1989 Fleer Randy Johnson #381 Marlboro Errors - 30 Years Later

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

Andy,

Sorry, both of those are examples of cards with the rectangle area from the obstruction on them. I uploaded 100 or so images onto my Flickr account before I realized that my remaining images were in pdf format and that I needed to have them as JPEG to upload. You can view multiple images of variations that either have or don't have the rectangle in the area left and above Randy's head there.


https://flic.kr/s/aHsmccCSY8

Hatorade,

Are the slightly darker rectangular boxes that I've circled what you are talking about? Again, sorry for my ignorance here, I'm just trying to learn something new.

Thanks again,

AndyH

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Hatorade,

Are the slightly darker rectangular boxes that I've circled what you are talking about? Again, sorry for my ignorance here, I'm just trying to learn something new.

Thanks again,

AndyH

Yes those are the rectangles he is referring to.

[Hatorade]

Andy

Yes, as Ben confirmed, those are two examples of the rectangles. The rectangles can be very faint as well as others that are more prominent. I was hoping someone could answer if this is an obstruction from something that was possibly a small piece of cardboard or from something else during the printing process. Would the area be progressively effected as the item got in the way and essentially caused a more prominent rectangular stamp on the cards from the area continually being blocked? Also, if there was an item obstructing the printing process once it was removed would the rectangular area instantly disappear? Anyone's help here would be greatly appreciated.

Ben

I think you are essentially correct on those green scribble versions. Is the attached image pretty close to version #3?

I also wanted to take step back and post a link to our fellow board member's site with a ton of info on the Marlboro errors. The site has been essential for knowledge on these cards and moving the general discussion forward on them. I think the site probably lead to some of the flip changes at BGS, which is really cool. There are 13 cards pictured in the article and I wanted to get Dylan, Ben and others' opinions regarding the cards pictured all being different variations or if, for example, the two green or red cards pictured are the same card with slight differences resulting from something that Fleer had done inadvertently.

https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/20...ro-variations/

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

Andy

Yes, as Ben confirmed, those are two examples of the rectangles. The rectangles can be very faint as well as others that are more prominent. I was hoping someone could answer if this is an obstruction from something that was possibly a small piece of cardboard or from something else during the printing process. Would the area be progressively effected as the item got in the way and essentially caused a more prominent rectangular stamp on the cards from the area continually being blocked? Also, if there was an item obstructing the printing process once it was removed would the rectangular area instantly disappear? Anyone's help here would be greatly appreciated.

Ben

I think you are essentially correct on those green scribble versions. Is the attached image pretty close to version #3?

I also wanted to take step back and post a link to our fellow board member's site with a ton of info on the Marlboro errors. The site has been essential for knowledge on these cards and moving the general discussion forward on them. I think the site probably lead to some of the flip changes at BGS, which is really cool. There are 13 cards pictured in the article and I wanted to get Dylan, Ben and others' opinions regarding the cards pictured all being different variations or if, for example, the two green or red cards pictured are the same card with slight differences resulting from something that Fleer had done inadvertently.

https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/20...ro-variations/

Yes from your picture that looks like the 3rd version.

Dylan has a great site, the green scribble I have pictured is from his site. I have a horrible time getting scans that show the Marlboro section clearly.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

With the Johnson and Ripken there are several distinct variations made where the original plate was altered. That is clear.
It is important to keep in mind that cards are printed on a printing press - and it is an imperfect process. Sometimes there is too much of one color ink and too little of another. Sometimes there is ink spray. Sometimes a plate moves and the colors are out of register. There may also be human error involved. There may be bleeding, smudging, etc, etc. If you look at 100 examples of the any one card, you can find lighter, darker, blurry, crisp, yellow tint, red tint, and so on.
Johnson had a few different versions - but those are limited to the actual alterations on the plate. The others have to be classified as print defects.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

With the Johnson and Ripken there are several distinct variations made where the original plate was altered. That is clear.
It is important to keep in mind that cards are printed on a printing press - and it is an imperfect process. Sometimes there is too much of one color ink and too little of another. Sometimes there is ink spray. Sometimes a plate moves and the colors are out of register. There may also be human error involved. There may be bleeding, smudging, etc, etc. If you look at 100 examples of the any one card, you can find lighter, darker, blurry, crisp, yellow tint, red tint, and so on.
Johnson had a few different versions - but those are limited to the actual alterations on the plate. The others have to be classified as print defects.

While this is true for many scrutinized and popular variations, this is not so simple regarding the Randy Johnson changes. In fact, my blog noting 13 variations is just meant as a simplified guide to the amount of distinct “types” which there are definitely more than four of even when removing print flaw/plate shift type aberrations from the equation.

I have personally seen far more variations in these cards than I had at the point of publishing that article. If you take a decent size sampling of any one of the major “types” I.E. “red box” “green tint” etc etc, you’ll find that there are several variations within each. Real variations where alterations were made to the plate as efforts to obscure the sign. Shape of the bar over the word, box size, and saturation and density of coloring/masking over sign area and on and on. These are NOT the same as color tone differences due to different ink levels and plate alignment. After 16 years of studying thousands of copies of these cards, I am very confident that there exists at least a couple dozen unique versions of this card.

And finally, for the record, I am no longer confident that a clear version ever made its way into packs. The one and only image I’ve seen, also shown on my blog, no longer feels convincing to me that photoshop wasn’t involved. I’d like to be wrong and with this card, anything is possible but I remain skeptical.

[bnorth]

[QUOTE=jacksoncoupage;1842730]While this is true for many scrutinized and popular variations, this is not so simple regarding the Randy Johnson changes. In fact, my blog noting 13 variations is just meant as a simplified guide to the amount of distinct “types” which there are definitely more than four of even when removing print flaw/plate shift type aberrations from the equation.

I have personally seen far more variations in these cards than I had at the point of publishing that article. If you take a decent size sampling of any one of the major “types” I.E. “red box” “green tint” etc etc, you’ll find that there are several variations within each. Real variations where alterations were made to the plate as efforts to obscure the sign. Shape of the bar over the word, box size, and saturation and density of coloring/masking over sign area and on and on. These are NOT the same as color tone differences due to different ink levels and plate alignment. After 16 years of studying thousands of copies of these cards, I am very confident that there exists at least a couple dozen unique versions of this card.

And finally, for the record, I am no longer confident that a clear version ever made its way into packs. The one and only image I’ve seen, also shown on my blog, no longer feels convincing to me that photoshop wasn’t involved. I’d like to be wrong and with this card, anything is possible but I remain skeptical.[/QUOTE]

Is the supposed clear sign card pictured on you website the same one that ended up in a PSA slab. They look the same, but I can't find a pic of the PSA one right now.

I have never been comfortable with that card for a few reasons. The main one being that the only clear part of the sign is the white part. Because I know there is a real card out there I figured it was altered. If it was a real clear sign card everything would be clear. The cowboy would be easier to see and the top of the sign would be the bright red it is supposed to be.

There is another version like the one on the left but with way less red ink. I believe that version was altered to make the "clear sign" version. They look exactly the same except the white area has been cleaned up on the altered(IMHO) card.

[Hatorade]

Here is a copy of the clear version in the PSA slab that I saved from another thread. I’ve also attached a photo of the Marlboro ad from The Vet that I found.

[Athos01]

Hi guys! My name is Kevin, and I am the owner of the clear sign PSA 9 Johnson Marlboro.

I purchased this card on eBay about 10 years ago, as I've never seen a Marlboro this clear. I have been collecting cards for 30 years now, and have opened tons and tons of '89 Fleer. I am a huge Bill Ripken collector and other errors as well.

It is unfortunate that all of you believe my card is a fake. I know I sent Dylan a small pic years ago of the Marlboro sign on my card, and the pic posted by Hatorade is of my card.

I would be happy to show you the card in person at the 2019 National convention. I have no reason at all to photoshop this card.

As for the questions regarding clarity, the pic was a close-up of Randy, and he was nowhere near the OF bleachers. Additionally, it does not appear to be an extremely bright and sunny day, so the sign itself may have shadows from the sun on the red part at top and the cowboy as well.