Graded vs. Raw Rant.......

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I guess it depends on where and in what you deal. What I have seen on whatnot is that most cards are sold raw, even the more expensive ones, but we are not talking 1933 Goudey Ruths. Also, eBay is a huge raw card market. I run collector grade baseball at $0.99 starting price auctions and some of them get very solid prices. There is always a market for collector grade cards for collectors who work with a budget, even in a recession. When I do shows, the boxes of modestly priced raw cards are what sell consistently. Last show I did was in August and I sold yards of them, literally. I had to go back to the office after first day and reload my sorting boxes because I got cleaned out the first day. You wanna see the perpetually busy tables at the National, look for the pickers' booths.

Great points, and also exemplifies how the hobby is and will continue to be doing well, even should the higher-end, higher-priced graded card market ever suffer and start coming down. The collector base is there, and will continue to be there, for at least quite some time to come.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by BobC

Great points, and also exemplifies how the hobby is and will continue to be doing well, even should the higher-end, higher-priced graded card market ever suffer and start coming down. The collector base is there, and will continue to be there, for at least quite some time to come.

Even in 2008-2009, and that was the worst time I can recall in terms of activity.

[Jenx34]

I'm not sure if my take is unique, but I'll add my thoughts anyway.
On Graded cards
Personally my collection, outside of sets, which I am very limited in, when I buy a raw card it either goes into the pile to be graded or to be sold. I'm talking Vintage. If a card is worthy of keeping (with few exceptions), it should be graded. For preservation, primarily, but not just that. I generally like cards with a certain level of eye appeal and that tends to bottom at around a 4 or higher. Granted, my '53 Topps Paige is a 2.5 and one of my favorite cards, so it's not all black and white. I was always a corners guy so sharp corners and great color were more important than centering. That has begun to shift, but not all the say, so now I find the minimum quality of card I prefer a little higher grade than before. In general, I typically would buy 50's and 60's cards in the 4-6/7 range and 70's in the 6-9 range (more on 70's later)

On Buying Raw Cards
Again, establishing that I am a bit of a condition snob and do plan to get most keepers graded. Most raw cards I find at a show or LCS, and Ebay (separate discussion), are not the quality they are sold as, at least not relative to a graded card scale. My biggest issue is with my eyes. In most places I'm viewing raw cards, the lighting is not proper, there isn't a good background, etc. I carry a handheld magnifying glass, but still it's not the same looking at it as when I'm at home using the proper lighting and tools. Almost every time I get a card home and find flaws I didn't see when buying. By all of the threads/comments I see on various sources, of people complaining about the grades they get from PSA/SGC, I suspect that I am far from the minority in that my eyes can't catch enough in a live situation. So I will buy raw cards, but I am very hesitant and guarded when doing so. I know some don't care if a card is EX vs. NM if it looks good. I'm not wired that way. If I am going to pay NM pricing, I want to know that it is at least that. Too many cards are overpriced, and I suspect more for the reasons above than dishonesty. In general, we all think our cards are better than they probably are. And that's probably the biggest reason grading cards became a thing in the first place. The same reason coins, comic books, etc. are graded. There has to be a way to separate a very nice looking item from an elite item.

On Grading 70's Cards
I believe what most are missing here is the effect of Father Time. 1970's cards are now entering the 50 years old range. While you can find nice EX-EXMT examples, I submit there are FAR fewer examples that would grade in the 7-9 range, especially earlier in the decade). I really believe that buying stars in the 7-9 range right now is a great spot for upcoming growth. Think about it. The 70's are 2 decades behind the 50s and one behind the 60s and have great stars to collect. In 10-20 years from now, people will look back on that decade and remember it fondly and with nostalgia, just as they do the 50's and 60's now. As the OP said, it's easy to find EX+ condition in those cards. But is it really easy to find true NM and above condition and know they'll be kept that way? So I do think 70's graded cards are a good thing, at least in terms of the stars and in higher grades. I also agree that getting a card graded that's EX and gets a 5 probably isn't worth doing. Yet, anyway.

[homerunhitter]

Absolutely wonderful write up Chris. Is was very helpful. You answered a question that I was going to ask so thank you! That question was, was is an "acceptable" grade for topps vintage that most people look for. for 50s, 60s, and 70s, and you broke it down perfectly. now i know how to focus my searching for vintage topps graded cards.

I do find interesting that while searching for a card that I like on ebay, I found one in a psa 4 and one in a psa 6, the interesting part is the psa 4 looked better and had better centering than the psa 6! I was going to buy the psa 6 but then realized that the psa 4 had better eye appeal and coloring!

[Jenx34]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

Absolutely wonderful write up Chris. Is was very helpful. You answered a question that I was going to ask so thank you! That question was, was is an "acceptable" grade for topps vintage that most people look for. for 50s, 60s, and 70s, and you broke it down perfectly. now i know how to focus my searching for vintage topps graded cards.

I do find interesting that while searching for a card that I like on ebay, I found one in a psa 4 and one in a psa 6, the interesting part is the psa 4 looked better and had better centering than the psa 6! I was going to buy the psa 6 but then realized that the psa 4 had better eye appeal and coloring!

I'm going to try not to be as wordy this time. Two things....
1. The biggest caveat I have is to buy what you like, and don't focus on the grade too much. Some people enjoy buying older cards in 1s and 2s because they are affordable and it allows them to buy more cards. Theoretically, you can always upgrade later, so the theory is get in the door and buy a card you want even in a lower grade. But the most important thing is buy what you like. As an investment, it gets a little more cloudy. I think you're good with Star HOF's in most any grade pre-1970s. In the '70's I'd stick to higher grades when possible, but I'm convinced that 20 years from now, PSA 4s and 5s of Pete Rose, Nolan Ryan, George Brett, etc. will be in demand and have value.
2. Cards can earn a grade for a few reasons. It can be one single flaw that lands a card at a certain grade level, or several minor flaws that on their own wouldn't add up to much. Combine that with centering and you can definitely find lower graded cards that look better than a higher graded example. That's why buying the card is so important and making sure you like it. A 70/30 centered card won't look as nice as a 55/45 card when holding it in front of you, assuming there are no major flaws on either surface. But that 70/30 card may have nice crisp corners and little edge wear, whereas the 55/45 could have softer corners and more edge wear. In the end, they may attain the same grade. The key is which looks good to you. To my eyes, 80% of cards look EXMT-NM when held at arms length, which is why I look closer. For me, balancing what a card would grade with eye appeal is the sweet spot. For someone else it may be all about eye appeal or simply about owning that card. To someone else they may be fixated on a possible grade only. There are lots of different flavors and why this hobby is great, because not everyone collects the same way.

[Lucas00]

I only have a few words to say on Graded vs Raw. My philosophy is this,
You can always Break a graded card out. So it doesn't matter if the card is graded or not, I see them as the same thing. Just a fancier Top loader that is sealed

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

You can always Break a graded card out. So it doesn't matter if the card is graded or not, I see them as the same thing. Just a fancier Top loader that is sealed

Exactly. For pretty much this reason, I've never bought the "preservation" argument for grading. A PSA slab does not protect your card more than putting it in a One Touch and sealing that up in a bag. It just doesn't. And even with toploaders and card savers, unless you are just a novice that doesn't know what you are doing - your cards are going to be extremely well protected assuming you don't leave them out in the rain or in a shed with a leaky roof or something.

Yes, grading preserves cards, but you don't have to put cards only in holders they can't be taken out of to preserve them either.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

I only have a few words to say on Graded vs Raw. My philosophy is this,
You can always Break a graded card out. So it doesn't matter if the card is graded or not, I see them as the same thing. Just a fancier Top loader that is sealed

Nice to know I'm not the only collector who's had that thought.

[G1911]

Only a crazy person would break a graded card out of a slab.

[rugbymarine]

Originally Posted by G1911

Only a crazy person would break a graded card out of a slab.

That is a great picture!

[homerunhitter]

Good to see that both graded and raw are in demand!

[homerunhitter]

But now hearing that fake graded cards are flooding the hobby now.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

But now hearing that fake graded cards are flooding the hobby now.

Fake or altered?

And just how flooding is flooding?

Certainly there are reports about graded altered cards (with number grades) being ubiquitous. I think there's room to debate precisely how ubiquitous they are. And we each have our theories, which tend to run the gamut.

Graded fakes seem less likely to be flooding in. My sense is it's more of a trickle, at least relative to the overall volume of graded cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

But now hearing that fake graded cards are flooding the hobby now.

Could you be more vague?

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

But now hearing that fake graded cards are flooding the hobby now.

Fake cards in genuine holders (the TPG graded a fake)

...or...

Cards in fake holders (someone manufactured a counterfeit slab)?


EDITED to add: I'm asking the group, not just the anonymous user who apparently spotted some flooding.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Fake cards in genuine holders (the TPG graded a fake)

...or...

Cards in fake holders (someone manufactured a counterfeit slab)?


EDITED to add: I'm asking the group, not just the anonymous user who apparently spotted some flooding.

I think we've seen some cards in counterfeit slabs. Probably not enough to constitute flooding. But it's certainly not zero.

I thought I heard somewhere that some goons were running around with their own supply of slabs and a machine for making it happen.

From what I've seen, the cards they snuck into those slabs, when closely inspected, suggested that there was clearly a problem. Cards that should grade at maybe a 5, but were in a 9 slab, etc. Before one of the TPG haters suggests that even the genuine ones experience this overgrading phenomenon, my experience is that such an extreme outcome is a real outlier.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I think we've seen some cards in counterfeit slabs. Probably not enough to constitute flooding. But it's certainly not zero.

I thought I heard somewhere that some goons were running around with their own supply of slabs and a machine for making it happen.

From what I've seen, the cards they snuck into those slabs, when closely inspected, suggested that there was clearly a problem. Cards that should grade at maybe a 5, but were in a 9 slab, etc. Before one of the TPG haters suggests that even the genuine ones experience this overgrading phenomenon, my experience is that such an extreme outcome is a real outlier.

Yes there are several posts on this forum about "Copperfield" and his scam out of Mexico, including one about a recent arrest of a guy in Denver. I helped out a guy who bought what was almost certainly one of these cards out of a Goodwin auction. As I discovered, it had the same cert as a completely different and clearly legit card with the same grade, and obviously Copperfield had replicated the cert on an inferior card. To our shock, PSA blessed the card and put it in a new cert. A true WTF moment.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I helped out a guy who bought what was almost certainly one of these cards out of a Goodwin auction. As I discovered, it had the same cert as a completely different and clearly legit card with the same grade, and obviously Copperfield had replicated the cert on an inferior card. To our shock, PSA blessed the card and put it in a new cert. A true WTF moment.

The last part seems pretty nuts. Maybe they assumed some sort of database entry problem, and just went on their merry way with processing it into a new cert? Even if that were the case, I would expect they would look at those a bit more closely for these types of shenanigans.

[homerunhitter]

weekend bump!

[homerunhitter]

here is a question that I saw on another message board.

for those that like graded vintage, do you prefer PSA or SGC?

[Exhibitman]

Whichever is cheaper if the cards are comparable. As a collector, it is a blondes or brunettes question.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

here is a question that I saw on another message board.

for those that like graded vintage, do you prefer PSA or SGC?

I'm fine with either. To me, the card inside the holder is the important thing.

I'm typically buying cards in the $50-$500 range, if that data makes a difference.

[homerunhitter]

any new updates to this thread? thanks

[rnocards]

I collect both raw and graded, but I'm always looking to grade my worthy raw cards. Recently, I've sent a few of those raw cards to the players for their autos (TTM), and will then submit them to PSA for dual grading.

The newer generation is preferring graded cards, for various reasons, and there will come a time when my collection will have to be passed on, so it's best for this collection to be in graded slabs, as much as possible.

[ALR-bishop]

I have ungraded most graded cards I have purchased . Whoever ends up with my cards will just have to deal with the lack of plastic Hate to think how much all my cards graded would weigh.

[rnocards]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I have ungraded most graded cards I have purchased . Whoever ends up with my cards will just have to deal with the lack of plastic Hate to think how much all my cards graded would weigh.

You cracked them because of weight?

[G1911]

I crack graded cards because of the weight. I can carry more from my storage area to my card table area if they are raw. Things may be different for more muscular vintage collectors if they exist.

[ALR-bishop]

If you collect all of the Topps, , Bowman and Fleer sets, the weight becomes a very hefty factor, in more ways than one

[jchcollins]

Yeah, graded cards get heavy. But then again so do some of my nicer raw items that I keep in One Touch mag cases.

I would never try to collect an entire vintage set graded, but that's just me. I get why some would, especially if higher end - but I don't have that kind of money to put into grading personally, and not enough room likely to store all the cards if I happened to come across them in a windfall - so pretty much a moot point.

To me the weight of the things I do own is largely a moot point as well. I have enough room to store it all - I mean the wife complains sometimes about all these large white boxes, but she hasn't asked me to get rid of anything yet - and even individual slabs and One Touches allow me to enjoy just a few cards at a time here and there - which seems to be my MO for enjoying my collection lately.

[Exhibitman]

Hate to be that guy but the decision to grade has to be data driven. Used to be you could wait for a $6 or $8 PSA bulk special and get a lot of stuff graded economically. Some items it really acts as a multiplier, others it doesn't break even under today's grading cost structure.

[hawaiian bam bam]

lately on social media/message boards, I see so many graded cards and pelican cases talk everywhere. It makes me wonder if in the future raw cards will be frowned upon by collectors as it seems everyone in the hobby likes psa graded cards! like many of you, growing up, graded cards werent a thing. you had raw cards and raw cards only! I miss that simplicity of collecting. I say that because back then, raw cards were it! nowadays too many people in the hobby are in it to flip and go! meaning tons of fake cards, altered cards, trimmed cards, etc, etc. so graded cards do safe guard these issues somewhat (I know not 100% but thats a whole different topic and a whole different thread!) I love raw cards but dont want to be stiffed with altered fake cards! I almost wish the hobby would go back to raw cards being cool (instead of graded cards being the go too) I know, I know collect what I like, but again. dont want to get stuck with fake cards! make raw cards great again!

[Exhibitman]

Al, I deal in raw cards and they sell just fine. The percentage of collectors who care about slabs is a fraction of the total base. That said, I would not sell a grade-worthy card raw: no reason to leave money on the table.

[homerunhitter]

I also noticed on eBay that sometimes I can buy a graded card for cheaper than what it costs to submit it for grading on my own! So in those instances, for resale value or ease of resale in the future, I now almost always buy the graded card.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

I also noticed on eBay that sometimes I can buy a graded card for cheaper than what it costs to submit it for grading on my own! So in those instances, for resale value or ease of resale in the future, I now almost always buy the graded card.

That is a conundrum. I have a box of graded cards that fit that description. It is also why I shy away from submitting mainstream cards--no point in paying $15+ and shipping both ways to get something I can find for ten bucks and one-way delivery.

[homerunhitter]

It’s all so confusing, but the needle is swinging back to raw cards!

[Big35Hurt]

I have never sent cards in for grading. I did it previously for a small handful of nicer coins - mainly to get confirmation on authenticity and variety for some silver dollars. I am ok with my cards being in top loaders or one touch holders. I do have some graded cards, and they were bought that way with none of them being high end. I have two 1958 Omaha Cardinals Bob Gibson team issued cards that I will probably get graded at some point (maybe when I decide that I am going to sell them).

[homerunhitter]

I just recently switched back to raw and I must tell you, raw is awesome! I have rekindled my joy in raw cards. The only thing I think I will miss about graded cards is that if I ever decided ti leave the hobby and sell everything, with graded I could just put in a box and send them off to be sold by a consignment service vs with raw cards, being ripped off by some LCS offering to pay me crap for my cards. I feel that when it comes to resale, LCSs will pull your pants down to your ankles and go to town!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

I just recently switched back to raw and I must tell you, raw is awesome! I have rekindled my joy in raw cards. The only thing I think I will miss about graded cards is that if I ever decided ti leave the hobby and sell everything, with graded I could just put in a box and send them off to be sold by a consignment service vs with raw cards, being ripped off by some LCS offering to pay me crap for my cards. I feel that when it comes to resale, LCSs will pull your pants down to your ankles and go to town!

I have never understood this. Do people actually think businesses sell items for even remotely close to what they pay for them.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

I just recently switched back to raw and I must tell you, raw is awesome! I have rekindled my joy in raw cards. The only thing I think I will miss about graded cards is that if I ever decided ti leave the hobby and sell everything, with graded I could just put in a box and send them off to be sold by a consignment service vs with raw cards, being ripped off by some LCS offering to pay me crap for my cards. I feel that when it comes to resale, LCSs will pull your pants down to your ankles and go to town!

You can sell raw cards for their value too. 1) you can list and sell yourself, 2) you can send them to someone like Greg Morris and have them sold for you, 3) you can get them graded in trendy-slab-of-the-moment by the auction house upon consignment if that is more profitable. Just some of the options. Just as you buy raw cards at ~market value so too can they be sold as such, which is how you are able to buy them. You need not get engage as a receiver in disgusting acts to sell raw...

[homerunhitter]

Ben,
This is based on my own experiences selling cards to the local LCS. I get it that they need to buy low to make a profit but most thst (of course not all) that I’ve dealt with are slimy shady people. Example, “of this box of 1954 topps, I’ll give you $50 for!” or “this 1956 topps Willie Mays is not in great condition, I’ll give you $20 for it” most take advantage of people so they can make a buck.

Greg,

I definitely wouldnt have the patience or time to list card by card for thousands of cards or deal with problem buyers, so eBay wouldn’t work for me particularly. With graded, no patience to wait a year to get my cards back! Plus most of my raw are 1950’s lower grade commons.

Greg morris might be a got fit when the time comes but i thought he only dies high end vintage? (Not sure my low end vintage fits his business model) and also don’t you have to inventory every card you send in to him. (Great if you only had a few cards but what if you are sending in thousands!)

Thanks guys! I appreciate you both.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

This is based on my own experiences selling cards to the local LCS.

I definitely wouldnt have the patience or time to list card by card for thousands of cards or deal with problem buyers, so eBay wouldn’t work for me particularly. With graded, no patience to wait a year to get my cards back!

If you're not willing to take the trouble and put in the work and pay the overhead (e.g. brick and mortar store, convention booth fees, advertising), you're not going to get top dollar. Only those who put in the effort and endure the costs get top dollar. So don't expect nearly top dollar unless you're willing to do likewise.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

Ben,
This is based on my own experiences selling cards to the local LCS. I get it that they need to buy low to make a profit but most thst (of course not all) that I’ve dealt with are slimy shady people. Example, “of this box of 1954 topps, I’ll give you $50 for!” or “this 1956 topps Willie Mays is not in great condition, I’ll give you $20 for it” most take advantage of people so they can make a buck.

Greg,

I definitely wouldnt have the patience or time to list card by card for thousands of cards or deal with problem buyers, so eBay wouldn’t work for me particularly. With graded, no patience to wait a year to get my cards back! Plus most of my raw are 1950’s lower grade commons.

Greg morris might be a got fit when the time comes but i thought he only dies high end vintage? (Not sure my low end vintage fits his business model) and also don’t you have to inventory every card you send in to him. (Great if you only had a few cards but what if you are sending in thousands!)

Thanks guys! I appreciate you both.

I mean, any way you sell them you will realistically need to inventory what they are, whether graded or raw, auction house or eBay. If you have a bunch of low grade commons, you can sell them in lots the same as they are usually bought. If you send graded to an auction house an inventory list will still be needed. Low grade 50's common cards are worth less than the cost of a slab, so graded would make no sense for thousands of low grade 50's commons. Selling those cards graded would be a massive loss of money, where raw you can get about what you put into them right back. Any sale requires a little bit of work, whether that's driving to an outdated LCS you feel rips you off, selling lots on eBay, consigning graded to an auction house or any other method.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by G1911

I mean, any way you sell them you will realistically need to inventory what they are, whether graded or raw, auction house or eBay. If you have a bunch of low grade commons, you can sell them in lots the same as they are usually bought. If you send graded to an auction house an inventory list will still be needed. Low grade 50's common cards are worth less than the cost of a slab, so graded would make no sense for thousands of low grade 50's commons. Selling those cards graded would be a massive loss of money, where raw you can get about what you put into them right back. Any sale requires a little bit of work, whether that's driving to an outdated LCS you feel rips you off, selling lots on eBay, consigning graded to an auction house or any other method.

I'm going to agree with Greg on this one.

Sadly, based on what you've described of your collection (raw, low-grade, postwar) if you want to sell fast with minimal effort, then you're likely to need to take a big haircut, because someone else is going to have to put forth all the effort to market the stuff and find multiple buyers.

On the other hand, if you want to maximize your value, then your best bet is likely to require retailing them yourself, or maybe working with a consignment shop that will take a decent cut, and could take a while, unless they're running auctions with end dates, in which case you're taking a bit of a gamble with what the market will bring that week for your precise pieces, and who's paying attention and looking to buy the stuff that you're selling.

Any way you slice it, there are going to be tradeoffs, and only you can decide which of those tradeoffs makes the most sense for you personally based on your situation and hopes and dreams.

[raulus]

Nothing quite like a double post.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

It’s all so confusing, but the needle is swinging back to raw cards!

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your exclamation point, but I guess I'm always confused when raw card acolytes get excited about others getting into raw cards.

I mean, if you were looking to sell today and you had a large collection of raw cards, then I would definitely understand your excitement.

But if you're still very much in buying mode, then having other people jump on the raw card bandwagon seems like it will drive up prices overall and add to the population of buyers you get to compete against when you're buying, all of which should make it harder for you to find raw cards at reasonable prices, and none of which seems like it would excite me if raw cards were my jam.

But maybe we all crave the validation that comes from having other people doing the same things that we're doing because it makes us feel better about our own choices?

[ALR-bishop]

I don't know if excited is the right word but I have always prefered ungraded cards over graded for personal collecting. But admittedly value has not been a driving factor for me in collecting.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by raulus

...if you want to sell fast with minimal effort, then you're likely to need to take a big haircut, because someone else is going to have to put forth all the effort to market the stuff and find multiple buyers.

Precisely! If you want a quick sale, you'll have to take a big haircut. That's the way it works.

[homerunhitter]

What im trying to do/say with my collection is, what will be the easier, less painful way to liquidate my collection in the future when I am an old fart and too old to deal with eBay and too old to handwrite (or type) a inventory list of thousands of cards or too old to walk into a LCS to sell (can you imagine how a LCS will take advantage of a 80 or 90 year old trying to sell his or her collection) so for me graded is the easiest because I can just put it in a box (no inventory sheet needed) and send it to a consignment company like probstein) or if it’s graded as an old fart a LCS can’t say “this card is in horrible condition” when I can day , im it’s graded a 3, 4 or 5. So graded is easier but I love raw cards! So trying to figure out the best route to go with raw cards.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

So trying to figure out the best route to go with raw cards.

Keep 'em raw. That way their presence will comfort you on your death bed. That worked for Angelo Savelli.

[homerunhitter]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Keep 'em raw. That way their presence will comfort you on your death bed. That worked for Angelo Savelli.

Not helpful!