JOE DOYLE variations(T206)

[stina]

does anyone know why psa does not recognize all variations of the joe doyle t206 card, and does anyone else have a partial "Y" missing dot variaton like me. i have only heard of two others that exsit, but have not been verified. psa did not recognize my variation but did rate it at "PSA 4". it seems that they did not increase or diminish the valueation due to the partial "Y" misssing dot.!

[T206.org]

As far as I know, PSA (and SGC?) only recognizes T206 "errors" that are in the Standard Catalog, and based on the 2012 catalog release, that didn't include any of Bob Lemke's T206 updates, it's going to be a while, if ever, before any new entries are made.

[egbeachley]

If you start to include every difference resulting from the degradation of the printing plates, missing colors, lighter colors, etc., then you could almost call every card a variation.

In my opinion, a variation needs to be where the plates were specifically and/or deliberately changed by someone.

[JeremyW]

If you do a forum search for "survey doyle variation" you'll find a very interesting and informative thread started by Ted Z. regarding the various Doyle variations & printing marks.

[bbsports]

I have the Doyle variation with the extra dot after the N.Y. in a PSA 4.5 & PSA only looks at it as just a common Joe Doyle.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

In my opinion, a variation needs to be where the plates were specifically and/or deliberately changed by someone.

I agree with Eric 100% on the above statement. The "N.Y. Nat'l" and "N.Y." examples are variations. Everything else that I have seen proposed as a new variation is a print anomaly.

Also the scarcity of Doyle N.Y. front/back combos has been greatly exaggerated in previous threads.

[stina]

Quote:
Originally Posted by egbeachley
In my opinion, a variation needs to be where the plates were specifically and/or deliberately changed by someone.

the plates were specifically and/or deliberately changed. the "N.Y.." (double dot) was created when they tried to file of the "NAT'l" from the plate. the second dot was created when the bottom portion of the "N" was not fully filed. the "partial Y missing dot" was created when they specifically and/or deliberately tried filing off the extra dot from previous attempts to file the "NAT'L". finally they specifically and/or deliberately got it right and made the "N.Y."

[tedzan]

The Joe Doyle card is tougher to find than most T206 commons simply because many of the cards were acquired by scammers
back in the mid-1980's in an attempt to modify this card by adding the "Nat'l" lettering to its caption, in order to replicate the
very scarce Joe Doyle error card. Some very professionally altered cards were good enough, in that they fooled the Grader's.
One such graded fake example still exists in circulation with a POLAR BEAR back. To date, only 8 - legitimate Doyle error cards
have been found. The printers caught this error very quickly; therefore, the Joe Doyle error card will be found ONLY with the
PIEDMONT 350 back.






The following is a survey excerpted from a prior thread (Sept 2007) regarding the "printer's mark" found on some Joe Doyle cards.
Thread......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...slow+joe+doyle

Also, included here is the current SGC pop report of the T206 Joe Doyle card.


Posted by........Ted Zanidakis 9/26/2007


v.....UPDATED SURVEY......9/25/2007.....v

T-brand.................Mark.......No-Mark...........Current SGC Joe Doyle pop report


Piedmont 350............. 7 .......... 29 ...................................... 32

Sweet Cap 350 f30...... 4 .......... 37 ...................................... 52

Polar Bear.................. 2 .......... 17 ...................................... 10

Old Mill...................... 1 ........... 5 ........................................ 4

Tolstoi....................... 0 .......... 1 ......................................... 2

Sovereign 350............. 0 .......... 2 ......................................... 5

EPDG......................... 0 .......... 1 ......................................... 2
________________________________

Totals...................... 14 ......... 94




TED Z

[cfc1909]

This is not totally accurate


[QUOTE=tedzan;933167]The Joe Doyle card is tougher to find than most T206 commons simply because many of the cards were acquired by scammers
back in the mid-1980's in an attempt to modify this card by adding the "Nat'l" lettering to its caption, in order to replicate the
very scarce Joe Doyle error card. [QUOTE=tedzan;933167]




The reason the Doyle card is tougher to acquire is because the card was only printed with 8 backs and other cards from the same series can be found with approximately 20 backs.

Backs the Doyle can be found with

EPDG
Old Mill BBS
Piedmont
Polar Bear
Sovereign apple green
Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25
Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30
Tolstoi

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by stina

Quote:
Originally Posted by egbeachley
In my opinion, a variation needs to be where the plates were specifically and/or deliberately changed by someone.

the plates were specifically and/or deliberately changed. the "N.Y.." (double dot) was created when they tried to file of the "NAT'l" from the plate. the second dot was created when the bottom portion of the "N" was not fully filed. the "partial Y missing dot" was created when they specifically and/or deliberately tried filing off the extra dot from previous attempts to file the "NAT'L". finally they specifically and/or deliberately got it right and made the "N.Y."

That's a very interesting take, one worth considering. In the field of coin collecting, early American coins exhibit flaws that were caused by the dies as they were compromised from continued use. As the die cracks got larger, the corresponding flaws on the coins got larger too. And collectors do go after these various die states.

So you could make the argument that the different states of the Doyle card could be collected too. Of course, some documentation would be useful here, such as good images of the card in its various states. Would collectors be interested in acquiring an example of each of these Doyles? Only time will tell. But I found the idea provocative.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

The reason the Doyle card is tougher to acquire is because the card was only printed with 8 backs and other cards from the same series can be found with approximately 20 backs.

Hey Jim

The 63 subjects in the 350/460 series are indeed found with 20 (or more) different T206 tobacco backs (since these 63 cards were printed with certain 350 backs and
certain 460 backs).

But, the Joe Doyle (and Simon Nicholls and Bob Rhoades), who were intended to be in the 350/460 series have no 460 series backs. Most likely because these 3 subjects
had retired from the Major Leagues during or prior to the start of the press runs of the 460 series cards.

Now, since there are approx. 13 different 460 series tobacco advertising backs, it is obvious that the Joe Doyle card was printed far short of 20 backs.

The Joe Doyle is effectively a "350-Only" series card. The 350-Only series card's average number of tobacco backs is 9 different. Furthermore, surveys have shown that
most T206's in the 350-Only series are very plentiful.....EXCEPT.....for the Joe Doyle card.


So, do you question that many of the Joe Doyle cards that Larry Fritsch hoarded in the early 1980's; and subsequently, the Joe Doyle cards that the scammers had were
were lost to the hobby ? ?


TED Z

[peterb69]

Hi Ted,

I know I can find this answer if I search this forum, but I thought it might as well be put here incase new readers are unaware of the "Doyle Hoard".

I believe I read that Larry Fritsch realized that there was the Natl version out there, so he offered to buy any Doyle card sight unseen hoping to get a few Natl versions sent in. But what I forget is what happened to his hoarded collection of Doyles?

Perhaps you could fill in details to make this thread more complete.

Thanks & good job documanting the T206's.

[steve B]

The correction would have been done with a limestone pencil made for correcting lithographic plates. I believe the double dot is from one particular position on the plate. Since the correction would have been done manually it has the potential to be different for each position.

The percentage of ones with the mark to ones without is important because it gives us an idea the plate layout. 1 in 12 matches pretty well with the theory of there being some relation between plate subjects and the number 6. Possibly 12 Doyles on each plate, along with others, or more likely 6 Doyles on each of 2 plates, one corrected the other needing no corrections.

Just like coins, Stamps have a similar thing, the collecting of stamps from each plate used, or stamps from particular positions with known flaws. Some are cataloged and widely sought, others aren't.

Steve B

Originally Posted by barrysloate

That's a very interesting take, one worth considering. In the field of coin collecting, early American coins exhibit flaws that were caused by the dies as they were compromised from continued use. As the die cracks got larger, the corresponding flaws on the coins got larger too. And collectors do go after these various die states.

So you could make the argument that the different states of the Doyle card could be collected too. Of course, some documentation would be useful here, such as good images of the card in its various states. Would collectors be interested in acquiring an example of each of these Doyles? Only time will tell. But I found the idea provocative.

[barrysloate]

Thanks Steve, and I do remember that about stamp collecting. It is possible to determine the position of a stamp on a sheet based on some minute difference.

[dstudeba]

Peter -

My guess is that many of those Doyles are still sitting in a warehouse up north. I believe that Fritsch's offer has a much greater effect on reducing the population of Doyles than any scammer efforts, however I would defer to the knowledge of a true T206 expert such as Jim R.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Thanks Steve, and I do remember that about stamp collecting.

So do I, which is why I hated stamp and coin collecting...

IMO a printing flaw is one thing and a variation is something else. Both are collectable; the question is how to describe and catalog them. I would catalog the variations but not the printing flaws.

[cfc1909]

The 350 only cards were printed with 13 backs. The 350-460 run has 23 different backs.


Larry found the first Doyle Nat'l and put ads in the hobby mags for ALL Doyles. I am sure there is a hoard still in that collection.

The Doyle is printed with 8 backs so its initial printing was less than other common cards printed 350-460 run. This is the reason for Doyle showing up in less quantities. Dan is correct in his guess that Larry buying them up trying to find another Doyle Nat'l had a greater effect on reducing the current population than any scammer efforts.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by peterb69

Hi Ted,

I know I can find this answer if I search this forum, but I thought it might as well be put here incase new readers are unaware of the "Doyle Hoard".

I believe I read that Larry Fritsch realized that there was the Natl version out there, so he offered to buy any Doyle card sight unseen hoping to get a few Natl versions sent in. But what I forget is what happened to his hoarded collection of Doyles?

Perhaps you could fill in details to make this thread more complete.

Thanks & good job documanting the T206's.

In the early 1980's, Larry Fritsch realized that he had a Joe Doyle variation with the lettering "Nat'l" in this card's caption. He kept this to himself, and advertised in SCD
that he was buying T206 Doyle cards. He acquired many of them (Joe and Larry Doyle cards). However, none of the Joe Doyle's that he acquired had the "Nat'l" printing
on it. Circa 1986-1987, Bill Huggins finds a Joe Doyle with "Nat'l" printed on it. Fritsch buys this 2nd Joe Doyle variation from Huggins. Subsequently, its my understanding that Fritsch discreetly sold the T206 Doyle cards to select collectors in the hobby. Since, by the late 1980's, FAKE Joe Doyle "Nat'l" cards had surfaced at BB card shows.

An interesting follow-up to this story is that the 1910-11 childhood Tobacco card collection of Senator Richard Russell (which has been on display at the Univ. of Georgia
since the early 1980's) includes a Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'l card and a Ty Cobb with a Ty Cobb back.

Consider this, if Fritsch had known of this collection back in the early 1980's, would he have stll acquired all those Doyle cards ?


TED Z

[peterb69]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Consider this, if Fritsch had known of this collection back in the early 1980's, would he have still acquired all those Doyle cards ?

I assume he still would have. He was looking for the next Sherry Magie.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Are there really three threads about this going on at the same time here?

[barrysloate]

Stina, who is new to the board, started one and revived two others. It just makes the discussion more confusing.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Stina, who is new to the board, started one and revived two others. It just makes the discussion more confusing.

Not anymore.

Stina- before you bring up anymore old threads please email for permission first. In general, unless there is good reason, we prefer to start new threads. Old threads can certainly be responded to but there is already a new thread going pertaining to your situations. That is the thread you should respond in. PM me if you have any questions and I will help you understand more. Nothing personal but, as Barry said, it makes it confusing when there are multiple threads being responded to pertaining to the same subject matter. Thanks

ps....Stina- I should add that if you would have only brought up one, old pertinent thread, not two, and not started a new one on the same subject, then one old thread would have probably been ok. Three threads at the same time, not so much. Hope you understand. I sounded a bit harsh in my first statement, no harm intended and my apologies for that.

[stina]

Originally Posted by Leon

Not anymore.

Stina- before you bring up anymore old threads please email for permission first. In general, unless there is good reason, we prefer to start new threads. Old threads can certainly be responded to but there is already a new thread going pertaining to your situations. That is the thread you should respond in. PM me if you have any questions and I will help you understand more. Nothing personal but, as Barry said, it makes it confusing when there are multiple threads being responded to pertaining to the same subject matter. Thanks

ps....Stina- I should add that if you would have only brought up one, old pertinent thread, not two, and not started a new one on the same subject, then one old thread would have probably been ok. Three threads at the same time, not so much. Hope you understand. I sounded a bit harsh in my first statement, no harm intended and my apologies for that.

email permision for what? i replyed to someone else's thread, as you did mine. who says that person is reading my thread. i want to make sure he gets his answers. some one mentoned that thread and i answered them.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by stina

email permision for what? i replyed to someone else's thread, as you did mine. who says that person is reading my thread. i want to make sure he gets his answers. some one mentoned that thread and i answered them.

You responded to a thread that was over 1 yr old and another one that was over 2 1/2 yrs old. You also started this thread on the same subject. Do you really think it's necessary to have 3 current threads going, all about the exact same subject? Had you only responded to one of those threads and then not started this one then most likely nothing would have been said. thanks

[Abravefan11]

The hoards and scams make a great story but they do little to change the real numbers. The Doyle supposed scarcity is elementary to anyone that really pays attention to the subject for an extended period of time.

[stina]

Originally Posted by Leon

You responded to a thread that was over 1 yr old and another one that was over 2 1/2 yrs old. You also started this thread on the same subject. Do you really think it's necessary to have 3 current threads going, all about the exact same subject? Had you only responded to one of those threads and then not started this one then most likely nothing would have been said. thanks

the subjects of the other threads were of the "double dot", and besides they were doing surveys to find out how many cards they could see are out there. i am not doing a survey. i was glad to help get thier numbers they are looking for. over time more and more people should reply to thier thread to help them get thier numbers as people relize what they have or found. you do not have to reply to my thread if you wish not to. in the mean time i would like as many people give me info or at least gossip about the doyle variations.

[stina]

does anyone else own a joe doyle t206 partial "Y" variation and is it graded?

[vthobby]

Wrong place though! Looks like a remnant of a printers line on bottom right!

Oh well!

Peace, Mike

IMG_0415.jpg

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[Tao_Moko]

I have 40 Ganley's all with some form of variation(back run, missing color, name at top and bottom, no name, color shifts, color variations, wet sheet transfer, bleed on back ad, miscut, stray print mark's and even handcut and rubber stamped). I'm missing a ghost image and name at top only. I have some that regardless of back scarcity are probably one of ones. Their only value is in the collective gathering of then all. Regarding Doyle - it is infamous so I imagine repeated variations could be cataloged if more than one consistent example could be documented. The minutia of t206 collecting variables could easily drive demand and price if they are not truly unique. Would be interesting to start/revive a thread where we all post our Doyle's and include images of known copies from previous sales. If I had one with an anomaly you can bet I'd be garnering interest.