Good Hitting Vintage Pitchers

[tedzan]

Tommy Byrne



Tommy batted .238 BAvg during his career; however, he had a .378 SLG avg, with 14 home runs (including 2 grand slams) and 98 RBI in 377 games.
He was such a good-hitting pitcher, Stengel would put him in the game as a pinch-hitter (in which he got 80 hits). His W-L pitching record was 85-69.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[jiw98]

Earl Wilson had 35 HRs and 111 RBSs in 11 years. 195 batting average isn’t horrible for a pitcher either.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by jiw98

Earl Wilson had 35 HRs and 111 RBSs in 11 years. 195 batting average isn’t horrible for a pitcher either.

Wilson twice hit 7 homers in a season. Only Ferrell ever hit more in a season and Wilson is the only guy to hit 7 twice (Drysdale did it once).

Wilson had enough power that he was used as a pinch hitter 28 times in his career.

[egri]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Carl Scheib yet. He hit .396 in 1951, and .250 over his career.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Wilson twice hit 7 homers in a season. Only Ferrell ever hit more in a season and Wilson is the only guy to hit 7 twice (Drysdale did it once).

Wilson had enough power that he was used as a pinch hitter 28 times in his career.

Didn’t Drysdale hit 7 in both ‘58 and ‘65?

Ferrell hit 9 in ‘31, 7 in ‘33, and 7 in ‘35.

[EddieP]

Ken Brett:

For all the talk of Shohei Ohtani being the best two-way prospect ever, Ken Brett came first. He was a phenom on the mound and in center field before he became a journeyman. About 30 years ago, John Garrity wrote a book called "The George Brett Story." This was shortly after George almost hit .400 and was one of the biggest sports stars in America. Garrity quoted George's father, Jack:
"I went to a game one time," Jack said, "and somebody said, 'Casey Stengel is in the stands today to see him.' Yogi Berra was there. Carl Hubbell came to see him. I thought, 'God. Maybe he's good.'
"He was Mister America -- it was almost like he was a man among boys. I thought he could be a decathlon athlete. ... And he had a knack for doing the right thing. He was very modest. He was quiet. He was somebody you could be proud of. ... I always wanted him to play for the Yankees. I wanted him to replace Mickey Mantle."
Only after a little while did Garrity reveal that Jack was not talking about George. He was talking about Ken Brett.
"To this day," George says, "people just flat out say that he may be one of the best all-around athletes to ever come out of Southern California. ... He could have gone to any college in the country on a football scholarship or baseball. And academically."
Mister America. Future Major League All-Star Scott McGregor grew up in the same neighborhood; he said that Ken was his idol. But he was everyone's idol, really. Ken was the fourth pick in the 1966 MLB Draft. Here's how different it was then, The Associated Press story that introduced him to America said this:
"Boston snatched Ken Brett, a 17-year-old schoolboy from El Segundo, Calif., who was recommended by scouts."
That's a weird line, right? Recommended by scouts? Why did they put that in there? Were other players in the draft NOT recommended by scouts?
But there is some underlying truth to it because scouts adored Ken Brett. He was the perfect prospect. He was smart. He was a good student. He was an incredible athlete. And he was equally gifted as a pitcher and a hitter; going into the Draft, nobody knew which way he would go. Joe Stephenson, the legendary Red Sox scout (and father of Jerry Stephenson, a big leaguer and himself legendary scout for the Dodgers), saw Brett hit and wanted him to play center field.
"Kemer [Ken Brett's nickname] was the best prospect I ever saw," Stephenson once told Peter Gammons. "Kemer was a combination of George, Fred Lynn and Roger Maris."

“H ow good a hitter could he have been?
"What you have to understand," Ken Brett's close friend, 1980 American League Cy Young winner Steve Stone, says, "is that when you have a brother like George Brett, a Hall of Famer, an all-time great, you become the other brother in the relationship. But what they don't understand is that Ken Brett could hit better than George. He could throw better than George. He could run better than George. He did just about everything better than George."
George concurs.
"Whoever was drafting fifth [Cubs] was taking him as a center fielder," George says. "Whoever was drafting sixth [Washington] was taking him as a center fielder. Whoever was drafting seventh [St. Louis] was taking him as a center fielder. I don't know how many teams there were in 1966 [20], but he was everybody's choice as a left-handed-hitting center fielder. He could run. He had a great arm, obviously. But the guy could frickin' hit "

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Didn’t Drysdale hit 7 in both ‘58 and ‘65?

Ferrell hit 9 in ‘31, 7 in ‘33, and 7 in ‘35.

Listen, if you want me to actually be accurate, you're gonna have to pay me more.

Also, thanks for the correction.

[bgar3]

I don’t know his overall batting stats but Tony Cloninger hit 2 grand slams in one game.
No one mentioned Joe Wood yet. Haven’t looked up his stats recently, but he was a good enough hitter to play the outfield after he stopped pitching.

[bgar3]

Just looked up his hitting stats, quite a good hitter as a pitcher and then even better as outfielder.
His great 1912 season, he was 34-5 pitching and hit .290, with 36 hits.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Tommy batted .238 BAvg during his career; however, he had a .378 SLG avg, with 14 home runs (including 2 grand slams) and 98 RBI in 377 games.
He was such a good-hitting pitcher, Stengel would put him in the game as a pinch-hitter (in which he got 80 hits). His W-L pitching record was 85-69.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

I was looking for pinch hitting stats for Ruffing and Lucas but can't find them on Baseball Reference, they only show appearances by position. I do see that his Wikipedia article says that Byrne had 80 pinch hits, but that does not seem likely given that he had only 93 appearances as a pinch hitter. But I can't find a source that has his full pinch hitting numbers.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by molenick

I was looking for pinch hitting stats for Ruffing and Lucas but can't find them on Baseball Reference, they only show appearances by position.

On Baseball Reference, you have to go in Advanced Batting to the Situational Batting stats; that is where the pinch hitting records are listed.

[RUKen]

Dode Criss led the American League in pinch hits in each of his four seasons with the St. Louis Browns, 1908-1911. According to my Baseball Encyclopedia (because Baseball Reference does not have individual pinch hitting stats from that time period), Criss was 35-for-147 as a pinch hitter in his major league career. He batted .341 in his rookie season and had a career average of .276. He pitched in 30 games during his career, with 21 of those in relief, and also played 26 games at first base and eleven in right field. His pitching stats are 3 wins and 9 losses with a 4.38 ERA, which is pretty bad for the deadball era.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by RUKen

On Baseball Reference, you have to go in Advanced Batting to the Situational Batting stats; that is where the pinch hitting records are listed.

Thank you, I knew it had to be there somewhere. Of some of the people mentioned:

Red Lucas was 117 for 430 (.272) with 2 HRs and 68 RBIs.
Red Ruffing was 56 for 214 (.262) with 2 HRs and 44 RBIs.
Wes Ferrell was 30 for 139 (.216) with 1 HR and 30 RBIs.
Tommy Byrne was 6 for 75 (.080) with 2 HRs and 11 RBIs.

I am not sure why Wikipedia says Byrne had 80 pinch hits. Maybe someone confused his batting average as a pinch hitter with the number of hits he had?

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by molenick

I am not sure why Wikipedia says Byrne had 80 pinch hits. Maybe someone confused his batting average as a pinch hitter with the number of hits he had?

My old Baseball Encyclopedia indicates that Byrne had 80 pinch at-bats, with just 6 hits. In any case, he clearly did not accumulate 80 pinch hits.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by molenick

I was looking for pinch hitting stats for Ruffing and Lucas but can't find them on Baseball Reference, they only show appearances by position. I do see that his Wikipedia article says that Byrne had 80 pinch hits, but that does not seem likely given that he had only 93 appearances as a pinch hitter. But I can't find a source that has his full pinch hitting numbers.

Michael

I have followed the Yankees from age 9. I have seen Tommy Byrne pinch-hit many times (1947 - 1957). If it is said that he hit safely 80 times pinch-hitting, then I tend to believe it.
Perhaps the "93 appearances" is considerably less than his actual pinch-hit At-Bats.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[molenick]

Ted, with all respect, I found Byrne's lifetime pinch hitting stats on Baseball Reference and he was 6 for 75. Also, his appearances as a pinch hitter (93) would have to be greater than his ABs, due to walks, sacrifices, etc. I guess it just depends on which source you trust more...I will take Baseball Reference over Wikipedia.

However, a pinch hit grand slam is nothing to sneeze at!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by molenick

Ted, with all respect, I found Byrne's lifetime pinch hitting stats on Baseball Reference and he was 6 for 75. Also, his appearances as a pinch hitter (93) would have to be greater than his ABs, due to walks, sacrifices, etc. I guess it just depends on which source you trust more...I will take Baseball Reference over Wikipedia.

However, a pinch hit grand slam is nothing to sneeze at!

Michael

Where you there to see (or hear) Tommy Byrne pitching and/or pinch-hitting) ?

I was an avid Baseball fan at a young age. If I wasn't watching BB on our TV, then I was listening to it on the radio. And, once in a while my folks would take us to Yankee Stadium.

Furthermore, my nearby neighbor in Hillside, NJ was Phil Rizzuto. Who would drive down our street to get to Yankee Stadium. Many times during that trip, Phil would stop and talk
with us kids.

For your information, the quote regarding Tommy Byrne' s pinch-hit grand slam HR was from SABR (not Wiki).

Tommy was one of my favorite Yankees. The memories of him have endured. Therefore, unless, you are as old as I am who saw Tommy Byrne play.....this discussion ends here.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[John1941]

Some I haven't seen mentioned yet:

Johnny Marcum, 1933-39, .265/5/70, 533 at-bats, 65-63 4.66 ERA
Chubby Dean, 1936-43, .274/3/128, 1047 at-bats 30-46 5.08 ERA
Fred Hutchinson, 1939-53, .263/4/83, 650 at-bats 95-71 3.73 ERA
Dizzy Trout, 1939-57, .213/20/110, 961 at-bats 170-161 3.23 ERA
Erv Brame, 1928-32, .306/8/75, 396 at-bats 52-37 4.76 ERA
Bucky Walters, 1931-50, .243/23/234,1966 at-bats 198-160 3.30 ERA

Chubby Dean played a few years as a first-baseman at the start of his MLB career, and Bucky Walters started out as a third-baseman in the majors. Walters hit .376 with 16 homers and 32 doubles in 362 at-bats for Mission in the Pacific Coast League in 1933.

Brandon Backe, 2003-09, .256/4/16, 133 at-bats, 31-29 5.23 ERA
Bullet Joe Bush, 1912-28, .253/7/140, 1239 at-bats 196-184 3.51 ERA
Yovani Gallardo, 2007-18, .201/12/42, 427 at-bats 121-101 4.06 ERA
Zack Greinke, 2004-23, .225/9/35, 521 at-bats 223-145 3.45 ERA
Mike Hampton, 1993-10, .246/16/79 725 at-bats 148-115 4.06 ERA
Jack Harshman, 1948-60, .179/21/65 424 at-bats 69-65 3.50 ERA

Jack Harshman, who is second only to Babe Ruth in home-run hitting prowess as a pitcher, was a first-baseman in the minor leagues, and hit 47 home runs with 141 RBI for Nashville in the Southern Association in 1951.

Don Larsen, 1953-67, .242/14/72, 596 at-bats 81-91 3.78 ERA
Jim Tobin, 1937-45, .230/17/102 796 at-bats 105-112 3.44 ERA
Jimmy Zinn, 1919-29 .283/2 /15 120 at-bats 13-16 4.30 ERA
Carlos Zambrano, 2001-12 .238/24/71 693 at-bats 132-91 3.66 ERA
Dave Ferris, 1945-50 .250/1 / 52 372 at-bats 65-30 3.64 ERA
Jack Scott, 1916-29 .275/5 /73 680 at-bats 103-109 3.85 ERA

I'm surprised no one mentioned Don Larsen yet.

Over Jimmy Zinn's minor league career, which lasted from 1915 to 1939 and was spent mostly in the high minors, he had a 295-197 record, and 747 hits in 2482 at-bats for a .301 batting average with 44 home runs.

An honorable mention is Frank Shellenback. He spent just two years in the majors, but won 315 games against just 189 losses in his minor league career, all spent in the high minors. He hit 73 home runs in his minor league career, including an incredible 55 over the seven-year period from 1927 to 1933.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Michael

Where you there to see (or hear) Tommy Byrne pitching and/or pinch-hitting) ?

I was an avid Baseball fan at a young age. If I wasn't watching BB on our TV, then I was listening to it on the radio. And, once in a while my folks would take us to Yankee Stadium.

Furthermore, my nearby neighbor in Hillside, NJ was Phil Rizzuto. Who would drive down our street to get to Yankee Stadium. Many times during that trip, Phil would stop and talk
with us kids.

For your information, the quote regarding Tommy Byrne' s pinch-hit grand slam HR was from SABR (not Wiki).

Tommy was one of my favorite Yankees. The memories of him have endured. Therefore, unless, you are as old as I am who saw Tommy Byrne play.....this discussion ends here.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

I never questioned that he hit a pinch-hit grand slam, nor your memories of him, nor whether he was a good hitting pitcher.

I questioned that he had 80 career pinch hits, which (I assume) came from Wiki. Maybe it is mentioned in other places, but that's where I saw the number.

Other sources say he had six. This seems to be the correct number, no matter how many games you saw or heard, or who your neighbor was.

I am unaware of the rule that someone can only discuss players they saw play. Considering that this is a vintage forum, there wouldn't be much for anyone to discuss!