Great thread, what about most under rated pre-war player?

[CMIZ5290]

Who should be in the hall but is not? Aside from shoeless jj

[rhettyeakley]

Hard to be more underrated (especially when it comes to his card prices) than Eddie Collins. He was one of the best but is just a "common" HOFer when you go sell his stuff.

I've always felt Lefty Grove is a bit underrated (as are most good 1930's pitchers--as it was a hitters era). Given the time he played and the #'s he put up (along with the Baltimore numbers from 1921 on as he was not "for sale" by Balto. to any of the Major League teams that were knocking down the door to get him) he is in my top5-6 greatest pitchers of all time.

As for those not in the Hall that should be I would recommend Browing, Stovey, Mullane, Deacon White and a few other 19th Century guys (especially those that played mostly in the Amer. Assoc. as they got/get NO LOVE from the powers that be.)
-Rhett

[novakjr]

I wouldn't necessarily call them Hall-Worthy, but Fred Merkle and Wally Pipp were pretty damn good. It's a shame that both of them are primarily remembered for one hitch in their careers. Merkle's boner and Pipp's headache.

Merkle had a pretty respectable 16 year career.
Pipp had a VERY respectable 15 year career. He even led the league in homers twice and triples once.

[Mark]

There's always George Sisler.

[novakjr]

George H. Burns had a pretty good 16 year career. .307 career BA, 1926 A.L. MVP, 2x WS Champion, led the league in hits twice, doubles once, and HBP three times.

[Doug]

I have a Cincinnati bias, but I think Tony Mullane should be in the HOF if Rube Marquard is...

[CMIZ5290]

What about ed reulbach? 2 shutouts in one day? No other major leaguer to my knowldedge ever did that. Also had great lifetime stats.

[Robextend]

Not HOF worthy, but I think Mike Donlin is pretty underrated.

Also I am not sure why Jimmy Ryan is not in the HOF.

2500 Hits, 1600+ Runs 400+ SB plus other great numbers.

[CMIZ5290]

Rob- totally agree with mike donlin. He was a superstar and many experts thought, one of the best ever.

[wolfdogg]

Originally Posted by Robextend

Not HOF worthy, but I think Mike Donlin is pretty underrated.

Also I am not sure why Jimmy Ryan is not in the HOF.

2500 Hits, 1600+ Runs 400+ SB plus other great numbers.

I agree with you on the Ryan......why is he not in?

[wolfdogg]

I still have to mention William "Dummy" Hoy for what he did for MLB and his stats aren't too awful either

[TexasLeaguer]

Deacon Phillippe and Wes Ferrell are a couple of my favorites. Also, Tris Speaker is often overlooked, considering how good he was. Your average Joe doesn't know who Tris Speaker is.

[SteveMitchell]

There ought to be adjustments made for players who made sacrifices to serve the nation in the military - especially in time of war. The late Cecil Travis is one who surely would be a Hall of Famer had not WWII intervened and shortened his career due to injuries he received.

(I'd also like to see those years of military service noted in official baseball records - like they used to be on the backs of 1950's and early 60s baseball cards.)

A few others who might be considered under-rated are: Wes Ferrell, Stuffy McInnis, and Robert T. Mathews - representing three different eras.

[Big Six]

I'd throw Lefty O'doul's name in to the mix...seemed to have his hand in just about every level of of baseball...minors (PCL), majors and his role as an ambassador bringing the game to Japan (in the Japanese HOF I believe!).

Oh, and he could hit...

[ethicsprof]

i make a pitch every couple of years on the board for ole gavvy or cactus cravath.
for his era, a homerun champion again and again and again

best,
barry

[D. Bergin]

"Indian" Bob Johnson had some pretty impressive stats for a guy whose cards are pretty much considered commons.

His career 162 game a season averages:


108 Runs 178 Hits 34 Doubles 8 Triples 25 HR's 112 RBI's 93 Walks 74 SO's .296 Avg. .393 OBP .506 Slugging .899 OPS


I guess he never had Frankie Frisch pushing for his induction.

[packs]

I think Larry Doyle is criminally under-rated and largely forgotten by most people. He was the best offensive second baseman of the National League during his career. When Doyle retired he was the National League career leader for all second basemen in slugging, hits, doubles, triples, total bases and extra base hits. In 1915 he was also the first second baseman to win the National League batting title since 1876. I don't understand how he wasn't elected to the HOF by his peers.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

We seem to do a similar thread every six months or so.

There are so many calls for Deacon White. I am starting to understand why, but see him as more of a "right place at the right time" type of pioneer in the way that his career unfolded. How much of what he accomplished was due to happenstance in a game that was then in its adolescence? I've always thought his brother Will to be deserving of enshrinement.

How Hank O'Day has been overlooked as an umpire is beyond me. He wasn't a very socially approachable man; I think this is the only reason he wasn't an early inductee. At the very least, he should have been inducted the same year as Klem.

[Wite3]

Sherry Magee! Gavvy Cravath, Mike Donlin, Ed Ruelbach.

[tbob]

Underrated pre-war playes? Deacon Phillippe, Ed Reulbach, Buck Weaver and most importantly Turkey Mike Donlin. Donlin had a very checkered career but as far as talent and production he posted star numbers.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by packs

I think Larry Doyle is criminally under-rated and largely forgotten by most people. He was the best offensive second baseman of the National League during his career. When Doyle retired he was the National League career leader for all second basemen in slugging, hits, doubles, triples, total bases and extra base hits. In 1915 he was also the first second baseman to win the National League batting title since 1876. I don't understand how he wasn't elected to the HOF by his peers.

I agree 100%. Captain of the Giants and their key hitter during their glory years, and yet he is neglected by Hall voters.

[oldjudge]

Pete Browning, Dave Orr, Harry Stovey and Deacon White

[HoofHearted]

I'm in the process of learning more about the Washington Senators players by putting together a type collection of Senators/Twins from 1901 to 1991. So far I've been most impressed with Cecil Travis (see his career stats at http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ravice01.shtml). He was just hitting his stride when he answered the call to duty in '42...

[Oops! I didn't read the whole thread. I see Kenny C. had already mentioned Cecil T. Good choice!!]

[bbcarddan]

How about Gil Hodges can`t get much closer to the hall and still be on the outside lookin in than him.

My opinion ALL those ballplayers who lost playing time to serve our country during wartime are HOFers!

[Peter_Spaeth]

The other interesting part of the Travis story is that he not only missed several years because of WW II but he really was never the same afterwards because he suffered frostbite and had part of his foot amputated. So he was out of baseball by age 33. Still, in my book, Addie Joss to the contrary nothwithstanding, you don't make the Hall of Fame based on what might have been. And the voters agree -- I don't think he has ever garnered any significant votes. But maybe the Hall should open a what might have been wing.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ravice01.shtml

To answer your question Kenny, he might have been injured, his stats might have taken a nosedive for whatever reason (I bet we could come up with a number of examples of guys whose careers nosedived, off the top of my head Doc Gooden comes to mind who surely projected to a first round HOFer after 7 years; Jose Canseco might fit that bill; etc.). We just don't know. I wouldn't want to base HOF membership on projected performance.

[Kenny Cole]

Peter,

Unlike Travis, Doc Gooden's problems were largely self-inflicted so he doesn't really fit the bill. Conseco, were it not for the steroid issue (again self-inflicted) has a halfway decent case for the hall.

Surely you can come up with better examples than that when explaining why someone who showed absolutely no signs of slowing down -- someone who led the league in hits and hit .359 (second in the league) the year before he entered the service -- someone who had finished in the top ten in average 4 out of the 5 years immediately preceding his induction into the service -- would nonetheless, for some inexplicable reason that you cannot articulate,
have fallen flat on his face during the prime years of his career had he not gone off to fight for his country.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I suggest that my hypothesis -- which is that he would have continued to play at a consistently high level during the four years that he missed -- is more supportable than your theory that something "might" have happened to cause that not to occurr.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You are misstating the issue. Of course it's more likely that he would have continued. But as long as there is a doubt, I can't give him the benefit of that doubt. And there is a doubt, because it does happen that players go south. I will try to think of more examples. Perhaps you can explain why he never received a vote?