes, "...and that's why I'm here...there's no other explanation for why a lawyer, doing the stuff I do, would ever be at -- [pauses and turns to gesture at the motley crew of card convention attendees] -- this ridiculous baseball card national for 3 days."

My favorite part of the Roy Cohn protege's segment was right after this. When after telling everyone how great of a lawyer he is, and how the only reason we see him slumming it in the courts for hobby-related cases is because of his deep love and passion for the hobby and how much he can't stand all the corruption, scams, and scandals in this hobby. Letting us know that this is his way of giving back to a hobby he loves. Then he follows it up by saying he provides defense for these crooks LOLOL.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I'd wager good money that a large percentage of the people reading this thread could duplicate a Mickey Mantle signature after practicing it for an hour and could get it past authentication nearly every time.

Please tell me you're simply pulling our legs with that statement. As someone who has spent nearly his entire life in the study of vintage baseball autographs, I really want to believe that's the case.

If you were serious, and I pray you weren't, perhaps you may wish to conduct that experiment yourself and see how you fare. I would definitely advise against that, but it would certainly be interesting.

[notfast]

Doc was horrible. It was basically a bunch of random YouTube videos loosely tied together.

The guy at the end signing the whiteboard was bad. Those autos wouldn’t pass any authentication and most weren’t even close.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Please tell me you're simply pulling our legs with that statement. As someone who has spent nearly his entire life in the study of vintage baseball autographs, I really want to believe that's the case.

If you were serious, and I pray you weren't, perhaps you may wish to conduct that experiment yourself and see how you fare. I would definitely advise against that, but it would certainly be interesting.

Yes, that is my honest take. I think a lot of people could easily forge an autograph and get it through at both PSA and JSA. And no, I'm not going to try. Although it sounds like they wouldn't be able to get one past you, which is quite impressive.

Originally Posted by notfast

Doc was horrible. It was basically a bunch of random YouTube videos loosely tied together.

That's exactly how I felt when watching it too. I think they used every minute of footage they had. The was no cutting room floor.

[Exhibitman]

Watched it last night. OMG is it boring. 2:30 of documentary that tells about four disjointed stories with some rando talking heads:

--Some kid from Michigan doing breaks and opening a store
--Some forger from Ohio
--Something about some Packer having fun with it
--The Black Swamp Find

All the stories were drawn way out. They spent more time on the forger's life backstory (which no one could possibly give a crap about) than Babe Ruth got from Ken Burns. The BS find was interesting but unbelievably repetitive. They were at the National but they barely used anything from the premier event of the hobby. Made the whole hobby look like a dull, slow money grab.

Not worth the $2.99.

Now, as for Jeff and his practice: we have this discussion every year or two when someone decides to trash talk him for defending big-time criminals, alleged and convicted. Stop it. What he does is as vital to the maintenance of the rule of law as anything a prosecutor or judge does. If you get caught up in the meat grinder of the criminal justice system and the entire force of the state is against you, guys like Jeff are critical to keeping the government honest. If I had my tit in a wringer in NY I'd retain him in a heartbeat (assuming I could afford him)

[Kevin Savage]

Watched the documentary last night. Mixed reviews- kind of jumped all over the place- but I learned some things I didn't know- so that is good. The Black Swamp stuff was enlightening- since the Heritage Boys pulled that one out of my backyard...... but I will get over it....eventually haha.....

The autograph forgery stuff was kind of depressing- but an interesting story.

Not a date night flick.... in my opinion... my wife fell asleep 15 minutes in....I don't think the rotten tomatoes score is going to be too high....

[homerunhitter]

……And the hits on the hobby keep coming! As I just read that PSA is now decertifying a lot of slabs that contain altered cards. That is a good thing for the hobby but sucks if you buy a graded card on eBay, then years later PSA decides to decertify it, you are left holding the hot potato!

Do we now have to look up PSA cert numbers first before we buy it? Ain’t no one got time for that!

It’s all a big mess that will come to a head one day…soon! With autographs being forged, to TPAs not being reliable, to cards being counterfeited, altered, trimmed to now PSA is decertifying certs. What’s left to collect when there is issues with everything in the hobby it seems! Yikes!

[balltrash]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Bad fakes are obviously easy to detect. I'm sure some signatures are difficult to duplicate, but I'd wager good money that a large percentage of the people reading this thread could duplicate a Mickey Mantle signature after practicing it for an hour and could get it past authentication nearly every time. I know he signed a lot, but I don't think he signed nearly as much as what's out there today. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that half of all signed Mantle cards are fake.

Standing offer of $500 cash to any member of this board who can forge a Mickey Mantle autograph and get it authenticated by PSA, JSA, or Beckett. Forward me a video of you doing the forging and the piece after it is authenticated and it will evidently be the easiest money you have ever made given that it should only take an hour to perfect.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by balltrash

Standing offer of $500 cash to any member of this board who can forge a Mickey Mantle autograph and get it authenticated by PSA, JSA, or Beckett. Forward me a video of you doing the forging and the piece after it is authenticated and it will evidently be the easiest money you have ever made given that it should only take an hour to perfect.

$500 and a decade prison sentence.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

$500 and a decade prison sentence.

Provided the piece was never sold as genuine, no crime would have actually been committed.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

……And the hits on the hobby keep coming! As I just read that PSA is now decertifying a lot of slabs that contain altered cards. That is a good thing for the hobby but sucks if you buy a graded card on eBay, then years later PSA decides to decertify it, you are left holding the hot potato!

Do we now have to look up PSA cert numbers first before we buy it? Ain’t no one got time for that!

It’s all a big mess that will come to a head one day…soon! With autographs being forged, to TPAs not being reliable, to cards being counterfeited, altered, trimmed to now PSA is decertifying certs. What’s left to collect when there is issues with everything in the hobby it seems! Yikes!

When does the PSA 8 Wagner get decertified? Till then to me it is just window dressing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

……And the hits on the hobby keep coming! As I just read that PSA is now decertifying a lot of slabs that contain altered cards. That is a good thing for the hobby but sucks if you buy a graded card on eBay, then years later PSA decides to decertify it, you are left holding the hot potato!

Do we now have to look up PSA cert numbers first before we buy it? Ain’t no one got time for that!

It’s all a big mess that will come to a head one day…soon! With autographs being forged, to TPAs not being reliable, to cards being counterfeited, altered, trimmed to now PSA is decertifying certs. What’s left to collect when there is issues with everything in the hobby it seems! Yikes!

It might take 10 seconds to look up a PSA cert. You must be really busy or something.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

When does the PSA 8 Wagner get decertified? Till then to me it is just window dressing.

On the 13th of Never.

[homerunhitter]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It might take 10 seconds to look up a PSA cert. You must be really busy or something.

No, not at all. Just never looked one up. Don’t know the process but thank you for schooling me!