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  #101  
Old 03-05-2021, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan View Post
I think I've already explained. Read thread from beginning (or just post #98)
Neither explains a "I'll take it at 55k on Net54" offer.

So if someone on Net54 had replied and agreed to the 55k offer - what would have happened....?
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Last edited by jp1216; 03-05-2021 at 03:33 PM. Reason: typo
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  #102  
Old 03-05-2021, 03:59 PM
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Hey Hey quick update! Just came in from Steve Sloan. Will update the thread with progress
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  #103  
Old 03-05-2021, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jp1216 View Post
Neither explains a "I'll take it at 55k on Net54" offer.

So if someone on Net54 had replied and agreed to the 55k offer - what would have happened....?
No dog in the fight, but as he already turned down offers of 40K and 45K, I'm feeling comfortable saying he'd turn down 55K. Just my opinion.
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  #104  
Old 03-05-2021, 04:39 PM
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Things moving now. Just got off phone with Jackie Curiel at PSA after getting an email from her. She has issued a pre-paid Fedex label to send the card in for a management review.

We talked about the process and what happens if they deem the card altered and my options after. She said they would figure out a fair market price based on the data tool on the PSA website.

I asked for management to come up with a market price in writing so we're on the same page before I send in the card. This is where my ebay offers and third party offers come into play. She's going to get that figure and circle back with me on Monday. No way I'm sending this card in before fair value is established. stay tuned...

edited to add: Has anyone gone through this process? What should I be thinking about?
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Last edited by ajjohnsonsoxfan; 03-05-2021 at 04:43 PM.
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  #105  
Old 03-05-2021, 05:15 PM
x2drich2000 x2drich2000 is offline
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No dog in the fight, but whenever I see language like this in a guarantee I think you are 100% correct to get the amount in writing ahead of time. "The current market value is determined by PSA, based in part on Sports Market Report and SMR Online values and/or recent prices realized from the marketplace. PSA will be the sole determiner of the current market value." [emphasis added https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee] If you don't agree with their determination of value, not sure what your options would be though.
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  #106  
Old 03-05-2021, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan View Post
Things moving now. Just got off phone with Jackie Curiel at PSA after getting an email from her. She has issued a pre-paid Fedex label to send the card in for a management review.

We talked about the process and what happens if they deem the card altered and my options after. She said they would figure out a fair market price based on the data tool on the PSA website.

I asked for management to come up with a market price in writing so we're on the same page before I send in the card. This is where my ebay offers and third party offers come into play. She's going to get that figure and circle back with me on Monday. No way I'm sending this card in before fair value is established. stay tuned...

edited to add: Has anyone gone through this process? What should I be thinking about?
I think getting a number in writing before shipping it off makes sense. As we saw in the reprint CJ in a PSA slab earlier this year, once you ship it off you no longer have much or any control of the situation and it's best to do the negotiations beforehand (and in writing).
And not that this would necessarily impact your decision process, but I do wonder what they would do with the card if returned to them and a refund is issued...
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  #107  
Old 03-05-2021, 05:39 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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Side Note is there paper lose on top left of his hat?? Yellow Chunk?

That bugs the crap out of me, aside from being trimmed what is that? Curious what that is?

Last edited by Johnny630; 03-05-2021 at 05:41 PM.
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  #108  
Old 03-05-2021, 07:35 PM
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back and forth with Jackie at PSA over email. They are refusing to negotiate a market price before I send in the card. Reached out again directly to Steve to see if I can resolve. more to come...
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  #109  
Old 03-05-2021, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan View Post
back and forth with Jackie at PSA over email. They are refusing to negotiate a market price before I send in the card. Reached out again directly to Steve to see if I can resolve. more to come...
Why do I get the feeling this isn't going to go smoothly?
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  #110  
Old 03-05-2021, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Why do I get the feeling this isn't going to go smoothly?
Sounds like they are wanting to pay market price from last summer.
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  #111  
Old 03-05-2021, 08:42 PM
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Why not just drop it off, it's 45 minutes away.
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  #112  
Old 03-05-2021, 09:42 PM
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Why do I get the feeling this isn't going to go smoothly?
right!
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  #113  
Old 03-05-2021, 11:56 PM
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Why not just drop it off, it's 45 minutes away.
If they'd let me do that, I would be all for it. I'd still want to know what value they'd be placing on the card before they evaluate it. Once it's in their hands, I've lost all negotiating power.
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  #114  
Old 03-06-2021, 03:12 AM
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Wouldn’t you be happy be getting back what you paid or slightly more than you paid for the card originally to end all this drama?

Also, Jackie at Psa is fantastic.
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  #115  
Old 03-06-2021, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfish View Post
Wouldn’t you be happy be getting back what you paid or slightly more than you paid for the card originally to end all this drama?

Also, Jackie at Psa is fantastic.
You would be happy with that outcome? I know I wouldn't. He would never be able to replace that card in that grade in today's market with what he paid for it in July. I doubt he would even be able to get a PSA 3 for what he paid in July.
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  #116  
Old 03-06-2021, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan View Post
If they'd let me do that, I would be all for it. I'd still want to know what value they'd be placing on the card before they evaluate it. Once it's in their hands, I've lost all negotiating power.
Very true, and because of that, I don't blame you one bit for not wanting to do it.
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  #117  
Old 03-06-2021, 06:26 AM
ngrow9 ngrow9 is offline
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Originally Posted by earlywynnfan View Post
No dog in the fight, but as he already turned down offers of 40K and 45K, I'm feeling comfortable saying he'd turn down 55K. Just my opinion.
The difference is that by offering the card at $55K, he's created a legally binding offer which, if accepted, would create a legally binding contract. It would have been a better look to just post it asking for offers in this case, IMHO.

Last edited by ngrow9; 03-06-2021 at 06:28 AM.
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  #118  
Old 03-06-2021, 06:49 AM
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The difference is that by offering the card at $55K, he's created a legally binding offer which, if accepted, would create a legally binding contract. It would have been a better look to just post it asking for offers in this case, IMHO.
But if he is transparent about it then no one is going to pay 4.5 market for a trimmed card. And if he isn't then that isn't a good look either. (as we have seen). I would never give any TPG the card without a negotiated price up front. Once they have it, as stated, there is no control. Hold your hand tightly imo....

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  #119  
Old 03-06-2021, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfish View Post
Wouldn’t you be happy be getting back what you paid or slightly more than you paid for the card originally to end all this drama?

Also, Jackie at Psa is fantastic.
Rhetorical question I assume, obviously AJ would not be happy with that at all.
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  #120  
Old 03-06-2021, 07:27 AM
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Let’s face it guys would he have bought this card if it wasn’t in a PSA holder? I would guess no he bought it because it was in a PSA holder we all know the market resale value of a PSA holder slabbed card. To me PSA hast to back this up and pay you a fair market value, I believe they will. Keep the faith and let’s see if PSA makes this right I think that they will.


One thing is troubling...If this card was trying to be sold and the seller knew that it had issues I don’t really care for that again though I have no idea what anyone knew what anyone didn’t know but if the card is deemed altered PSA has to make you right.

The argument I would pound home If you have to battle this out would be I bought the card because it was in a PSA holder the market knows it’s strong resale value growth and appreciation when you buy a card graded in there slab you buy it with that assurance that the card is authentic unaltered and proper.

I believe the real battle is going to be what is a fair market value for this card? May go to an arbiter I don’t know ��*♂️

It always comes down to the money, on both ends is the juice worth the squeeze ?

Last edited by Johnny630; 03-06-2021 at 07:37 AM.
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  #121  
Old 03-06-2021, 09:02 AM
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Sounds like they are wanting to pay market price from last summer.
If the card could have been returned last summer, maybe that has some logic to it? Or can you just sit on an altered card, hope it goes up, then expect PSA to pay for the appreciation?
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  #122  
Old 03-06-2021, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
If the card could have been returned last summer, maybe that has some logic to it? Or can you just sit on an altered card, hope it goes up, then expect PSA to pay for the appreciation?
Had the card gone down in value it would've been to the advantage of PSA.

If he'd been compensated last summer he could've then gotten an unaltered Jackie and realized the same profit.
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  #123  
Old 03-06-2021, 09:42 AM
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Had the card gone down in value it would've been to the advantage of PSA.

If he'd been compensated last summer he could've then gotten an unaltered Jackie and realized the same profit.
But PSA wouldn't have funded it. A buyer would have.
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  #124  
Old 03-06-2021, 12:19 PM
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Reading this thread just makes me feel so happy that I picked up my PSA 4 Leaf Jackie RIGHT BEFORE the pandemic. I remember the seller wanted like five to a thousand dollars more, and instead of arguing with him, I just gave him the money. I remember him telling me "listen, this card is going to be worth ten grand one day - you hear me?" I thought to myself "yeah ... and that will probably be in ten years!" Instead, it happened in like ten weeks! LOL!

Anyhow, anyone who chops up a Leaf Jackie should have his d*ck chopped off instead!
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  #125  
Old 03-06-2021, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
Reading this thread just makes me feel so happy that I picked up my PSA 4 Leaf Jackie RIGHT BEFORE the pandemic. I remember the seller wanted like five to a thousand dollars more, and instead of arguing with him, I just gave him the money. I remember him telling me "listen, this card is going to be worth ten grand one day - you hear me?" I thought to myself "yeah ... and that will probably be in ten years!" Instead, it happened in like ten weeks! LOL!

Anyhow, anyone who chops up a Leaf Jackie should have his d*ck chopped off instead!
With all the money they have made they could buy a gold one to replace it.
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  #126  
Old 03-06-2021, 01:42 PM
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with all the money they have made they could buy a gold one to replace it.
lmao!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #127  
Old 03-06-2021, 02:14 PM
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With all the money they have made they could buy a gold one to replace it.
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  #128  
Old 03-06-2021, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
.............

Anyhow, anyone who chops up a Leaf Jackie should have his d*ck chopped off instead!
I know everyone always assumes that the chop happens for the purpose of deceiving a grader and getting a higher number flip, but that's NOT always the case. In fact, I think it's why some of the trimmed cards make it into a holder.
They juuuust make it inside size tolerances and the edges aren't 'fresh'.
Someone long ago, a kid, a collector looking for it to fit inside a display, made a decision to slice and dice but age has since hidden some of that obvious alteration.

It's kind of like the new video replay rules we see in sports.
If you can't be sure it's been trimmed, then it's unfair to guess that it was in all likelihood but not without doubt.

Of course this doesn't apply necessarily to the Jackie or some other obvious trimmed cards like below, but sometimes what's posted and postulated to be trimmed may pass the standard inspections TPG's use to make their call.


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  #129  
Old 03-06-2021, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 68Hawk View Post
I know everyone always assumes that the chop happens for the purpose of deceiving a grader and getting a higher number flip, but that's NOT always the case. In fact, I think it's why some of the trimmed cards make it into a holder.
They juuuust make it inside size tolerances and the edges aren't 'fresh'.
Someone long ago, a kid, a collector looking for it to fit inside a display, made a decision to slice and dice but age has since hidden some of that obvious alteration.
Hawk,

I think that ninety-nine percent of trimmed cards were done for the purpose of deceiving a grader and to get a higher grade. I also think that majority of these Leafs were chopped up by the same person. He also chopped up majority of the 51' and 53' Parkhurst hockey cards as well. He has been doing this for a long time.

Nice Satch.
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  #130  
Old 03-06-2021, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
Hawk,

I think that ninety-nine percent of trimmed cards were done for the purpose of deceiving a grader and to get a higher grade. I also think that majority of these Leafs were chopped up by the same person. He also chopped up majority of the 51' and 53' Parkhurst hockey cards as well. He has been doing this for a long time.

Nice Satch.
Don't forget 55 Bowman, 39 Play Ball, and 52 Bowman and Look N See.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 03-06-2021 at 04:40 PM.
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  #131  
Old 03-06-2021, 04:54 PM
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Hawk,

I think that ninety-nine percent of trimmed cards were done for the purpose of deceiving a grader and to get a higher grade. I also think that majority of these Leafs were chopped up by the same person. He also chopped up majority of the 51' and 53' Parkhurst hockey cards as well. He has been doing this for a long time.

Nice Satch.
That's super sad to hear re consistent fraudster choppers.
Ok, I'll get back on the pecker re-sizing bandwagon.
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  #132  
Old 03-06-2021, 05:14 PM
ajjohnsonsoxfan ajjohnsonsoxfan is offline
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Don't forget T206. Every time I see a skinny sharp cornered T206 I wonder. All in how many altered cards in holders? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of Thousands?
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  #133  
Old 03-06-2021, 07:56 PM
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Don't forget 55 Bowman, 39 Play Ball, and 52 Bowman and Look N See.
And this guy is still sitting at home chilling, eh?
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  #134  
Old 03-06-2021, 08:37 PM
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And this guy is still sitting at home chilling, eh?
He has made millions in this hobby. I am sure he is chilling just fine.
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  #135  
Old 03-06-2021, 08:38 PM
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Don't forget T206. Every time I see a skinny sharp cornered T206 I wonder. All in how many altered cards in holders? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of Thousands?
Not a specialty of the clinician under discussion, to my knowledge. But he has many colleagues. You've even heard of some of them.
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  #136  
Old 03-06-2021, 09:22 PM
vtgmsc vtgmsc is offline
Mike P.ap
 
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Default Thank god some un-altered exist....

Except for tape! lol

Yes Virginia, there is a non trimming Santa Clause out there! Especially like how the tape bleeds into and right up to the right edge.

Peace, Mike

IMG_9108.jpg

PS If this was missing the tape, I could retire.......but I kinda like it!

Last edited by vtgmsc; 03-06-2021 at 09:28 PM.
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  #137  
Old 03-06-2021, 09:47 PM
68Hawk 68Hawk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtgmsc View Post
Except for tape! lol

Yes Virginia, there is a non trimming Santa Clause out there! Especially like how the tape bleeds into and right up to the right edge.

Peace, Mike

Attachment 444663

PS If this was missing the tape, I could retire.......but I kinda like it!
Mine doesn't have the tape, wanna swap?
Seriously, that is one buldgingly full bordered Leaf card!!!
Colors are also super nice and such good registration.
I can't see ever wanting to let it go either.

Last edited by 68Hawk; 03-06-2021 at 09:47 PM.
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  #138  
Old 03-06-2021, 09:52 PM
bounce bounce is offline
DR
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well I hope this works out, but I think there is zero chance of payout on this card.

management review is going to conclude the grade is accurate with no alteration, and that will close the book on it.

if they pay out on this one, they are opening the door to every single other card the BO team has discovered, which would bankrupt the company.

Nat and the investment team aren't stupid, they knew this liability was out there and I'm sure there were dozens of lawyers that convinced everyone there was plenty of leeway to never pay on the promise.

I really do hope I'm wrong, because AJ has some great cards and has always been a good guy in dealing with me. but alas, this "guarantee" has proven to not be worth much historically.

don't get cheated...
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  #139  
Old 03-06-2021, 10:01 PM
vtgmsc vtgmsc is offline
Mike P.ap
 
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Default Thanks Dan!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 68Hawk View Post
Mine doesn't have the tape, wanna swap?
Seriously, that is one buldgingly full bordered Leaf card!!!
Colors are also super nice and such good registration.
I can't see ever wanting to let it go either.
I'll sleep on the offer! lol

Your is super cool too! Not many of this card even exist.

I do love the centering, registration, borders, colors, rarity, and yes, I do love that tape! I feel strongly that if this card was not originally taped to something that the conditon would be far from what it is now! Thanks! Mike
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  #140  
Old 03-06-2021, 10:58 PM
Bram99 Bram99 is offline
Tony S.ti.ns.a
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Default Discipline

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Originally Posted by clydepepper View Post
Ted - I am in awe of you holding on to cards for this long. Now, that's discipline!

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  #141  
Old 03-06-2021, 10:59 PM
chadeast chadeast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
But if he is transparent about it then no one is going to pay 4.5 market for a trimmed card. And if he isn't then that isn't a good look either. (as we have seen). I would never give any TPG the card without a negotiated price up front. Once they have it, as stated, there is no control. Hold your hand tightly imo....

.
I just want to echo Leon's sentiment. If PSA has the card with no deal in place, you'll very likely not be happy with the results. If it was me, even if a price was agreed upon, I would insist upon a legally binding contract to ensure that the terms of the deal were met by all parties.
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  #142  
Old 03-07-2021, 06:47 AM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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Cutting you a check plus returning the card to you in an Authentic Altered Slab seems like the easy thing to do.

I think they will.

Are you ready to battle it out with attorney ? Or just Take what they offer you?
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  #143  
Old 03-07-2021, 08:01 AM
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Exhibitman Exhibitman is offline
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California Business & Professions Code section 17500: "It is unlawful for any person, firm, corporation or association, or any employee thereof with intent directly or indirectly to ... perform services ... or to induce the public to enter into any obligation relating thereto, to make or disseminate ...over the Internet, any statement, ... those services ... which is untrue or misleading, and which is known, or which by the exercise of reasonable care should be known, to be untrue or misleading... Any violation of the provisions of this section is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six months, or by a fine not exceeding two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500), or by both that imprisonment and fine."

Seems to me that a guarantee that the company never fulfills because it says "nu-uh" to every request to fulfill it is ripe for legal action.
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  #144  
Old 03-07-2021, 08:07 AM
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Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
California Business & Professions Code section 17500: "It is unlawful for any person, firm, corporation or association, or any employee thereof with intent directly or indirectly to ... perform services ... or to induce the public to enter into any obligation relating thereto, to make or disseminate ...over the Internet, any statement, ... those services ... which is untrue or misleading, and which is known, or which by the exercise of reasonable care should be known, to be untrue or misleading... Any violation of the provisions of this section is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six months, or by a fine not exceeding two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500), or by both that imprisonment and fine."

Seems to me that a guarantee that the company never fulfills because it says "nu-uh" to every request to fulfill it is ripe for legal action.
They do fulfill it sometimes though, and didn't their financials when they were public show how much they paid out each year, or did it just show the reserve?
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  #145  
Old 03-07-2021, 12:49 PM
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Lorewalker Lorewalker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
But if he is transparent about it then no one is going to pay 4.5 market for a trimmed card. And if he isn't then that isn't a good look either. (as we have seen). I would never give any TPG the card without a negotiated price up front. Once they have it, as stated, there is no control. Hold your hand tightly imo....

.
Sad as it is, PSA is completely in the driver's seat here. We all seem to have to play by their rules. Maintaining possession of the card only puts you in possession of the card but not control of the disposition.

PSA could determine without having the card that it might be altered and if AJ refuses to send it in because he cannot get them to commit to it being trimmed or a buy back price, PSA will deactivate the cert pending a review of the card.

AJ has already said he would not sell the card to anyone given the card's history but having a card with a deactivated cert would certainly add another layer of complexity to the situation.
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  #146  
Old 03-07-2021, 03:33 PM
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Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
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It's not objectively unreasonable for PSA to want the card back in its possession before making a determination. You're going to lose that one. IMO you're already in not so great a position on account of waiting months after the card was outed and you knew it before taking action. What leverage do you think holding onto the card gives you anyhow if you aren't going to sell it under any circumstances because it's hacked, I am not seeing it.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at www.jamesspaethartworks.com. He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 03-07-2021 at 03:39 PM.
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  #147  
Old 03-07-2021, 03:36 PM
ajjohnsonsoxfan ajjohnsonsoxfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorewalker View Post
Sad as it is, PSA is completely in the driver's seat here. We all seem to have to play by their rules. Maintaining possession of the card only puts you in possession of the card but not control of the disposition.

PSA could determine without having the card that it might be altered and if AJ refuses to send it in because he cannot get them to commit to it being trimmed or a buy back price, PSA will deactivate the cert pending a review of the card.

AJ has already said he would not sell the card to anyone given the card's history but having a card with a deactivated cert would certainly add another layer of complexity to the situation.
I could be wrong, but I don't thing PSA will deactivate the cert without first reviewing the card in hand. I've emailed them all the info from the blowout thread including the pics and evidence and they've said they need the card in hand to do a review and that pics and scans aren't enough proof.

I'm holding out hope that my email to Steve will allow us a dialogue to put a fair market price on the card that gives me confidence to send it in. I really don't want to get lawyers involved at this point and think we can work it out before it gets to that point.

If I don't hear from Steve, I'll reach out to Nat and see if that gets me further. I'm assuming Nat (and Steve for that matter) will want to resolve fairly and amicably. All I know is the longer they wait, the potentially more expensive it gets. A PSA 7 just sold last night for $400,000+
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Last edited by ajjohnsonsoxfan; 03-07-2021 at 04:05 PM.
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  #148  
Old 03-07-2021, 05:00 PM
jad22 jad22 is offline
Joe D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan View Post
I could be wrong, but I don't thing PSA will deactivate the cert without first reviewing the card in hand. I've emailed them all the info from the blowout thread including the pics and evidence and they've said they need the card in hand to do a review and that pics and scans aren't enough proof.

I'm holding out hope that my email to Steve will allow us a dialogue to put a fair market price on the card that gives me confidence to send it in. I really don't want to get lawyers involved at this point and think we can work it out before it gets to that point.

If I don't hear from Steve, I'll reach out to Nat and see if that gets me further. I'm assuming Nat (and Steve for that matter) will want to resolve fairly and amicably. All I know is the longer they wait, the potentially more expensive it gets. A PSA 7 just sold last night for $400,000+
A psa 7 With paper loss right? So scans and pics aren’t evidence?
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  #149  
Old 03-07-2021, 06:51 PM
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swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
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PSA has and will deactivate cert numbers for cards they don't have in hand. They will modify set info on cards they've logged incorrectly in their database without the card in hand (the flip stays wrong in those instances until an owner sends it in). PSA is also quick on the trigger to ban people who make demands of them, so if you're a submitter or have an account to track your collection, don't be surprised if either get deleted once this one is "cleared."

The fact that you're making your case in the open makes it very likely they eliminate you from their customer pool, IMO.
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  #150  
Old 03-07-2021, 06:54 PM
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swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jad22 View Post
A psa 7 With paper loss right? So scans and pics aren’t evidence?
Have you been following along all these three years? They and BGS have stood behind numerous cards outed for trimming. BGS doesn't even have a monetary liability/guarantee, just don't want to get egg on their face publicized for agreeing their graded cards are trimmed. Read more threads, especially on Blowout.
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
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JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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