So, what is the norm now?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by conor912

I realize there are a lot of moving parts to this argument, but the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that anything short of destroying these cards is doing a disservice to the future of the hobby.

While I agree in spirit there's no way an auctioneer can destroy a consignor's card without permission.

We do actually destroy fake autographs when we can get permission, but a trimmed card still has value and I can't imagine a consignor allowing us to destroy one.

[MattyC]

It's certainly trickier than one would think at first blush. It's hard for an AH business to take a knee-jerk action based on anonymous posts on random message boards. Unfortunately in society today, most anonymous internet posting is usually drivel or toxic invective.

That said, obviously such a business also wouldn't want to sell a card that has indeed slipped past the TPG goalie.

I'd therefore hope an AH would have in-house experts who take a long hard look at any purported evidence, and also consult with the TPG, then make a determination. If the hypothetical card is determined trimmed by the TPG and AH experts, the TPG should intercede and take it back. In the event the AH and TPG disagree with each other after examination, with the AH convinced and the TPG upholding the grade, I'd hope the AH would tell the card's owner that it would like to either pull the card or amend the description. If I ran the AH, I'd pull the card; there are enough lots in an auction where I wouldn't need or want a questionable apple in there.

[RedsFan1941]

i see that both of the cards have been pulled. before noon on the first business day after it was made public there are questions about the cards.

question for those saying the auction house should destroy the cards: let’s say last year you paid $200 for a PSA 5 card (never mind five figures for a PSA 8 Ruth) on eBay, at a show or from an AH. you consigned it to an auction house last month. tomorrow they call to say that an anonymous person on a message board says that your card is actually trimmed and not a PSA 5, so it has been destroyed. despite the auction house has no legal right to do that. you would be fine with that right?

oh yeah, and you are banned by the auction house despite having done absolutely nothing wrong.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

While I agree in spirit there's no way an auctioneer can destroy a consignor's card without permission.

We do actually destroy fake autographs when we can get permission, but a trimmed card still has value and I can't imagine a consignor allowing us to destroy one.

Understood. I wasn’t implying that. My comment was more macro. The card still existing, slabbed or otherwise, is a net negative for the hobby, IMO. Obviously there’s no good answer.

[chalupacollects]

Personally the card should be cracked re-holdered and marked with an invisible ink or ink that can be seen under a black light notating it is altered....

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

Personally the card should be cracked re-holdered and marked with an invisible ink or ink that can be seen under a black light notating it is altered....

how would you suggest that happen? should the auction house, which doesn’t own the card, ship it to sgc on their own? should the consignor of the card be told beforehand or will he just open his mailbox one day to find a former SGC 8 Ruth card now in an A holder? should sgc crack, mark and reholder without the owner’s permission? maybe all consignors from this point on should sign a waiver that if anyone in the hobby alleges fault with their cards, the owner forfeits any right to that card immediately. it sounds great for all the white knights to proclaim how the hobby needs cleaned up, but maybe spend 30 seconds giving some thought on what realistically can happen.

also, nothing takes the air out of a thread filled with righteous indignation and sideline quarterbacks quicker than the one auction house you would expect to do the right thing quickly does the right thing. poof! silence.

[Snapolit1]

Was thinking about a house sale, where the seller needs to do a disclosure of known issues. I wonder if it would have any conceivable effect if major AHs required some disclosure form where the consignor had to sign a statement that he took no steps to alter the cards and was unaware of any alteration by a third party. Not sure what that would accomplish but would at least be a sworn statement that you are unaware of fraud and not perpetrating a fraud.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Was thinking about a house sale, where the seller needs to do a disclosure of known issues. I wonder if it would have any conceivable effect if major AHs required some disclosure form where the consignor had to sign a statement that he took no steps to alter the cards and was unaware of any alteration by a third party. Not sure what that would accomplish but would at least be a sworn statement that you are unaware of fraud and not perpetrating a fraud.

I think it’s a decent idea. If a consignor signed it and then something is amuck and can be traced back to being done while in their possession, they’d certainly have some explaining to do. It could be a step in the right direction anyway.

[swarmee]

PSA's submission form includes language stating that already. Obviously, people lie.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by conor912

Understood. I wasn’t implying that. My comment was more macro. The card still existing, slabbed or otherwise, is a net negative for the hobby, IMO. Obviously there’s no good answer.

It's not necessarily a net negative.

Look at how other hobbies handle their altered/restored stuff.

Most of the experts organizations have their own reference collections of fakes and alterations that are used for education and training, an sometimes for comparison.
At least one collector organization maintains it's own collection of fake and altered items.

And there's a lot more honesty about alterations that have been found. (Obviously not 100%, but the dishonest dealers are either far fewer, or have learned to hide better)

[JollyElm]

cluegamevintagecardcollectors.jpg

[Natswin2019]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Attachment 427652

lol, I'm going to steal this

[swarmee]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1424063

Another time where PSA is re-certifying trimmed cards and they remain in the auction... Always get cheated, y'all.

[Rhotchkiss]

Never Get Cheated