So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[insidethewrapper]

Kaline Clemente

WAR 92.9 94.8
Hits 3007 3000
HR 399 240
Bave .297 .317
R 1622 1416
RBI 1582 1305
SB 137 83
OBP .376 .359
SLG .480 .475
OPS .855 .834
AB 10,116 9,454

Some stats may favor Kaline because he batted 662 more times. But they seem very close in WAR,OBP,SLG and OPS. Both were very great defensive players.
I'll take both on my team.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's interesting that the common perception is that Clemente was significantly better. Ask most people, I think, where they rank both players and I bet on average you would get Clemente 40-50 (or even higher, a poster here had him on his all time starting team) and Kaline 90-100. But the numbers suggest much more of a dead heat.

[G1911]

I’d pick Kaline, by just a hair though. They are very close by any honest assessment.

Clemente was great, and greatly overrated. The emotional narrative is strong, and he fits into a contemporary narrative, as a victim of his times and a great humanitarian with a heroic death. It doesn’t change actual performance, where one may reasonably come down on either side.

What really surprised me is that their slugging is only .005 apart.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I’d pick Kaline, by just a hair though. They are very close by any honest assessment.

Clemente was great, and greatly overrated. The emotional narrative is strong, and he fits into a contemporary narrative, as a victim of his times and a great humanitarian with a heroic death. It doesn’t change actual performance, where one may reasonably come down on either side.

What really surprised me is that their slugging is only .005 apart.

Even leaving aside his death, Clemente had a LOT of charisma and was really a presence at the plate, my brothers and I as kids saw him in the 71WS in Baltimore and we thought we were watching God. There is also something to the notion that Forbes Field kept his HR numbers down some. Also, I think a lot of people (not Topps) admired him for being the first truly great (all respect to Minoso) Latin ballplayer, if I can still use that term.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Even leaving aside his death, Clemente had a LOT of charisma and was really a presence at the plate, my brothers and I as kids saw him in the 71WS in Baltimore and we thought we were watching God. There is also something to the notion that Forbes Field kept his HR numbers down some. Also, I think a lot of people (not Topps) admired him for being the first truly great (all respect to Minoso) Latin ballplayer, if I can still use that term.

Not Topps? I was hoping to get a dozen posts in before it became about race, but when did Topps say or do anything negative about the man? He went by Bob a lot and was not offended by it, as I recall from other threads.

[D. Bergin]

I think it’s more a case of Kaline being under-rated, rather than Clemente being over-rated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Not Topps? I was hoping to get a dozen posts in before it became about race, but when did Topps say or do anything negative about the man? He went by Bob a lot and was not offended by it, as I recall from other threads.

https://fourcrickets.wordpress.com/2...emente%20hated.

This Bob vs. Roberto thing was always a point of contention for Clemente, whose Major League debut was in 1955. As a black person whose first language was Spanish, he faced a double dose of discrimination. The media and, obviously, the baseball card company Americanized his given name, calling him “Bob” or “Bobby” or even “Robby,” nicknames that Clemente hated. He had the audacity to insist on being called by his given name, Roberto.

[campyfan39]

Agree. Clemente was awesome but is overrated. All stars ⭐️ n all genres who die young are immortalized. Even musicians who choked on their own vomit are made immortal and their talent greatly exaggerated.

Originally Posted by G1911

I’d pick Kaline, by just a hair though. They are very close by any honest assessment.

Clemente was great, and greatly overrated. The emotional narrative is strong, and he fits into a contemporary narrative, as a victim of his times and a great humanitarian with a heroic death. It doesn’t change actual performance, where one may reasonably come down on either side.

What really surprised me is that their slugging is only .005 apart.

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911 and campyfan-

So, all knowing 1911, what does "triggered" mean? It sounds like it refers
to anyone who doesn't lay down for your tortured narratives, who actually
dissents rather than acquiesces. I'm sure that's just me though...

So, to be called incredibly emotional and factually wrong, aren't insults. Oh,
that's right. All I need do is cave to your aggression, then passive
aggression, then outright hostility- not to mention your errors- and all the
unpleasant terminology goes away. You make it sound so reasonable.

You can say the arguments for Roberto aren't compelling, but that doesn't
make you right. I can tell people all day long that I'm 6 feet tall, and it
won't change the fact that I'm 5'10".

Now then, get the bolts on your neck tightened and have a chat with
someone not named Siri or Alexa, might do you some good. Your tiny
bubble reeks of sadness (and Dorito dust, I'll wager..) No insult intended,
of course!

Campyfan- you should be ashamed. So Roberto was "awesome" but
"overrated"? Are you a burner account for G1911? Geesh, what an insane
comment, you contradict yourself within a 6 word sentence! I know this will
bounce off your forehead into space, but for posterity I'll point out Roberto
was NOT a "young athlete". His bona fides CLEARLY qualified him for HOF
status after a career that was probably 5 times longer than the average
tenure for a player. As for your remark about musicians choking on their
own vomit, perhaps you should lay off the crack pipe yourself. Good Lord!!

By now I'm sure you are both "triggered", no longer able to think
logically, and hopefully headed to your safe spaces. Once you've recovered,
keep in mind I've yet to say a SINGLE negative word about Al Kaline and
recognize his excellence. Neither of you can say the same about Roberto,
and neither could you stay on the *^*$!* topic despite your self-proclaimed
knowledge of it. Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911 and campyfan-

So, all knowing 1911, what does "triggered" mean? It sounds like it refers
to anyone who doesn't lay down for your tortured narratives, who actually
dissents rather than acquiesces. I'm sure that's just me though...

So, to be called incredibly emotional and factually wrong, aren't insults. Oh,
that's right. All I need do is cave to your aggression, then passive
aggression, then outright hostility- not to mention your errors- and all the
unpleasant terminology goes away. You make it sound so reasonable.

You can say the arguments for Roberto aren't compelling, but that doesn't
make you right. I can tell people all day long that I'm 6 feet tall, and it
won't change the fact that I'm 5'10".

Now then, get the bolts on your neck tightened and have a chat with
someone not named Siri or Alexa, might do you some good. Your tiny
bubble reeks of sadness (and Dorito dust, I'll wager..) No insult intended,
of course!

Campyfan- you should be ashamed. So Roberto was "awesome" but
"overrated"? Are you a burner account for G1911? Geesh, what an insane
comment, you contradict yourself within a 6 word sentence! I know this will
bounce off your forehead into space, but for posterity I'll point out Roberto
was NOT a "young athlete". His bona fides CLEARLY qualified him for HOF
status after a career that was probably 5 times longer than the average
tenure for a player. As for your remark about musicians choking on their
own vomit, perhaps you should lay off the crack pipe yourself. Good Lord!!

By now I'm sure you are both "triggered", no longer able to think
logically, and hopefully headed to your safe spaces. Once you've recovered,
keep in mind I've yet to say a SINGLE negative word about Al Kaline and
recognize his excellence. Neither of you can say the same about Roberto,
and neither could you stay on the *^*$!* topic despite your self-proclaimed
knowledge of it. Trent King

This guy is just absolutely insane and unhinged... Every thread needs one of them.

EDIT: My favorite part is the appeals to logic, while just venting his anger at 2 people, 1 of which has not even engaged with him at all. Maybe this dumbass will learn the Quote button in another decade.

[insidethewrapper]

They were very even in the World Series also:

Kaline HR - 2, RBI -8, Bave . 379 OPS 1.055 In 7 games.

Clemente HR - 2, RBI - 7 ,Bave .362 OPS .918 In 14 games.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

They were very even in the World Series also:

Kaline HR - 2, RBI -8, Bave . 379 OPS 1.055 In 7 games.

Clemente HR - 2, RBI - 7 ,Bave .362 OPS .918 In 14 games.

They played chess against each other 8 times and each won 4.

[Casey2296]

Dont know if I could choose between them both of them were loaded with class.
_

[clydepepper]

I think Clemente is the most obvious example of pure stats not showing everything...in his case not nearly everything.


The big difference, IMO, between Kaline's power numbers and Clemente's can be attributed to Clemente playing in Forbes Field for so long. If I'm remembering correctly (and that's a coin flip these days), Roberto was a line-drive, spray hitter and left-center and right-center in Forbes would be quite a poke!


I'll take Clemente eight-days-a-week and thrice on Sunday!



.

[Mike D.]

Loving the Hall of Stats love (my brother runs that site).

Also, a Clemente:

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Loving the Hall of Stats love (my brother runs that site).

Also, a Clemente:

Very cool! Great website! And great card.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Very cool! Great website! And great card.

Thanks! Most people are shocked to find out that I'm only the SECOND biggest baseball geek in my family.