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  #1  
Old 04-14-2021, 11:18 AM
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Default Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

Another day, another significant allegation about altered cards, this time SGC graded CJs in the current Heritage among others. Including an SGC 9 1915 Walter Johnson allegedly "improved" from a 5. As always, form your own judgments.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1460488
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 04-14-2021 at 11:23 AM.
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  #2  
Old 04-14-2021, 12:21 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Another day, another significant allegation about altered cards, this time SGC graded CJs in the current Heritage among others. Including an SGC 9 1915 Walter Johnson allegedly "improved" from a 5. As always, form your own judgments.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1460488

Have we reached a point to where the grading companies are just Guessing ????
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  #3  
Old 04-14-2021, 12:27 PM
Arazi4442 Arazi4442 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
Have we reached a point to where the grading companies are just Guessing ????

For me, that’s been the real question for awhile now. Are the TPGs incompetent or are the corrupt, giving higher grades and ignoring altered cards for preferred/ high volume submitters?
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  #4  
Old 04-14-2021, 12:57 PM
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This is disgraceful. Perhaps it is time for the Heritage Rep (Pete) to come onboard here and have a frank discussion. We need to know what Heritage is doing specifically to combat this ongoing fraud. Are they confronting their dirty consignors at all? If so, what are the consequences? Who (if anyone) have they blacklisted? Heritage's track record has been to turn a blind eye and let these fraudulent auctions run their course.

Heritage is very adept at hyping their own auctions and promoting their wares. No hesitancy there. Now it's time they use their advanced communication skills to explain how these altered/numerically graded cards keep showing up in their auctions.

If we are complacent about this, it will only continue to get even worse. Any collector who cares about the hobby should be bombarding Heritage with calls and concerns. Otherwise, if collectors are too blinded by greed to recognize the massive failure of the TPGs, I suppose they'll get what they deserve.

Just my two cents.
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  #5  
Old 04-14-2021, 12:36 PM
aconte aconte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
Have we reached a point to where the grading companies are just Guessing ????
That may have happened long ago. We just didn't know it.

I can't believe someone would work on a CJ graded a 5 or 8.5. That's having
confidence in your work and no respect for the grading company.

Interesting that the OP can trace this down to original submission numbers.
Good thing SGC uses random cert#'s now.
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  #6  
Old 04-14-2021, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aconte View Post
I can't believe someone would work on a CJ graded a 5 or 8.5. That's having
confidence in your work and no respect for the grading company.

That's my first thought to. These cards were already high-end.

I'm always skeptical when one of these threads pop up. Mostly because I don't want to believe this is as pervasive as it is. Then I look at the evidence shown, and almost every time it's a no doubter.

It's a miracle any Cracker Jacks survived through the years in 4 or 5 condition. Let alone 8's, 9's, and 10's with pointy corners and snow white borders.

These cards simply didn't exist when I was doing card shows in the 80's.

Sure, there was plenty of trimming and re-coloring going on then by raw card sellers. Hell, I think re-colored 1971 Topps have been around since 1972, LOL! ......But it was almost always sloppy as sh*t, and easy to spot from a mile away.

Sad it's come to this. Those cards were beautiful already.
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  #7  
Old 04-14-2021, 01:02 PM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
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  #8  
Old 04-14-2021, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Bergin View Post
It's a miracle any Cracker Jacks survived through the years in 4 or 5 condition. Let alone 8's, 9's, and 10's with pointy corners and snow white borders.

These cards simply didn't exist when I was doing card shows in the 80's.
They don't exist now either. Not in their natural state, anyway.
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  #9  
Old 04-14-2021, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
They don't exist now either. Not in their natural state, anyway.

To be fair. They exist. They just happened to find the fountain of youth at some point between 1985 and 2021.

A little nip here.......a little tuck there..........presto, bingo, you're a Super Model now.











Last edited by D. Bergin; 04-14-2021 at 02:29 PM.
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  #10  
Old 04-14-2021, 01:10 PM
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I think it's only a matter of time before the skill that goes in "restoring" these cards, becomes an actual selling point in the resale market.

Too many high dollar collectors have waaaaaaaay too many of these cards in their collections for it to go any other way.

I mean, if we can sell NFT's to the general public..........why not "card art and restoration"?

"I turned my 5 into a 10", will be flouted openly among "market traders".......and likely sooner then most people think.

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  #11  
Old 04-14-2021, 01:13 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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We are at a Point Where People Spending Big Money on these Cards in Auctions DO NOT CARE HOW MUCH WORK HAS BEEN DONE ON THE CARD AS LONG AS IT'S IN A PSA OR SGC HOLDER WITH A NUMERICAL GRADE, THAT"S ALL THAT MATTERS.

SADLY ZERO IS GOING TO CHANGE, OTHER THEN RECORD HIGH SALES.

Last edited by Johnny630; 04-14-2021 at 01:14 PM.
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  #12  
Old 04-14-2021, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Bergin View Post
I think it's only a matter of time before the skill that goes in "restoring" these cards, becomes an actual selling point in the resale market.

Too many high dollar collectors have waaaaaaaay too many of these cards in their collections for it to go any other way.

I mean, if we can sell NFT's to the general public..........why not "card art and restoration"?

"I turned my 5 into a 10", will be flouted openly among "market traders".......and likely sooner then most people think.

Pretty good hypothesis, and definitely a possibility. Not much difference between a virtual image and an enhanced one.

I suppose if it really goes that route, the TPGs will pretty much be rendered as useless and obsolete. The grade of "A" will be the same as "10". And in many cases, it already is!
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  #13  
Old 04-14-2021, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Bergin View Post
I think it's only a matter of time before the skill that goes in "restoring" these cards, becomes an actual selling point in the resale market.
I think it is already in existence. I do not remember if it was posted here or a different forum, but there are groups on facebook where card fixers get together to share advice on how to restore cards. Maybe it was here. I don't know if these groups go as far as being considered buyers clubs, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Especially if the grading companies continue to accept the restored cards and people are making money off of it.

But there will always be purists in cards that do not believe that anything should be altered or restored. Same as with anything. Such as for years we are always hearing about the purists of baseball hating on this rule or that rule or players flipping bats or celebrating. It is just part of life.
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  #14  
Old 04-17-2021, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Bergin View Post
That's my first thought to. These cards were already high-end.

I'm always skeptical when one of these threads pop up. Mostly because I don't want to believe this is as pervasive as it is. Then I look at the evidence shown, and almost every time it's a no doubter.

It's a miracle any Cracker Jacks survived through the years in 4 or 5 condition. Let alone 8's, 9's, and 10's with pointy corners and snow white borders.

These cards simply didn't exist when I was doing card shows in the 80's.

Sure, there was plenty of trimming and re-coloring going on then by raw card sellers. Hell, I think re-colored 1971 Topps have been around since 1972, LOL! ......But it was almost always sloppy as sh*t, and easy to spot from a mile away.

Sad it's come to this. Those cards were beautiful already.
This!!! I too was a regular at cards shows in the late 80s and early 90s and you NEVER saw high-grade vintage. I'm not blaming buyers, but it's kinda naive to think that a Cracker Jack card that's more than 100 years old could be in mint condition. Same with a T206 card that was packed in a tight little box with cigarettes. After all, protective holders didn't come out until, what, the 70s or 80s?

Last edited by shagrotn77; 04-17-2021 at 07:52 PM.
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  #15  
Old 04-17-2021, 08:38 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shagrotn77 View Post
I'm not blaming buyers, but it's kinda naive to think that a Cracker Jack card that's more than 100 years old could be in mint condition.
1 - Why not, it's their fault.

2 - Kinda? Hahahaha.

Last edited by doug.goodman; 04-17-2021 at 08:39 PM.
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  #16  
Old 04-17-2021, 08:40 PM
robertsmithnocure robertsmithnocure is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shagrotn77 View Post
This!!! I too was a regular at cards shows in the late 80s and early 90s and you NEVER saw high-grade vintage. I'm not blaming buyers, but it's kinda naive to think that a Cracker Jack card that's more than 100 years old could be in mint condition. Same with a T206 card that was packed in a tight little box with cigarettes. After all, protective holders didn't come out until, what, the 70s or 80s?
I get what you are saying, but 1915 Cracker Jacks were available as complete sets and custom albums were available. If a set was immediately put in an album, I assume that they could be soaked out. That scenario could yield some pristine cards.

Last edited by robertsmithnocure; 04-17-2021 at 08:41 PM.
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  #17  
Old 04-15-2021, 02:14 PM
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The entire concept is completely subjective and ripe for problems. Congrats to people who love it and make money from it but this is one of several reasons I don't have any slabbed cards.
Just my .02


Quote:
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Have we reached a point to where the grading companies are just Guessing ????
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  #18  
Old 04-23-2021, 10:36 AM
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The entire concept is completely subjective and ripe for problems. Congrats to people who love it and make money from it but this is one of several reasons I don't have any slabbed cards.
Just my .02

Yep. Me neither. Never had one graded and never will. Just doesn't matter to me as a collector.
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  #19  
Old 04-15-2021, 06:36 AM
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What incentive do these grading companies have to actually discover these altered cards?

Doesn't PSA get a lot more attention if they have a 1915 CJ Joe Jackson in a PSA 9 than a PSA 4? They aren't going to research every card like the skilled guys over on blowout do. They have a 6 month backlog as it is - and they are grading a card ever 90 seconds.

It really is a shame - but until buyers stop paying up for altered cards it won't stop.
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Old 04-23-2021, 10:33 AM
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What incentive do these grading companies have to actually discover these altered cards?

Doesn't PSA get a lot more attention if they have a 1915 CJ Joe Jackson in a PSA 9 than a PSA 4? They aren't going to research every card like the skilled guys over on blowout do. They have a 6 month backlog as it is - and they are grading a card ever 90 seconds.

It really is a shame - but until buyers stop paying up for altered cards it won't stop.
Truth. Incentive, time and demand. No demand no market.
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  #21  
Old 04-15-2021, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Another day, another significant allegation about altered cards, this time SGC graded CJs in the current Heritage among others. Including an SGC 9 1915 Walter Johnson allegedly "improved" from a 5. As always, form your own judgments.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1460488

Huggins and Scott knows who bought them

SGC knows who graded them

Heritage knows who consigned them
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  #22  
Old 04-15-2021, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
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Huggins and Scott knows who bought them

SGC knows who graded them

Heritage knows who consigned them
Omerta is the rule of this hobby. As I've said many times, the unholy alliance among card doctors, TPGs and AHs.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 04-15-2021 at 12:31 PM.
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  #23  
Old 04-15-2021, 12:35 PM
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Omerta is the rule of this hobby. As I've said many times, the unholy alliance among card doctors, TPGs and AHs.
Just for those of us not "in the know"... what the hell is Omerta?
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Old 04-15-2021, 12:36 PM
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Just for those of us not "in the know"... what the hell is Omerta?
Mafia Code of Silence.
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  #25  
Old 04-15-2021, 12:49 PM
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I see the 1915 Tris Speaker 9.5 on the thread. I went to Heritage and blew the image up and can't see anything that looks obvious as alterations. But I'm no expert. Does anyone else see anything that looks off?
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