"Bob" vs "Roberto" Clemente

[JollyElm]

I know plenty of Roberts, and it doesn't matter what they prefer to be called, everyone will immediately default to the name Bob. Just like Michael. I have a few in my extended family, and if they want to be called "Michael," it doesn't matter. Within 5 minutes of meeting them, people are immediately referring to them as Mike. It's human nature, not frickin' racism.

Let's look at the 1972 Topps set, because I have it on hand. There isn't a single card with Robert as a first name. Not one. Even a bunch of Roberto Clemente's teammates were named Robert, but all of their cards show a form of Bob. Was Topps guilty of racism in regards to all of these players, even the white people???? Isn't it reasonable to assume that some of these players preferred to be called Robert, and not Bob or a derivative of it???

(Didn't research all the birth names of these players, but logic dictates that almost all of them had/have the birth name of Robert.)
Bob Tolan
Bobby Valentine
Rob Gardner
Bob Johnson
Bob Gebhard
Bob Barton
Bob Barton IA
Bob Oliver
Bobby Murcer LL
Bob Gibson
Bob Reynolds
Bob O’Brien
Bobby Bolin
Bobby Floyd
Bob Grich
Bob Watson
Bobby Heise
Bob Montgomery
Bob Miller
Bob Robertson
Bob Robertson IA
Bob Lemon
Bob Bailey BP
Bob Bailey
Bob Locker
Bob Moose
Bobby Wine
Bob Aspromonte
Bobby Knoop
Bob Fenwick
Bob Stinson
Bobby Pfeil
Bobby Murcer
Bobby Murcer IA
Bobby Bonds
Bobby Bonds IA
Bob Veale
Bob Burda

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I know plenty of Roberts, and it doesn't matter what they preferred to be called, everyone will immediately default to the name Bob. Just like Michael. I have a few in my extended family, and if they want to be called "Michael," it doesn't matter. Within 5 minutes of meeting them, people are immediately referring to them as Mike. It's human nature, not frickin' racism.

Let's look at the 1972 Topps set, because I have it on hand. There isn't a single card with Robert as a first name. Not one. Even a bunch of Roberto Clemente's teammates were named Robert, but all of their cards show a form of Bob. Was Topps guilty of racism in regards to all of these players, even the white people???? Isn't it reasonable to assume that some of these players preferred to be called Robert, and not Bob or a derivative of it???

(Didn't research all the birth names of these players, but logic dictates that almost all of them had/have the birth name of Robert.)
Bob Tolan
Bobby Valentine
Rob Gardner
Bob Johnson
Bob Gebhard
Bob Barton
Bob Barton IA
Bob Oliver
Bobby Murcer LL
Bob Gibson
Bob Reynolds
Bob O’Brien
Bobby Bolin
Bobby Floyd
Bob Grich
Bob Watson
Bobby Heise
Bob Montgomery
Bob Miller
Bob Robertson
Bob Robertson IA
Bob Lemon
Bob Baily BP
Bob Bailey
Bob Locker
Bob Moose
Bobby Wine
Bob Aspromonte
Bobby Knoop
Bob Fenwick
Bob Stinson
Bobby Pfeil
Bobby Murcer
Bobby Murcer IA
Bobby Bonds
Bobby Bonds IA
Bob Veale
Bob Burda

If all the Roberts are Bob or Bobby, I would suggest "Bobo" or "Bobbyo".

You can call me Franco, just don't call me Julio (It's not my name).

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I know plenty of Roberts, and it doesn't matter what they prefer to be called, everyone will immediately default to the name Bob. Just like Michael. I have a few in my extended family, and if they want to be called "Michael," it doesn't matter. Within 5 minutes of meeting them, people are immediately referring to them as Mike. It's human nature, not frickin' racism.

Let's look at the 1972 Topps set, because I have it on hand. There isn't a single card with Robert as a first name. Not one. Even a bunch of Roberto Clemente's teammates were named Robert, but all of their cards show a form of Bob. Was Topps guilty of racism in regards to all of these players, even the white people???? Isn't it reasonable to assume that some of these players preferred to be called Robert, and not Bob or a derivative of it???

(Didn't research all the birth names of these players, but logic dictates that almost all of them had/have the birth name of Robert.)
Bob Tolan
Bobby Valentine
Rob Gardner
Bob Johnson
Bob Gebhard
Bob Barton
Bob Barton IA
Bob Oliver
Bobby Murcer LL
Bob Gibson
Bob Reynolds
Bob O’Brien
Bobby Bolin
Bobby Floyd
Bob Grich
Bob Watson
Bobby Heise
Bob Montgomery
Bob Miller
Bob Robertson
Bob Robertson IA
Bob Lemon
Bob Bailey BP
Bob Bailey
Bob Locker
Bob Moose
Bobby Wine
Bob Aspromonte
Bobby Knoop
Bob Fenwick
Bob Stinson
Bobby Pfeil
Bobby Murcer
Bobby Murcer IA
Bobby Bonds
Bobby Bonds IA
Bob Veale
Bob Burda

I'm pretty sure every one of the 'Bobs'/Roberts you listed were born in the United States.

Roberto Clemente was born in a totally different culture.

Surely, you are not trying to compare Roberto being called Bobby to Robert Lemon or Robert Bonds being called Bob or Bobby.

When Senior Clemente played, it WAS INDEED a form of racism.


.

[JollyElm]

That's simply your opinion. If Topps was calling every single Robert a form of "Bob" on their cards, why wouldn't they do the same thing with Roberto Clemente? Especially since there weren't many (if any?) Robertos around the league. Tony Oliva's real name is Antonio, I believe. Is it racist that Topps called him Tony? Or is it just simply the way things are?? Anthony or Antonio becomes Tony in baseball shorthand. Roberto becomes Bob. Nothing nefarious, methinks.

[nolemmings]

Tony Oliva's real name is Antonio, I believe

You believe incorrectly.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

You believe incorrectly.

Technically, Darren is correct. Oliva was born Antonio Oliva Lopez Hernandez Javique. When he arrived in the USA in 1961 he used the paperwork of his younger brother Pedro, Jr to make it appear that he was eighteen rather than his true age of twenty one. The name stuck throughout his career and he had it legally changed to Tony Pedro Oliva in the 1990's.

[brian1961]

Doesn't, or in this case, didn't, Topps have a questionaire for each player to fill out that would provide the company with their correct information? Meaning, if Roberto filled one out for 1955, he naturally would have written, "Roberto", and Topps dutifully copied that.

Now, if you're really upset about your Clemente cards that have "Bob" instead of the proper "Roberto", look, I'll help ya out. Just send all those cards to me and I promise I will enjoy and respect them, as is. When I refer to them in front of my collecting chums, I will endeavor to address them as my neat Roberto Clementes that collectors gave to me 'cause they couldn't stand 'em anymore!!!

----Brian Powell

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Technically, Darren is correct. Oliva was born Antonio Oliva Lopez Hernandez Javique. When he arrived in the USA in 1961 he used the paperwork of his younger brother Pedro, Jr to make it appear that he was eighteen rather than his true age of twenty one. The name stuck throughout his career and he had it legally changed to Tony Pedro Oliva in the 1990's.

You might want to tell that to SABR biographer Peter Bjarkman, who has it just the opposite:

"As Oliva himself recounts the events, his February signing allowed only a few short weeks before a scheduled departure for spring training in the United States. The cramped time frame created a significant problem because he lacked a passport. But since his brother Antonio (older by Oliva’s telling) did possess proper documentation, a switch was hurriedly arranged and the hopeful ballplayer was cleared to leave his homeland with obviously illegitimate paperwork. The Twins’ timely offer and the availability of his brother’s passport papers enabled an escape from Cuba in the immediate aftermath of the 1959 Castro-led revolution and thus at the precise time of worsening Cuba-USA relations. One fateful consequence for the future was that the youngster would become known by a brother’s name and not his own, a fate he could never shake despite later legally changing his name in U.S. courts to Pedro Oliva Jr. (actually his rightful given name in Cuba). An equally devastating consequence was the fact that worsening relations between Washington and the newly installed Castro regime would soon block any possibilities of returning to his beloved homeland and his family homestead for decades into the future.

There has been considerable controversy surrounding Oliva’s actual birth date, with 1938, 1940 and 1941 all appearing as alternative choices in standard baseball reference works and various on-line sources. 7 The ballplayer’s own account in his autobiography attests that he was the second son, born in 1941 and preceded by older sibling Antonio.."

[Cliff Bowman]

After reading the SABR article, I agree that it's very plausible that his birth name is Pedro, Jr., and that he used his brother Antonio's birth certificate so that he could obtain a passport to gain entrance into the US. That would mean that his Wikipedia page and the Baseball Almanac are both wrong.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

That's simply your opinion. If Topps was calling every single Robert a form of "Bob" on their cards, why wouldn't they do the same thing with Roberto Clemente? Especially since there weren't many (if any?) Robertos around the league. Tony Oliva's real name is Antonio, I believe. Is it racist that Topps called him Tony? Or is it just simply the way things are?? Anthony or Antonio becomes Tony in baseball shorthand. Roberto becomes Bob. Nothing nefarious, methinks.

Show me your Topps cards of John Marichal, Roland Cepeda, Rich Carty, Lou Aparicio or Tiant, Joe Pagan or Cardinal, etc. Topps made an error on his card in 1957 and it took until 1970 to correct it despite Clemente publicly stating his name is Roberto not Bob. They were also incorrect everytime they listed his name as Roberto Walker Clemente, the same as the Hall of Fame. His name is Roberto Enrique Clemente Walker. Over time people learn and correct their mistakes.

I don't know that anyone has said Topps was racist, there is no evidence of it or it not just being a mistake. However, there definitely were people who were racists that used Bob to try to get under Clemente's skin. Just like articles that were clearly racist making fun of his accent. Or people who wouldn't let him eat with his teammates, stay in the same hotel, etc. We shouldn't try to rewrite history to cover up our mistakes.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I just saw an old interview with Willie Stargell on MLB. When asked about Clemente he twice referred to him as "Bobby."

I don't think Stargell would have used that name if Clemente did not approve while teammates.

[nolemmings]

Just re-watched a little bit of Game 7 from the 1960 World Series on youtube-- I can only stand a little at a time given that the wrong team won. Anyway, I noted that the announcer called him Roberto when he came to the plate.

I grew up in an American League area during that time, and only saw the NL occasionally on TV. Like every other kid playing in the sandlots, backyards and parks, though, we all tried to emulate our favorite players and debated who was best. Not once in those instances did any of us refer to "Bob" Clemente. Small and maybe irrelevant sample, I know, but just sayin. Don't know where we were getting our information, but it was always Roberto. Oh, and we all collected baseball cards too.

Like the inimitable Mr. Spaeth observed, it is strange Topps got it right for the first two years and then changed the name. I could see it if the player requested or maybe if it just became common knowledge that's how he was called (e.g. John then "Boog" Powell), but that's not what happened here, and there is some evidence the player did not like the name Topps assigned to him. One wonders why the company changed it back to Roberto so many years later as well.

The OP made the observation that seemingly every other card manufacturer during the time got it right (although Transogram had one of each). Fair question as to why Topps went the other way, and IMO the other posters' takes on possible reasons seem legitimate.

[MikeGarcia]

...Doctor Beckett got it correct...

..