More interest in raw cards in 2024 - Observations

[parkplace33]

In the last month or two, I have seen many, many posts (here and online) about collectors and dealers wanting to buy vintage raw cards and only raw cards.

Similarly, at the card shows that I went to this year, vintage raw cards seemed to be more in demand than graded cards.

Anyone else seeing a resurgence in raw cards this year? Of course, AHs will continue to have graded cards, but I am talking in other areas.

[jingram058]

Graded cards are for people who care about money, for some sense of protection or insurance. Obviously, expensive as some of these cards are, that's a given.

I'm not collecting cards or memorabilia or anything else for some sort of investment purposes, or to bequeath to anyone when I croak. I don't care about the grade, and I don't want the slabs. I don't want to know if my cards are trimmed, or creased in some way I can't see, or even if they're fake. I don't believe they are, and that's all I care about. And, most importantly, I can afford raw cards.

[Smarti5051]

I suspect a decent amount of raw card buying is from buyers who are trying to find value buys with the intention of submitting the cards for grading in the hopes of increasing the resale value.

[JollyElm]

True collectors (whatever that means) aside, I see the 'turn and flip' mindset as a big factor in making people target unslabbed cards. Profit, profit, profit.

582. Tacticalculus
Quickly crunching the numbers to determine if the price of an ungraded card is a good deal, based on what its value would be if it came back from a TPG at the grade it ‘unquestionably deserves.’

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

I suspect a decent amount of raw card buying is from buyers who are trying to find value buys with the intention of submitting the cards for grading in the hopes of increasing the resale value.

This. One guy spent nearly an hour at my table last weekend methodically working through a stack of cards with a lighted loupe. When he finally purchased a few I said "good luck on the 10's".

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

I suspect a decent amount of raw card buying is from buyers who are trying to find value buys with the intention of submitting the cards for grading in the hopes of increasing the resale value.

With all the amazing how-to videos out there showing how to get better grades it makes sense. Plus the real money isn't in buying/selling PSA graded cards. The real money is getting cards into high(er) graded PSA slabs.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

I suspect a decent amount of raw card buying is from buyers who are trying to find value buys with the intention of submitting the cards for grading in the hopes of increasing the resale value.

This. Todays raw gems...become tomorrow's high grade altered gold.

[bmattioli]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Graded cards are for people who care about money, for some sense of protection or insurance. Obviously, expensive as some of these cards are, that's a given.

I'm not collecting cards or memorabilia or anything else for some sort of investment purposes, or to bequeath to anyone when I croak. I don't care about the grade, and I don't want the slabs. I don't want to know if my cards are trimmed, or creased in some way I can't see, or even if they're fake. I don't believe they are, and that's all I care about. And, most importantly, I can afford raw cards.

I'm with you.. I am a collector and do not sell..

[ullmandds]

Buying raw is one of the only economical options in the hobby today. I kinda have 2 collections...a graded one...and a raw one.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

This. One guy spent nearly an hour at my table last weekend methodically working through a stack of cards with a lighted loupe. When he finally purchased a few I said "good luck on the 10's".

You should have increased your price on them and thanked him for grading them for you.

[todeen]

My Barry Larkin collection is for my enjoyment only. Nobody who visits me will ever care about a PSA 10, let alone do they even care about Barry Larkin. I do not have a card collecting friend. So for whom do I need to buy a graded 10 for if I can't show it off? Its better than to have a nice raw copy for my personal checklist and to move on.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

[brianp-beme]

I think my card qualifies as a graded card. Then again, the fancy 'F' might instead mean I need to repeat the 'Raw Card Identification' class.

obakfsb303.jpg

Brian

[raulus]

Seems like a confluence of factors at play here.

Certainly the relative affordability of raw is a major factor. As others have noted, opportunism can also be a factor, with a plan to flip the raw pieces into highly graded slabs and turn a quick profit.

The OP mentioned dealers clamoring for raw. My sense is that when it comes to dealers, there’s a better opportunity to acquire raw cards at a reasonable price, and retail them with enough margin to continue to stay in business. With graded cards, the market is a bit different, simply because that market tends to operate more efficiently in many ways, making it a bit more difficult for a dealer to really have a solid margin short of resorting to museum pricing.

Finally, the OP mentioned shows. For buyers, this provides an opportunity to personally inspect the merchandise prior to buying, just to evaluate whether it’s legit and unaltered (at least in the opinion of the buyer), and whether the condition meets the buyer’s needs. Online sales do not afford this same luxury for personal inspection. As we have seen recently, even online AH scans don’t always convey every defect.

Of course, you also have some substantial portion of our world that just plain prefers raw. Some of that may be due to nostalgia, economics, disillusionment with the TPGs, aesthetics, weight, or even confidence in our abilities to perform our own evaluation without assistance from some assumedly undertrained grader wearing green eye shades in far off places.

As the WSJ headline would say, Raw is having a moment!

[TMKenKen]

Dealers will only deal if they get them cheap. That includes anything in the 50s through 75. Never had them offer value even in a trade. And they are in the business to make money. I get it. Even traders seem to approach it the same way. I have tons from the 50's and 60's many quite nice. Not sure what I can do with them though. Though I do have one grandson who actually seems to have a collector's attitude, but even he talks regularly about value. Sigh!

[Directly]

I've heard the next generation remark if it not graded something is wrong with the card--I assume he was referring to modern--I know my nephews son ( 2 nd generation will not buy ungraded cards) If selling the grade can help with negotiation, and with no returns--'

Raw for price, collecting or submitting--graded for collecting, selling, help establish a value.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Directly

I've heard the next generation remark if it not graded something is wrong with the card--I assume he was referring to modern--I know my nephews son ( 2 nd generation will not buy ungraded cards) If selling the grade can help with negotiation, and with no returns--'

Raw for price, collecting or submitting--graded for collecting, selling, help establish a value.

yes...the younger "collectors" are more of the mindset that if it's not graded there's something wrong with it...imo because they are not knowledgable to ascertain legitimacy themselves...they believe PSA is GOD!

[GrewUpWithJunkWax]

Glad to buy raw from reputable dealers, but graded can be fine too. Main thing is it's a card I like at a price I can afford.

I have not submitted anything for grading, and don't really have any interest in that. I plan to keep my cards a long time. Why have them graded now, if the next big thing comes along in a few years. Perhaps AI becomes a new standard. The major graders probably aren't going anywhere, but at the very least flips/cases change, and there are perceptions of those that can affect values on the market when it finally is time to sell.

[Rich Falvo]

I'm a little bit of a purist, so I'd love to take a stand and say I'm only buying raw cards. Realistically, though, with having to buy most of my cards from a distance without being able to view in person, I prefer to buy graded.

[campyfan39]

As one who only collects pure, "raw" cards, I will buy an occasional entombed and opined upon one only to crack it out if the price is right.
A problem I see at shows and ebay is that dealers are now charging graded prices for really nice ungraded cards. They assume the person is buying it to grade and flip it. Just another reason I detest what the "hobby" is becoming. But I can't stop collecting ha.

[Fred]

My assumption has been that raw cards will sell at a discount because at TPG hasn't blessed/anointed it. If the card is in really nice shape and not entombed then the thought is people might assume the card will not pass a TPG review and receive a nice numerical grade, rather than the dreaded AUTH or ALT or whatever it is people really try to avoid.

Is the climate towards raw cards warming up and now they are becoming valued at a perceived value based on what the seller believes the card may grade? Add to that, are people, now, paying the price for raw cards at the perceived possible grade it might receive from a TPG?

IF the answer to the above two questions is "yes", then the sellers have the buyers exactly where they want them.

[Exhibitman]

The business end of this hobby always has been and always will be about money. Let's not kid ourselves.

Many collectors moved to raw cards during the backlog and stayed there in response to the high cost of grading. It was different when there were low cost specials. Sure, I would drop eight bucks plus shipping to get a bunch of $200-ish vintage cards slabbed. 4% was reasonable. But at $18.99 per card now (9.5%), not so much. It just eats up too much of the margin, especially when online sales costs are factored in.

[seanofjapan]

I’m a “mid grade” vintage collector so I almost never buy graded cards. It just doesn’t make much sense since the financial incentives for cards in high grade don’t exist for us guys collecting “presentable looking cards in the vg to vg-ex range”, so why bother?

Plus I hate the way cards look in PSA or SCG holders, its like they permanently afixed a label for prescription medication onto the top of your card and whenever you look at your card you also have to look at that. Raw cards are just a million times more attractive to behold. And flip through. And display. And put into binder pages. And take them out of binder pages whenever you feel like.

Of course if my budget was such that I was spending thousands of dollars on individual cards I’d probably be singing a different tune, but I’m quite happy with my raw cards…..

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

I’m a “mid grade” vintage collector so I almost never buy graded cards. It just doesn’t make much sense since the financial incentives for cards in high grade don’t exist for us guys collecting “presentable looking cards in the vg to vg-ex range”, so why bother?

Plus I hate the way cards look in PSA or SCG holders, its like they permanently afixed a label for prescription medication onto the top of your card and whenever you look at your card you also have to look at that. Raw cards are just a million times more attractive to behold. And flip through. And display. And put into binder pages. And take them out of binder pages whenever you feel like.

Of course if my budget was such that I was spending thousands of dollars on individual cards I’d probably be singing a different tune, but I’m quite happy with my raw cards…..

+1

I like "One-Touch" Holders a lot more than slabs with those bar-coded "prescriptions" permanently affixed to the top. Aside from the randomly assigned number grades, the flips contrast with the vintage beauty of the card itself (and serve to sterilize the overall appearance).

That said, I really wish they'd come out with a One-Touch holder made to fit 33-34 Goudey, Diamond Stars, Play Ball, and other unique sizes that are missing. I keep waiting, but to no avail.

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by perezfan

+1

I like "One-Touch" Holders a lot more than slabs with those bar-coded "prescriptions" permanently affixed to the top. Aside from the randomly assigned number grades, the flips contrast with the vintage beauty of the card itself (and serve to sterilize the overall appearance).

That said, I really wish they'd come out with a One-Touch holder made to fit 33-34 Goudey, Diamond Stars, Play Ball, and other unique sizes that are missing. I keep waiting, but to no avail.

There are some by ProMold.

[Gorditadogg]

I collect mostly raw, and I don't see any increase in the number of raw cards at the shows I attend. The prices of raw cards online have gone up, at least for the ones I collect, so either there are less raw cards available or more collectors chasing them.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[ClementeFanOh]

Hmm...Raw still vastly outnumbers slabbed, so by pure numbers raw will
win the day. Aside from purists who pull out a crucifix upon seeing a slabbed
card, I agree that many folks shop raw in the hope of soon getting it slabbed.

There was a comment above that graded cards are "only for people who
care about money". I find that strange, as it's an absolute and thus incorrect
from the start. I'll also point out that people who buy raw (includes me) also
"care about money". It's just an odd remark. I've collected for 4+ decades,
and enjoy it whether I'm buying raw or slabbed.

Trent King

[raulus]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

There was a comment above that graded cards are "only for people who
care about money". I find that strange, as it's an absolute and thus incorrect
from the start.

I'm sure we're all thinking it...

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Hmm...Raw still vastly outnumbers slabbed, so by pure numbers raw will
win the day. Aside from purists who pull out a crucifix upon seeing a slabbed
card, I agree that many folks shop raw in the hope of soon getting it slabbed.

There was a comment above that graded cards are "only for people who
care about money". I find that strange, as it's an absolute and thus incorrect
from the start. I'll also point out that people who buy raw (includes me) also
"care about money". It's just an odd remark. I've collected for 4+ decades,
and enjoy it whether I'm buying raw or slabbed.

Trent King

If you don't care about some sort of future value, why then have them graded? Only other reason is you worry about authenticity. As stated, I don't care about that. I don't believe mine are fake, but if they are, no one except me is ever going to care. I've stated this on this forum until I'm blue in the face - I am not an investor. I care only about having the cards I want as a collector or hobbyist. Look at several responses here. I'm not the only one. Everyone I know and associate with in this hobby deals only with raw cards, and look at graded cards as, to us, unnecessarily expensive and not our bag. I don't need or want plastic encased cards. To me, that's no hobby. Your situation is obviously somehow different.

[ClementeFanOh]

James- “everyone” you know and associate with deals in raw? Okay. The thing is, since you only deal with raw cards, you still “care about money”- you care about spending less (apparently). I’ve got plenty of raw cards that hold memories for me, and fewer slabbed that likewise hold memory. Today I bought a PSA 5 1970 Topps Bob Gibson for the whopping sum of $25. I didn’t do it because I think it’s value will go through the roof, but rather because it’s a gorgeous card of a great player. The notion of knowing “everyone’s” motivations is a bit…ambitious, isn’t it? Trent King

[Leon]

I collect baseball cards. IF they come in plastic, fine. If they don't, fine.

[brianp-beme]

I believe it is all about the group scan. Folks have realized that the scanning process is so much nicer and less time consuming when scanning raw cards. Heck, you can bunch up cards close together without all the hassle of endless cropping. And not having to buy an extra pricey fancy-dancy scanner capable of creating good graded card group scans is a bonus as well.

In fact, it is the only reason I collect cards anymore. Ungraded cards present me with the endless one and done group scan opportunities that only the un-slabbed can offer.

I have included an example raw card group scan to offer a visual of the benefits available for those seeking a simplified collecting life through scanning. Also this scan highlights just how desirable beat up raw cards can appear with just such a slap-it-on-a-scanner mentality. I imagine its laser-like intensity is practically burning holes into your collective retinas as you experience it.


Brian

[raulus]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

James- “everyone” you know and associate with deals in raw? Okay. The thing is, since you only deal with raw cards, you still “care about money”- you care about spending less (apparently). I’ve got plenty of raw cards that hold memories for me, and fewer slabbed that likewise hold memory. Today I bought a PSA 5 1970 Topps Bob Gibson for the whopping sum of $25. I didn’t do it because I think it’s value will go through the roof, but rather because it’s a gorgeous card of a great player. The notion of knowing “everyone’s” motivations is a bit…ambitious, isn’t it? Trent King

When will you people learn?

There are only two ways to collect:

My way, and

The wrong way.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by raulus

When will you people learn?

There are only two ways to collect:

My way, and

The wrong way.

There is a third option: My wrong way


Brian

[ALR-bishop]

When did grading start ? I first started collecting cards in 1957 and have been at it with a few interruptions since. I collect all Topps (48-2023), Bowman ( 48-55) and Fleer (1923 and 1959-2007) sets. Much or most accumulated before 1990. And I have no idea why I keep doing it at this stage in life. I have thought about selling but my wife says it would give me too much free time around the house

[raulus]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

When did grading start ? I first started collecting cards in 1957 and have been at it with a few interruptions since. I collect all Topps (48-2023), Bowman ( 48-55) and Fleer (1923 and 1959-2007) sets. Much or most accumulated before 1990. And I have no idea why I keep doing it at this stage in life. I have thought about selling but my wife says it would give me too much free time around the house

If the internet is to be believed, then July 1991 was when PSA started grading.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

James- “everyone” you know and associate with deals in raw? Okay. The thing is, since you only deal with raw cards, you still “care about money”- you care about spending less (apparently). I’ve got plenty of raw cards that hold memories for me, and fewer slabbed that likewise hold memory. Today I bought a PSA 5 1970 Topps Bob Gibson for the whopping sum of $25. I didn’t do it because I think it’s value will go through the roof, but rather because it’s a gorgeous card of a great player. The notion of knowing “everyone’s” motivations is a bit…ambitious, isn’t it? Trent King

Trent, here's the thing. All my cards are raw. I like being able to hold them from time to time. I've had a few graded cards, encased in slabs. I didn't care for that, so I cracked them out. I have made a number of trades, both here where I live, in person, and on this net54 forum. All raw cards; Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Koufax and many others that would potentially grade and thus be worth quite a bit to those of us who are less well-heeled. The collectors I know around here are just like me. They desire only raw cards. I have one friend who has an entire 2 car garage full of highly organized cards including vintage and pre-war, floor to ceiling, all raw. The one person on this forum that I personally truly miss is Ted Z. I know he had graded cards, but he also had many raw, and he understood why someone would want them that way. I don't concern myself with value, or investment, or bequeathing them to someone. My wife and daughter feel the same. We're not looking to pay off the mortgage via baseball cards. The OP forwarded a question about raw, and I felt compelled to throw in my 2 worthless cents because, frankly, the graded aficionados here very clearly outnumber the raw. It's just how it is. I don't begrudge anyone's reasons for wanting their cards graded. Unlike the posters above who don't get it, it's not my way or the highway. It's just not my thing.

[darwinbulldog]

I don't really do any buying or selling in person. I figure most collectors would prefer graded if buying online and don't really care if buying in person (apart from grades of 9 or higher).

[Touch'EmAll]

Yes, the 1970 Bob Gibson card is a beauty. The colors just pop and can look dripping wet with a nice copy.

[Schlesinj]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

I think my card qualifies as a graded card. Then again, the fancy 'F' might instead mean I need to repeat the 'Raw Card Identification' class.

Attachment 611186

Brian

Board purchase. A few years ago.

image.jpg

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Schlesinj

Board purchase. A few years ago.

Attachment 611435

Looks like the back of that Obak failed the Raw Card Identification course as well. What would F. Scott Fitzgerald think?

Brian

[StraightRaceCards]

Most of my favorite buys have been raw cards

Easy to appreciate them more when you can put your hands on them and get a feel for the card

That being said, I do love to grade for protection, authenticity, and to make it easier to pass along should something happen to me.

Bought my first Clemente raw last year and Kaline this year at the Dallas show. Thrilled to pick them up.

Bottom line, Any card is a great card!

[homerunhitter]

Raw cards are making a comeback!

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Looks like the back of that Obak failed the Raw Card Identification course as well. What would F. Scott Fitzgerald think?

Brian

You need to ask "The Great Gatsby" if he collects raw or slabbed.

[conor912]

I refuse to let my collection consist of more plastic than cardboard.

[dougscats]

Aside from the aesthetics, cost, and many of the points James has made at length, there is an important practical factor that greatly favors collecting raw: viewing and reviewing one’s collection.

I can’t overstate what a pleasure it is to flip through my binder of T206’s whenever I want. I have about 850 in one book, probably weighs 5-10 pounds, and it’s portable; I can take it with me. How many pounds would 850 slabs weigh? And they’d fill up a trunk. How do you guys look at your collections? I have a few dozen slabs, including some of the most expensive ones. I don’t break them out anymore because of cost, but I hardly ever look at them.

And while cost is a primary practical factor for me, I like to be able to touch a card, to get a sense of that past.

One other point: It would seem to me that the pool of ungraded cards is ever decreasing; i.e., more of them are getting slabbed every day than are getting broken out. I would say it’s harder today to collect decent condition ungraded cards than when I started out. Food for thought here.

[ClementeFanOh]

I see the thread has been resurrected, which is cool. Someone above
stated that raw cards are making a comeback. Truthfully, they never left
the hobby. The vast majority of existing cards are raw. There are plenty of raw
even at shows where slabs tend to draw more eyes than normal. I really enjoy
picking up a desirable raw card as a "want" or a "need". It's all fun

Trent King

[jingram058]

The area where I live, Naples-Fort Myers-Cape Coral-Punta Gorda-Port Charlotte, everyone I trade with and associate with are raw cards people. There is a huge flea market here, Flea Masters, and there are a couple of snow birds who sell cards including vintage. They have some graded, but mainly raw. A couple of shops sell cards including some vintage, and they are all graded and in my view, wildly over-priced. Since the same cards are always there, I assume that to be the case. Finally, there is one consignment antique mall with 2 card sellers. One has an extensive collection of 1950s Topps and Bowman, but he wants mint price for beaters. The other has similar, but with realistic prices. I obtained a number of the 1962 Topps I needed for my low-grade complete set from him, including Rookie Parade Uecker, for something like $5. The only place that graded cards rule in my world is here on net54. I don't go to shows anymore; too far away. One of my friends here has an entire garage full of raw cards, climate controlled, professionally stored and inventoried.

[abmchenry]

Have been thinking about this as well. I'm starting to (slowly and cost-consciously) go after raw tobacco and candy cards almost exclusively. Main reason being, I've seen posts on net54 and on social media of binder-based collections where the cards can be viewed and handled, they were amazing, and I was envious. I'm buying raw cards with zero intent of ever putting them in slabs.

Really good point Doug...with all of the hype around grading pre-war cards for profit, I've also wondered if the supply of raw T206s, etc., is going to decrease noticeably. This must surely be happening, to what extent I don't know.

My only *minor* hesitation with buying raw T206 is that I don't have confidence in my own abilities to spot a convincing fake.

[Gorditadogg]

98% of the cards I have are raw. Of course this includes my run of 1980s Topps sets. In terms of value, it's about 50/50 between raw and graded.

I do have some expensive cards in one-touch holders, but at a certain price level, I feel better if they are slabbed.

I like the idea of having your cards in binders so you can flip through them, and that would be fine for my lower grade sets, like my 52T. Even then, though, I would want to keep the key cards slabbed, or holdered.

For my higher graded sets, I don't trust myself arranging and rearranging them in binders. It's too easy to scrape or ding a card in the process. Those cards stay in their card savers or slabs.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[raulus]

Originally Posted by dougscats

Aside from the aesthetics, cost, and many of the points James has made at length, there is an important practical factor that greatly favors collecting raw: viewing and reviewing one’s collection.
.

I probably have a smaller collection than most, but it’s definitely possible to enjoy slabbed cards.