What's your oldest baseball related item?

[Archive]

Posted By: Bruce Babcock

My oldest "ball" related item is this book, acquired from Barry Sloate. It dates from about 1845-1850. The picture clearly shows what appears to be a cricket game, but the term "ball" was apparently in use by this time.

[Archive]

Posted By: Adam J. Moraine

A ticket stub from a baseball game, with stub dating to the 18880's- 1890's.

Best Regards,

Adam J. Moraine

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie

Mark Macrae got it from...who got it from Scott Forrest. Who must have gotten
it form somewhere, cause he isn't that old...



Strictly cards, or strictly baseball? The Peck and Snyder Cincinatti Red Stockings, 1869.

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

At least it is a HOFer, Hamilton

[Archive]

Posted By: john/z28jd

I have a 150-way tie for first between my old judge cards,altho im sure some of them are 88-89 cards and 1 is a 1890...oh yeah and the 1 Buchner card that someone on the board grossly overcharged me on

If you meant non-cards i dont have anything pre-ww2

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Of Cal McVey (thanks, Scott!)

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason

I have a handful of Buchner's, OJ's and an N184 whatever they're called. (Can't remember at the moment)

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Elkins

an 1859 Harper's Weekly with some nice woodcuts of a Base Ball game at Hoboken.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob L

Mine would probably be some of the 19th Century baseballs that I have collected. These three balls are c1860 or earlier.

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

1874 Harper's Woodcut of the Boston team, including George Wright, Jim O'Rourke, and yes, Al Spalding.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Beadle's Dime Guide to Baseball - 1866

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin O

An 1850s Town Ball Bat. The oldest "purely" baseball item is a copy of Henry Chadwick's 1867 "Base Ball Player's Book of Reference" (and another tip of the cap to Scott).

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

Forgot to mention I have a newspaper from 1870 reporting the daily scores (with boxscores, I think) from the first openly professional season. It also reports on a plan to admit Canada as part of the US, and a story on the passage of the 15th amendment to the constitution.

[Archive]

Posted By: three25hits

"the first openly professional season"

Not that there is anything wrong with that...

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason

Below are a few of my earlier items. If anyone wants any of the scans please let me know!

1802 Youthful Recreations. Philadelphia J. Johnson (Trap Ball Woodcut)

1810c Childs Sports Book Youthful Sports For Mahlon Day, NY With Trap & Football Woodcuts After the 1802 Youthful Recreations Philadelphia J. Johnson book

1831 Baseball Writing Book Writing Book: Oxford NY, For George Hunt by Chapman & Flagler (Ball Woodcut)

1835 Childs Sports Book THE LITTLE KEEPSAKE or Easy Lessons, in Words of One Syllable (Early ball game woodcut)

1839c Childs Sports Book Village Green or Sports of Youth (Base Ball game woodcut)

1840 Babcock The Flock of Sheep; or Familiar Explanations of Simple Facts – Game of Ball woodcut on Title Pg

1849 Juvenile Pastimes; or Girls' and Boys' Book of Sports (baseball game woodcut)

1853c 3 Child Dag With One Holding A Ball (possibly baseball?)

1855 – 1859 Several Newspapers with box scores

1856 Early Reference To Baseball Book Collections of the Massachusetts Historical Society - Hard Cover. Very Fine. Ex-Library. History of Plymouth Plantation, by William Bradford.1621 (Christmas Day) Governor Bradford finds the men of Plymouth Plantation, Massachusetts, “frolicking in ye street, at play openly; some at pitching ye ball, some at stoole ball and shuch-like sport.” (Of Plimouth Plantation, Memoirs of William Bradford, 1620-1647, first published in the Proceedings of the Massachusetts Historical Society in 1856.)

1858 Little Charley's Games and Sports Book (base ball woodcut + info)

1864 THE AMERICAN BOY'S BOOK OF SPORTS OF GAMES (several BB game woodcuts + rules & info)

1861c Baseball Tintype of W.T. Lee of Aberdeen Maryland Holding Bat

1862c Brady CDV of Doubleday

1861-3 CDV of Unknown Potsdam NY BB CDV

1862c CDV Conrad Meyer of the Northside Greys by J.H. Meyer of Cinci Ohio

1862-66 CDV 3 Men In Star Cap Uniforms with Bats and Ball. Possibly Central City Team From Syracuse NY. Man on Right ID’s as David H Sanders.

1863c CDV Baseball Illustrated

1864c CDV Hanover NH BBC

1864c CDV Doubleday

1866 CDV Currier & Ives National Game Baseball Game Scene. Baltimore Baseball Emporium AD Ad back

1864 CDV Boy With Baseball Providence RI

1865c CDV Man Standing Posed With FD Written On Bat

1866c Baseball Sheet Music Lowell Base Ball Club of Boston, MA

1867 Invitation Lincoln Base Ball Club Ball Invitation

1867 Beadle’s Base Ball Guide

1868 Invitation Geary BBC Phili Ball Invitation

1868 –1871 20 or so Oliver Optics

1870c CDV 2 Lowell Players with Ball By The Renowned Warren of Boston

1871 Stratford BBC Imperial Cabinet with Jim Orator O'Rourke Rookie

1871 Imperial Cabinet Nameless BBC(actual name), Gerard, Erie County, PA

1871c Tintype J Bib Player

1871 & 1873 Dewitt’s Base Ball Guides

1873c Colour Baseball CDV Unknown MA Playerhttp://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1103709365.JPG

[Archive]

Posted By: Andy Baran

Jason,

Is that 1871 Stratford Cabinet a minor league team? Any chance that you could post a scan of it? Thanks.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason

Hi Andy, Please find the Stratford cabinet as requested. The photo is underlined "Osceola Baseball Club of Stratford. Champions of Connecticut, 1871."

[Archive]

Posted By: Andy Baran

THANKS!

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jason,
Could you post scans of the dag with child holding a ball, and the tintype you dated 1861? How are you dating these? 1861 is extremely early for both tintypes and CdV's; my experience is that they might be a few years later. Also, there has never been a dag found that shows someone holding a ball and bat, or in any baseball uniform whatsoever. A dag with a child holding a ball sounds pretty special. Thanks for your trouble. Sincerely, Barry Sloate

[Archive]

Posted By: Howard W. Rosenberg

A 1906 Cap Anson for sheriff of Chicago button. He didn't win, after having a rocky tenure as city clerk.

[Archive]

Posted By: Josh K.

An 1887 (or is that 1888 Hal?) Allen & Ginter Tim Keefe.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob L

I have seen closeup scans of Jason's dag with the child holding the apparent ball. It is very intriguing. The object does appear to be a ball and when I blew it up, it may have had stitching. I'm not an expert on dating some of these photos, but I think Jason is. Could be one of the earliest baseball related images out there.


BTW, I also just picked up a first edition (1864) copy of American Boy's Book of Sports and Games which describes early ball games.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Forrest

Oldest current stuff is an 1891 Players League Schedule I got from Barry Sloate (my favorite item) and several baseball cabinets from the same era.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Josh:

It is 1888.



In fact... the fine folks at Old Cardboard have already made this correction!

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason

Hi Guy's,

I am a little behind with Christmas and all that but I will post a scan of the dag and discuss a few items in more detail tomorrow.

[Archive]

Posted By: Darren J Duet

Old Judge cards.

[Archive]

Posted By: ramram

An 1867 base ball scorebook. A close second goes to eleven 1869 cabinets of a group of baseball players (Kearsarge team). I have had several civil war diaries and letters with mention about baseball in them but they have departed. I even had a Union POW soldier who mentioned about playing baseball against the officers while imprisoned in Tyler, Texas.

I wish Barry Sloate had the time to list what he has owned...just pre-1870. I think it would put everbody to shame, even Barry Halper's early material. It would probably take him a week just to list them all...but if he ever gets bored, maybe he'll give us the pleasure.

Rob M.

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

If Barry could put Jason's list to shame (see above), I would really be impressed.

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie

.......

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Actually, I've sold off most of my material, but if you would like to see a list of important early pieces I once had or still own, I will be happy to offer a sampling:

1) 1787 A Little Pretty Pocketbook- early English book reissued in America with baseball woodcut and poem
2) 1834 Robin Carver's Book of Sports- first entirely American book that features baseball woodcut and rudimentary rules
3) 1835 Babcock's Boys Book of Sports- first American chap book which basically repeats Carver (also had 1838,39 editions)
4) 1852 Eagle BBC Constitution- inaugural constitution for the third club ever organized
5) two different ca. 1855 Alexander Cartwright daguerreotypes (quarter and sixth plates)
6) 1858 Fashion Course Scoresheet- hand scored sheet from the first Brooklyn- New York championship series ever played; also included scored games for Star of Brooklyn with Jim Creighton and Knickerbocker with Harry Wright
7) ca. 1858 baseball ambrotype- featured two players holding bat and ball which may be the earliest known image of players holding equipment
8) 1859 Base Ball Player's Pocket Companion- first book available to the public which featured serious discussion of New York and Massachusetts rules of the game.
9) 1859 NAABBP Consitution- second earliest known league constitution
10) 1860 Live Oak Polka- earliest color illustration of baseball ever issued in America
11) 1862 Excelsior Gold Ball- from game that was pitched by Jim Creighton

As I said, most I have already sold, but it is a nice sampling of some of the games earliest relics. They were all fun to own at one time. There were other pieces I owned from the 1850's, but my memory is not what it used to be.

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie

laugh along dotted line...

[Archive]

Posted By: ramram

Believe me, Barry has forgotten far more than he remembers!

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

I don't own too much in terms of 1800's memorabilia but I do have an authenticated 1871 letter written and signed by Abner Doubleday in response to an autograph request for his Civil War accolades (sp?).

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason

Barry, it would be much appreciated if you could post a couple images of your 1852 Eagle BBC Constitution and your 1858c Ambrotype!

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason

1853c 3 Child Dag With Ball
The child dag is an interesting one and in my mind is still open to debate about whether it is baseball related. My main problem here is that I don’t have the dam thing to hand – it is currently with my friend in the States so for the moment I have to rely on scans.

When I first saw this dag I thought that it may be a piece of fruit or just a rubber ball but after studying it more carefully I, like Rob, noticed what could be stitching on it. As Barry has already stated if it is a baseball then it is an exciting item but I just don’t know – maybe it is wishful thinking? What do the other board members think? As far as the dating goes it is pretty strait forward. Given the style of clothes and its original plain matt finish mount I believe it to date from the early to mid 1850’s.



1861c Maryland Tintype
The tintype is CDV size and sits in its original mount with the seals intact. Written on the paper seal at the back in period pencil is W. T. Lee Aberdeen Maryland. So far I cannot find any reference to WT Lee – maybe an informed board member may have come across him?

Dating it is not an exact science but I reckon it is from the early civil war period. Although tintypes came onto the scene in 1856 I do not believe this one to be any earlier than 1861.

A few different things have led me to this conclusion. First, the headgear resembles that of that of the1860 Nassau team and the oversize bat is reminiscent of those used by the 1858 Atwater team. I think the main giveaway though is the mount. As far as I am aware, these started to be used at the beginning of the war. The early mounts were plain (as with my specimen) and got more intricate as time went by. Later mounts (1864c) where heavily decorated with star motifs and the like.


1862c Potsdam NY CDV
The ball player has what was considered an early uniform on - slack like pants, white dress shirt, shiny dress like shoes and the railroad type cap. He also sports a belt, with a large buckle which has something embossed on it (indiscernible). He holds a baseball bat while a baseball lies on the shelf to his side. The cap is hand tinted as is the belt.

The back stamp displays C.W. Van Alstine in Potsdam, New York. Van Alstine is listed in The Daguerrian Registry as in the photographic business in Potsdam, New York from 1858.

Regarding dating on this item: As with the tintype, this image displays the large oversize bat and the 1860 Nassau like cap. The feel of the card is also very similar to that of the 1863 Jordan Grand Match at Hoboken CDV, which dated from 1863. The brown boarder CDV mount was in use from around 1861 – circa 1866.

Possibly the best evidence however comes from the album from which the CDV was removed. The album itself was inscribed Christmas 1861 on the inside cover. This in itself does not mean anything but there where 96 other CDV’s in the album with many displaying dates of 1861 and 1862 written on the cards. The latest date anywhere in the album was 1863 and this card was inserted near the beginning where most items where 1861/62.


1862 – 64c 3 Star Cap Ball Players From Syracuse NY CDV
This photo was displayed in a photo album that was purchased from an estate sale. The album was presented to its original owner 1862. It contains a number of CDV photos of Sanders family members from New York State.
The CDV is back stamped “6 South Salina St, Syracuse, NY, H' Lazier's Photographic Establishment, This Negative Preserved." It also has a pencil inscription "my brother David" which, according to other markings in the album stands for David H. Sanders -- a relative of the person who owned the photo album. (David is the young man on the right of the photo.). I also still have a later CDV (from the same album) of David Sanders in street clothes dated 1870 in pencil on the back (he looks at least 10 years older).
Once again they sport the large bats the early caps and the mount is of the brown boarder variety prevalent between 1861 – 1866. I have to admit though that for this CDV I am leaning towards a date of 1864.


1864c Hanover NH BBC CDV
I really like this one! Not only is it an early team image but it also has a few quirky things within the photo. On display are a ball, a large bat, a sign and a carved wooden parrot or Eagle (mascot or indication of team name?)!

The cdv has 10 men, in their early baseball uniforms. Some of the men seem to have on light colored pants with an outer darker stripe on each leg. The center man seated is holding a sign with a score of 40 – 14 (the score of a recently completed win over a rival?). The man on the right seated in chair is holding a bat with a large # 70 on it (a personal milestone for hits?). The man seated on the left in the chair is holding a brown colored baseball.

It is back stamped O.BLY - PHOTOGRAPHER, 25 MAIN ST. HANOVER, N.H. Once again the image is on the brown boarder mount and has most of the characteristics described on the other cdv’s.


1864c Child Holding Baseball CDV Providence RI
Not much to say about this one but it is similar to the Child Dag in composition. It is definitely a baseball that the lad is holding on this one (it doesn’t show up too well on the scans but there is definite lemon peel type stitching). Once again the image is on the brown boarder CDV mount and possesses the civil war revenue stamp on the back.


1863/64 Baseball Illustrated CDV
Although not of any actual players, I like this CDV. It is possibly one of the earliest cards which, actually says Base Ball on it. It is very quirky and gives early mentions to some now well know baseball terminology. To me it is like an advertising or business card for baseball. It seems like the only reason it was produced was to promote the national game itself. I don’t know a lot about the card but I was wondering if it could have been a promotion handed out with Frank Leslie’s Illustrated newspaper? Do any of the board members have any ideas on this theory?


1864/5 FD Bat CDV

Not much known about this one but the bat has the initials of FD written on it.


1869 - 73 Lowell CDV By Warren

A nice Image!

Feedback is welcomed and appreciated on any of the items mentioned!

[edited to crop one image]

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Rob, How expensive are those vintage balls? I'm always concerned about repros. Since Im not an expert that is a concern. Do you ever sell or trade them? Thanks

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Rob is right. I did remember a few other important early pieces I once had. My morning coffee helps remove the cobwebs:
12) 1859 Atwater BBC full plate tintype- the earliest known full plate baseball tintype, and perhaps earliest in any size or format
13) Approximately 8 different 1859-61 Knickerbocker BBC challenge letters, against teams such as Star, Excelsior, etc.
14) 1861 Brooklyn Atlantics team CdV- earliest known CdV image of an important team
15) 1864 Resolutes of Brooklyn CdV- very early image of Henry Chadwick holding a scorebook, plus images of Mort Rogers and Dick McBride

These have all since been sold. They come and go.

Jason, regarding scans- I don't know how to scan on this site; however, the 1858 ambrotype was sold in my February, 2003 auction and is pictured there. I can forward you an extra copy if you don't have one (what is your last name- are you on my mailing list?) The 1852 constituition is kind of plain and quite delicate- I might actually put it up for sale sometime in 2005, so I will at that time have some good digital images taken of it. I think it is 12 pp., and even has a rudimentary scorecard printed in the back, probably the earliest depiction of a scorecard in any printed text. That's all for now- happy holidays to all! Barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason

Thanks Barry, I think I am registered with you under the name of Jason Wright and I am fairly certain I have talked with you before (that guy from England). My e-mail address is earlybball@hotmail.com.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Of course Jason, now I remember you. We had that whole discussion of how to shorten your address so it would fit on a mailing label. I love all of the wonderful images you posted. Let me share a few thoughts. The dag is terrific, and the 1850's dating is accurate. And there is no question the boy on the right is holding a ball. However, there were literally dozens of games a child would use a ball for, so there is simply no way to ever determine that he was in the throes of a game of baseball when the picture was taken. My litmus test has always been not the presence of a ball, but of a bat. Only a few games used a bat, and only baseball used one with a round, and not flattened barrel. But I can't recall ever seeing a dag with anyone holding a ball, so yours is the best of that genre I've ever seen. Bravo! I once had a chance to purchase a miniature portrait ca. 1830-40 of a boy holding a ball; the dealer promised to hold it for me and when I drove up to Connecticut a few days later to get it, he said his partner had sold it to someone else. I was steamed, but what can you do.
The CdV images are wonderful, but I think your dating is a tad optimistic. I would say more like 1865, but why quibble. And never date any image-dag, tintype, ambro, or CdV- by the case it is in. Often, cases are purchased for the image at a later date and are not original to it. I always put aside nice cases just for those times when I purchased an uncased image. CdV sized thermoplastic cases are particularly difficult to find and I always had one or two aside for when I needed them. But it is great to see new CdV's that I haven't seen before, especially the team one. Mark Rucker is planning a book devoted exclusively to tintypes and CdV's- I'm sure he can always use more material. Thanks for sharing these. Barry

[Archive]

Posted By: ramram

I posted this on an earlier thread regarding some aids in helping to date tintypes. As Barry states - you must be careful with cased images since many people have added the cases more recently. ---

The cases can also help date the tintype. Cases for tintypes, for the most part, disappeared after the civil war (1865). This was because of cost. CDV's had become mainstream by the end of the war and cased tintypes were too expensive to compete with them. They began selling the tintypes without a case. For this reason, most uncased tintypes have bends, scratches and creases in them. Some people will purchase cases and place these old tintypes in them just to help protect them. This can sometimes make it difficult to date a tintype. This is when it becomes important to look at the type of clothing/uniform as well as the type of backdrop used in the image (for those that have seen a lot of tintypes, you can also tell the age by the focus...the background tends to be less well focused in the earlier images). Also, if the image has bends, which it wouldn't get if it had been cased since it's purchase, it probably was placed in the case more recently. You can also look for mat marks. Cased images have a brass "mat" over the top of them, usually in an oval or rectangular shape. These mats would usually leave a mark on the tintype. So...if there are mat marks it usually means it was original to the case and therefore most likely pre-1865. Another small hint can be in the backdrop. Pre-1865 tintypes usually have no backdrop or a very plain backdrop. Post-1865 images started having fancier backdrops including fake grass and split-rail fences.

By the way, here is the football tintype that David mentioned. It is circa 1870. It is the only football tintype that I have ever seen. It was uncased, with some small bends, when I got it (I placed it in a quarter-plate size case for its protection). Because the players have long pants on instead of knickers then the uniforms would hint at pre-1870. The fake grass and fancier backdrop hints at post-1865 as does the fact that it was originally uncased. Thus the dating of c. 1870.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Rob- You made a very interesting point about dating that I had never considered. I've always dated baseball images by the style of the uniform, which with a little experience you can get right within a couple of years. But I rarely considered the backdrop- particularly the point you made that early tintypes have fuzzier backgrounds. Have you always found that to be true? Another way to date CdVs is by the style of the mount. They seemed to get fancier, particularly the photographer's advertising, in the 1870's; those from the previous decade are simpler and usually have the line around the four borders. But if you have seen enough images, and I've seen literally hundreds, you kind of develop a sixth sense and the dating really isn't that hard.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob L

The price range of the 19th Century baseballs pictured ranged from $250 to $ 350. It really is condition dependent as well as the ball type, ie. belt and gusset balls are rarer than lemon peels which are rarer thtan the Figure 8 balls.

Repros are pretty easy to identify. The HOF has sold lemon peel balls for a number of years now and there are quite a few companies that make them now for use in the VBBA. Most of the times, these are tightly wound and have a slick thread that is used for stitching. In terms of people actually making them today pass off as an actual 19th century baseball, I don't think there is alot of call for it (not enough collectors to make it really worthwhile).

As far as selling or trading, I won't sell any but I might be up for trading. I am working on writing an article on the development of the 19th century baseball and have been collecting data and photos on as many baseballs from the 19th century as possible.

Rob L

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike Hoevet

Rob, I would like to email you a photo of some balls I have. Any information would be greatly appreciated. I would love to pick your brain a bit. Much thanks. Mike

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason

Thanks Barry and Rob for your feedbacks! I am aware of the later case-switching problem but both the tintype sleeve and the Dag case are both sealed with their original paper tape. You can also tell most of the time anyway if the case has been replaced once the image is opened up and the contours of the brass mount don’t fit.

Happy Holidays everyone!

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob L

Hi Mike, I can be reached at loefflerrd@aol.com.

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

Jason, provided us with a mini-museum. I haven't seen that many early 1860s baseball photos all at once, even in a MastroNet auction.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

A newbie here. Glad to find this site. I recently acquired a Harper's Weekly wood (according to the dealer, but I believe metal plate) engraving published on October 15, 1859 in a 16" x 23" format depicting in the top half a panoramic engraving 6" x 20" labeled "The Cricket Match Played at Hoboken on October 3-6, 1859, Between the All England Eleven and the United States Twenty-Two". Below that, is an identical sized engraving labeled "A Base-Ball Match at the Elysian Fields, Hoboken". The entire playing field for each game is displayed with large crowds and carriages collected around the edge of the fields. The article on the back of the image explains how to play cricket. The baseball umpire is seated in a chair about 10 feet behind the catcher who is 15 feet behind the batter.

If anybody wants me to, I can reduce it a bit and then scan it.

Anybody know a good site to collect vintage autographs of Highlanders and pre-DiMaggio Yankees?

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie Vognar

related to baseball...I have 8-9, but none that early.

Not an autograph collector.

[Archive]

Posted By: Randy

That's interesting. I paid $75. How'd I do?