1921-22 . E220 National Caramel

[Leon]

There aren't enough card threads currently so here is an E220 one. Picked this up not long ago from a board member.

[chadeast]

I've always been oddly drawn to miscuts, probably why I love E220's. I still can't believe that I own this card, I just love the image!

[ezez420]

No miscut on this one


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[BuzzD]

I have Shawkey.I guess it is trimmed but not sure (and not sure why!)

[brianp-beme]

Below is some info on the three E220 back variations that I have sporadically gathered over the years, along with the help of other Net54 members, and scans to help identify those three backs.


Left cards of scans - Type 1 backs ('B' of "Ball" in 2nd line under 'P' of "Pictures', and printing top right down):

All 120 cards have been verified for Type 1.


Center cards of scans - Type 2 backs ('B' of "Ball" in 2nd line under 'I' of "Pictures', and printing top right down - 46 currently verified):

G.C. Alexander
Turner Barber
George Burns (Cincinnati)
Joe Bush
Wilbur Cooper
Wm. Cunningham
George Cutshaw
Jimmy Dykes (batting)
"Red" Faber
Chick Fewster
Wilson Fewster
Walter Gerber
Hank Gowdy
Charles Grimm
Sam Harris
Harry Heilman
Chas. Hollocher
Wilbert Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Jimmy Johnston
Dick Kerr
Pete Kilduff (bending)
Pete Kilduff (leaping)
Larry Kopf
Walter "Buster" Mails
Walter "Rabbit" Maranville
Bob Meusel
Ivan Olson
Steve O'Neill
Geo. Paskert
Roger Peckinpaugh
V.J. Picinich
Wally Pipp
Jimmy Ring
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Maurice Shannon
Bob Shawkey
Urban Shocker
John Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Frank Snyder (standing)
James Vaughan
Robert Veach
George Whitted (batting)
Arthur Wilson


Right cards of scans - Type 3 backs ('B' of "Ball" in 2nd line under 'I' of "Pictures', and printing bottom left up...these are basically reversed Type 2 backs - 93 currently verified):

Babe Adams
James Austin
Franklin "Home Run" Baker
Dave Bancroft
Turner Barber
George Burns (Cincinnati)
George Burns (Cleveland)
Joe Bush
Leon Cadore
Max Carey
Eddie Collins
John Collins
S. Covaleskie
Walton Cruise
Wm. Cunningham
George Cutshaw
Jake Daubert
Chas. A Deal
Bill Doak
Joe Dugan
Jimmy Dykes (fielding)
Chick Fewster
Ira Flagstead
Arthur Fletcher
Frank Frisch
Larry Gardner
Walter Gerber
Charles Glazner
J.C. Graney
Tommy Griffith
Heinie Groh
Byron Harris
Sam Harris
Harry Heilman
Claude Hendrix
Walter Henline
Chas. Hollocher
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby
Waite Hoyt
Wilbert Hubbell
William Jacobsen
Walter Johnson
Joe Judge
Geo. "Bingo" Kelly
Larry Kopf
Harry Leibold
H.B. Leonard
Walter "Buster" Mails
Carl Mays
Lee Meadows
Emil Meusel
J.C. Milan
Earl Neale
Robert Nehf
Bernie Neis
Joe Oeschger
Robert O'Farrell
Ivan Olson
George Paskert
Ralph "Cy" Perkins
Scott Perry
Jeff Pfeffer
Wally Pipp
Derrill Pratt
Goldie Rapp
Edgar Rice
Eddie Rousch
Babe Ruth
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Joe Sewell
Maurice Shannon
Urban Shocker
George Sisler
Earl Smith
John Smith
Sherrod Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Frank Snyder (standing)
Vernon Spencer
Chas. "Casey" Stengle
Milton Stock (batting)
Milton Stock (fielding)
Wm. Wambsgauss
Aaron Ward
Zach Wheat
George Whitted (fielding)
Fred C. Williams
Arthur Wilson
Lawton Witt
"Pep" Young
Ross Young


Subjects that have been seen with all three back types, which are any that are noted in both lists above...but to make it easier (25 total):

Turner Barber
George Burns (Cincinnati)
Joe Bush
Wm. Cunningham
George Cutshaw
Chick Fewster
Walter Gerber
Sam Harris
Harry Heilman
Chas. Hollocher
Wilbert Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Larry Kopf
Walter "Buster" Mails
Ivan Olson
George Paskert
Wally Pipp
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Maurice Shannon
Urban Shocker
John Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Frank Snyder (standing)
Arthur Wilson

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Here are some fun size variations and odd cuts that the E220 cards are known for.

Brian

[mrreality68]

some nice looking cards.
looks like I have to start looking for that e220 Ruth

[GasHouseGang]

I was always getting the E220's mixed up with the E121's. I found an old thread on Net54 where several people had even gotten cards graded by PSA that had mistaken one for the other. Here's the thread:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=148662

The quickest and easiest way to tell by looking at the front of the card is that the E220's have the player name inside the frame of the picture and the E121's have the name outside of the frame.

[Jobu]

Great info Brian!!

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I was always getting the E220's mixed up with the E121's. I found an old thread on Net54 where several people had even gotten cards graded by PSA that had mistaken one for the other. Here's the thread:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=148662

The quickest and easiest way to tell by looking at the front of the card is that the E220's have the player name inside the frame of the picture and the E121's have the name outside of the frame.

David, what you said is true with respect to differentiating E220s from E121s. However, the E122 Am. Caramel cards also have the player's name "inside the frame of the picture," just like the E220s.

[Wanaselja]

My first E220. Just got it this month from a fellow member.




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[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

David, what you said is true with respect to differentiating E220s from E121s. However, the E122 Am. Caramel cards also have the player's name "inside the frame of the picture," just like the E220s.

Well darn, I guess I'll have to flip them over and see if it says "American" or "National" Caramel.

[chadeast]

Thanks again, Leon.

[brianp-beme]

Besides the 'National Caramel' on E220 backs versus 'American Caramel seen on E122 backs, the E122 American card fronts have a coarse, cross hatch image (that I personally dislike in comparison to the clear photos seen in the E220 National Caramel set).

Here are a couple of E122 American cards as examples to compare with the previously shown E220 National Caramels (cards not mine).

Brian

[GeoPoto]

J. Clyde "Deerfoot" Milan. Outfielder for the Washington Senators in 1907-1922. 2,100 hits and 495 stolen bases in 16 MLB seasons. 1912 and 1913 AL stolen base leader, including a then record 88 in 1912. His career OBP was .353. Managed the Washington Senators in 1922. His best season may have been 1911 for the Washington Senators as he posted a .395 OBP with 58 stolen bases and 109 runs scored in 705 plate appearances.

From Milan's SABR biography: He was a left-handed hitter who batted .285 over the course of 16 seasons, and Clark Griffith called him Washington’s greatest centerfielder, claiming that he played the position more shallow than any man in baseball.

Yet Clyde “Deerfoot” Milan achieved his greatest fame as a base stealer. After Milan supplanted Ty Cobb as the American League’s stolen-base leader by pilfering 88 bases in 1912 and 75 in 1913, F. C. Lane of Baseball Magazine called him “Milan the Marvel, the Flying Mercury of the diamond, the man who shattered the American League record, and the greatest base runner of the decade.”

It was hyperbole, of course; Cobb re-claimed the AL record in 1915 by stealing 96 bases and went on to swipe far more bases over the decade than Milan, but Deerfoot stole a total of 481 during the Deadball Era, ranking third in the AL behind only Cobb (765) and Eddie Collins (564).

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1632819879

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

J. Clyde "Deerfoot" Milan. Outfielder for the Washington Senators in 1907-1922. 2,100 hits and 495 stolen bases in 16 MLB seasons. 1912 and 1913 AL stolen base leader, including a then record 88 in 1912. His career OBP was .353. Managed the Washington Senators in 1922. His best season may have been 1911 for the Washington Senators as he posted a .395 OBP with 58 stolen bases and 109 runs scored in 705 plate appearances.

From Milan's SABR biography: He was a left-handed hitter who batted .285 over the course of 16 seasons, and Clark Griffith called him Washington’s greatest centerfielder, claiming that he played the position more shallow than any man in baseball.

Yet Clyde “Deerfoot” Milan achieved his greatest fame as a base stealer. After Milan supplanted Ty Cobb as the American League’s stolen-base leader by pilfering 88 bases in 1912 and 75 in 1913, F. C. Lane of Baseball Magazine called him “Milan the Marvel, the Flying Mercury of the diamond, the man who shattered the American League record, and the greatest base runner of the decade.”

It was hyperbole, of course; Cobb re-claimed the AL record in 1915 by stealing 96 bases and went on to swipe far more bases over the decade than Milan, but Deerfoot stole a total of 481 during the Deadball Era, ranking third in the AL behind only Cobb (765) and Eddie Collins (564).

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1632819879

Thanks for sharing the card and the history. I did not know most of what you wrote.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

Well darn, I guess I'll have to flip them over and see if it says "American" or "National" Caramel.

You really don't. The caption font is different on the two issues.

[sulldux]

Scan 1.jpg

Scan 2.jpg

Hi Brian--Excellent research on the E220 set and its variations. Ive attached scans of Type 3 variations for Turner Barber and Art Wilson. I think you can add those to your database. It's interesting that the Type 3's are relatively scarce. Only 14% of my set (30 of 211)

Regards, Chris Sullivan

[SteveS]

Here are some of my E122s for comparison. Despite the obviously crappy condition, they are some of my favorites because I got the entire lot for a quarter at one of my first card shows in the mid-'70s when I was about ten years old.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by SteveS

Here are some of my E122s for comparison. Despite the obviously crappy condition, they are some of my favorites because I got the entire lot for a quarter at one of my first card shows in the mid-'70s when I was about ten years old.

Are we sure those are e122s?
Here is an e122 I used to own...I always look for the darkened, captioned area on the front bottom AND the back to determine if it's these or E220s....

[SteveS]

Oops. I meant e121. Somebody posted the e122s above, and it got stuck in my head. Sorry for the mistake. Getting older sucks.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by sulldux

Attachment 480650

Attachment 480651

Hi Brian--Excellent research on the E220 set and its variations. Ive attached scans of Type 3 variations for Turner Barber and Art Wilson. I think you can add those to your database. It's interesting that the Type 3's are relatively scarce. Only 14% of my set (30 of 211)

Regards, Chris Sullivan

Hi Chris, thanks for posting those two Type 3 cards...I have updated the lists. These lists wouldn't be as robust as they are if I had never received inputs from the Net54 community.

Type 2 and Type 3 are definitely the less commonly seen backs on these. Because of this, my brain wants to come up with a likely printing scenario for them. I think it possible that since 93 cards have been verified, that all 120 cards are available as Type 3. And since only 46 have been verified having Type 2 backs, that perhaps 60 is a nice logical amount to have been printed.

Of course with vintage card production, things are rarely straightforward, but my logical brain wants them to be, so I predict (and decree) that the E220 National Caramel set is likely the rare exception.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by SteveS

Oops. I meant e121. Somebody posted the e122s above, and it got stuck in my head. Sorry for the mistake. Getting older sucks.

My type of cards, even if they are E121.

Brian

[ValKehl]

Brian, thanks for providing all this info re the 3 different backs backs that are found on the E220 cards, which I never knew. I'm trying to achieve a master set of Sam Rice's cards, and the only E220 card of Rice (shown below) I have is the more common Type 1. If anyone has a Type 2 or Type 3 card they are willing to part with, I'll be most appreciative. It is interesting that this card says Rice is a 3rd baseman - I don't believe he ever played this position.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Brian, thanks for providing all this info re the 3 different backs backs that are found on the E220 cards, which I never knew. I'm trying to achieve a master set of Sam Rice's cards, and the only E220 card of Rice (shown below) I have is the more common Type 1. If anyone has a Type 2 or Type 3 card they are willing to part with, I'll be most appreciative. It is interesting that this card says Rice is a 3rd baseman - I don't believe he ever played this position.

No problem Val. I like to share when it comes to card info. Definitely Type 3 cards of Rice have been seen. And you may get lucky with the Type 2...my research on these backs has been real sporadic over the years, so Rice may be one of those undiscovered Type 2 cards that are bound to be lurking out there.

Brian

[Leon]

Nice info guys!

E220s from my last collection.. (scans are messed up, cards are the same size )

[brianp-beme]

The E220 Jim Bagby card has my all-time favorite misspelling of a player's name.

Brian

Originally Posted by Leon

Nice info guys!

E220s from my last collection.. (scans are messed up, cards are the same size )

[investinrookies]

Great thread with good info, thanks for putting it out there. Love the image and rarity of the issue.

[investinrookies]

I decided to break down the total number of backs of the E220 Babe Ruth's using VCP as a my resource. This was very easy to do since the card has very few compiled previous sales due to its scarcity. Only the cards where the back images could be confirmed were used in the totals.

Breakdown by Back Type for the E220 Babe Ruth:

Type 1-SGC 7, PSA 5=12 total
Type 2-zero (which is inline with the list provided above)
Type 3-SGC 3, PSA 3=6 total

The type 3 back vs the type 1 back for the Ruth card shows the Type 3 back is 50% rarer than the Type 1 back. Further validates that the Type 3 cards are much rarer, especially in the case of Ruth.

[Casey2296]

I'll add this one I just picked up today.
_

[jp1216]

My one and only E220

[yanksfan09]

Great set! Here's my best 2:

This is actually the 3rd different Ruth I've owned from the set, I've had an Auth and a Grade 1 that weren't nearly as nice as this one! It's an awfully tough card to find in any type of halfway decent shape!!

[investinrookies]

Originally Posted by yanksfan09

Great set! Here's my best 2:

This is actually the 3rd different Ruth I've owned from the set, I've had an Auth and a Grade 1 that weren't nearly as nice as this one! It's an awfully tough card to find in any type of halfway decent shape!!

I noticed that as well when I was looking at all the vcp images of this card that have sold in the past. Most are not very nice and almost all are badly off centered or have other issues. That being said the image is vintage Ruth at his finest and not seen on a lot of other cards like the throwing pose, making it that much more special and helps make up for the condition issues.


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[KMayUSA6060]

Sisler.

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by yanksfan09

Great set! Here's my best 2:

This is actually the 3rd different Ruth I've owned from the set, I've had an Auth and a Grade 1 that weren't nearly as nice as this one! It's an awfully tough card to find in any type of halfway decent shape!!

Great duo. Someday I'll add a Hornsby. One of my favorite Hornsby poses.

[oldjudge]

This is one of my favorite cards. I love the pose and it is special because it once belonged to my good friend John Esch.

[investinrookies]

OMG that's a nice E220 Ruth. Nearly impossible to find like that

[obcbobd]

About 10 years ago I got an email from a garbage man who found a bunch of E121s in a notebook that someone threw out in the trash. I guess he got my email from the OBC site. I bought the cards from him and they all soaked off easy peasy. Turns out some where E220's which I then started.

[Brian Van Horn]

Back upside down as you hold the card horizontally on the front.

[mrreality68]

Wow

Looking back on this thread

I put a post from Sept 2021 that I should start looking and get me one

Thanks to National I was able to ( as you saw on the National update post) almost a year later but mission accomplished

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Back upside down as you hold the card horizontally on the front.

The Chick Fewster card has a Type 3 back, as seen in post # 5.

Brian

[YankeeCollector]

One of my favs!

[Jobu]

Not quite sure why I bought this one, but here's mine.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by YankeeCollector

One of my favs!

Great looking card

[Clutch-Hitter]

My type card, a centered Earl