Bad News...

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Posted By: Luc Mitchell

I've emailed Greg Kohn (Upper Deck guy who was on the Beckett Message Boards) a couple time since he left said boards, for the most part talking about upcoming products. While they've been benign, I just heard this---UD is in the process of getting a PSA 2 T206 Wagner for an upcoming product to cut up as "memorabilia". So few are known, and one is headed to the chopping block...

The design is fairly similar to the Topps T206 release, so this is probably trying (like Goudey) to cut into Topps' Heritage/A&G/Turkey red niche. From what I understand, however, a product won't be designed around it but it incorporated into another, such as Legendary Cuts.


Concept card:




The only good news is that the deal for a card is not finalized yet (I have no idea where they are at---the above is a design, not a scan). Even that, however, isn't great---there's at least one (http://psacard.com/set%5Fregistry/display_cards.chtml?rsetid=72349&alltime=yes&requesttimeout=9999&rank=none&tied=0) potentially for sale.

This sucks big time.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

This has got to be a joke...

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Posted By: George Dreher

That's almost sacrilege. Next they'll cut up the Shroud of Turin and put it on cards.

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Posted By: John S

What's next? The Declaration of Independence? A Monet? I hope that it does not happen.

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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

Might this have something to do with the date of your post?

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

I didn't want to say anything, but I suspect the same thing.

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Posted By: Rick

What Luc says is the truth. Upper Deck has also received permission from Wagner's family to exhume the body, cut the body into hundreds of small pieces which will be encased in thin plastic, and the plastic pieces will be inserted into Upper Deck baseball cards. I can't wait to start opening packs.

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Posted By: Dave

No offense to any Upper Deck employees or lovers on this board, but they kind of were responsible for ruining the card collecting hobby as a whole. they started the whole insert card craze in the early 90's that turned a fun "hobby" into an investor driven nightmare.

If it weren't for Yughi-oh Upper Deck would have gone out of business a few years ago. The local card shop owners barely stays in business by stocking Upper Deck, Topps, and other new product.






or is this just A Cruel April Fool's hoax to play on Collectors...LOL

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Posted By: Luc Mitchell

What Luc says is the truth. Upper Deck has also received permission from Wagner's family to exhume the body, cut the body into hundreds of small pieces which will be encased in thin plastic, and the plastic pieces will be inserted into Upper Deck baseball cards. I can't wait to start opening packs.


Greg told me that as well, but it's for a 2008 product.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The funniest part of this thread is the portion of the card Luc put in on his prototype. I think if I had that UD card with the "Wagner" part attached, I'd have a heart attack every time I looked at it.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

I hate to say it but it had to happen. Ever since the T-206 Gretzky Wagner sold for 2.35 million, I knew it would happen. Face it, UD is doing what any corp. would do.

They are trying to expand the market. They figure cutting up a Wagner will increase the market buzz and bring in new collectors.

Peter

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Posted By: JK

Nice April Fools Joke.

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

Actually, I heard that they were acquiring a 1930 Goudy Ruth calendar card and Cutting it up in place of the Wagner:-)

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Posted By: RC

I am definitely interested if the '30 Goudey Ruth Calendar is included, as long as it is verified, authorized, canonized, euthanized, etc.... by a verifiable, reputable, authenticated, etc.... dealer/auctioneer!!

It would make a great birthday present for me today, yes April Fools Day! My 50th!!

RC

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Posted By: Darren

Among the more aggressive projects they have is there cloning of great players of the past via exumed tissue's DNA. They will make available autographs, new photos with historical poses, and current vs legendary All-Star games. The first attempt of course was Ruth, but each and every time the embryo developed into a gorilla.

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

The Ruth clone took too much beer to live off of and kept hitting on the female employees at the lab. The company ended the project due to too many sexual harrassment law suites

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Posted By: Darren

Then came Cobb and they found he could not survive in today's equal oppurtunity environment.

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Posted By: Jim Dale

While I believe this is a joke; its sad that things like that do happen. It was not that long ago another card company destroyed a one and only jersey for that very purpose. Fortunately they got what they deserved - put out of business.

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Posted By: Luc Mitchell

What jersey are you talking about, Thorpe?

Also, Donruss is not out of business, just (temporarily?) out of baseball... As they used up most of their game used material in their last baseball products, if they come back they will almost certainly buy a lot more.

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Posted By: Jim Dale

http://www.beckett.com/news/index2.asp?a=4371&s=1

They paid $264k for it at auction and cut it up for pack insertion - no joke.

They should be out of business; that decision made is I'll never buy a new product from them - ever - again.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

<What's next?>
Cut up pieces of the Titanic.


I think it's a great idea. It's not like there is only few known. This will give many a chance to own it..if only a small piece. Just my thought.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, that article sickens me. Here's the question: who in the hell would want a baseball card with an itsy bitsy piece of Ruth's jersey anyway?

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Posted By: dennis

Q.who in the hell would want a baseball card with an itsy bitsy piece of Ruth's jersey anyway?
A.someone with an itsy bitsy brain

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

These companies cutting up baseball artifacts should instead keep the bat/jersey intact and insert cards for a drawing...the winner gets the bat/jersey. Who would ever believe that little tiny piece of cloth came from the Ruth jersey anyway?? Didn't Topps or Upperdeck supposedly have an autograph card with the first Hall of Fame inductees on it in which at least 2 or 3 of the autos were fakes?

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Posted By: Brett

LOL I predicted this would happen many months ago. you all know it was just a matter of time before UD did this.

Next thing they'll be doing is getting game used bubble gum that major leaguer chewed during a game and stick that on a card.

This game used crap that UD and all the rest have is just ruining baseball history.....

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Dennis,

I respectfully disagree with your conclusion. Maybe someone who would like to collect entire game used jerseys or bats cannot afford a complete Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, etc. jersey. This way, he or she gets to have a small swatch of Ruth's jersey, for a fraction of the price. Do I agree with UD's concept of cutting up historical artifacts? Not entirely. But I wouldn't classify people who like to collect that stuff as having "insiy tinsy brains." To each his own.

josh

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Posted By: Luc Mitchell

Upper Deck had the card with two fakes, it sold for about 80 thousand.

The one good thing about the Ruth jersey is that it is not the only one, and a couple (2-3?) have been discovered since.


Also, companies wouldn't do the get the whole bat/jersey deal---they could only use a jersey once (and in one product), whereas now they use rare jerseys for years (and in many products).

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Josh,

I disagree. I'd love to have a Ruth or Hank Greenberg or Ty Cobb bat; I'm guessing game used bats of these guys are prohibitively expensive. But there is no way I'd want a card with a sliver of their bats on it. You can buy such a Greenberg card any day on ebay -- and I have no interest. It just doesn't feel or look like a bat and Hank didn't hold that sliver that was dug out from within the bat. I simply don't understand the appeal.

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Posted By: Brett

lol, remember that Legendary Quad Cuts of Cobb, Ruth, Johnson and the Babe ?

I think 2 were found out to be fakes. I've never handled one of their signatures but the Ruth and Johnson signatures were obvious fakes. I'm betting some of their game used crap is to...

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Posted By: Rich Klein

Cut up but as the Beckett linked story said; there were three known Babe Ruth home jerseys at the time Donruss bought that item for use at more than a quarter of a million dollar.

The one of a kind item which was cut up and used for insertion was Georges Vezina goalie pads by Be a Player.

Just an FYI

Rich

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Posted By: Rich Klein

Brillianty written and done -- and yes this is a bit self-serving but enjoy it anyway

Rich

http://www.beckett.com/estore/news/?eskin=beckett&a=8104&s=1

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Posted By: Dylan

I wouldnt mind so much if they were cutting that supposed "PSA 8" Wagner up in little pieces instead of an unaltered Wagner!

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Posted By: Cobby33

I agree. To each his own. Some people (myself in the past)- enjoy collecting the game-used memorabilia. Makes you feel part of the game, as it were. However, cutting up a baseball card doesn't give one that same feeling, so I can't get into that. Some people might though. Many people don't understand our Vintage obsession. It is what it is, I suppose.

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Posted By: Erick Lewin

This is just disgusting. They wonder why the card market is where it is. Look in the mirror manufacturers. Stop for a second, just ask yourself....what the hell am i doing?

horrible

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Posted By: craig

i was just talking with my father about this whole t206 wagner/upper deck issue and once again he amazed me. regardless if its true or not, his response had to be shared with you all. his idea, 40 or 50 people buy a share or two of upper deck stock. their owning a piece of the company would entitle them the right to attend the anual stock holder meeting. with the right mix of troublemakers, and a lawyer or two in on this to keep other in check, there would be no way that any business would ever be done at the meeting. not sure if that would solve anything, however disrupting their operation for just that one day a year would surly send them a message.

craig

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

"Q.who in the hell would want a baseball card with an itsy bitsy piece of Ruth's jersey anyway?
A.someone with an itsy bitsy brain"

That's the kind of thing that people who don't collect vintage cards say about us. Why is spending money on a tiny piece of Ruth's jersey any stranger or less intelligent than spending money on an old piece of cardboard? Collect what you like.

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Posted By: Cobby3

My point exactly.

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Posted By: Mark L

I am plenty disgusted at the card companies for cutting up memorabilia and a little disappointed in collectors who don't feel uneasy about destroying Johnny Evers bats and Babe Ruth jersies. The "collect what you like" approach is fine with me. live and let live, let a thousand flowers bloom, etc. etc. The problem with game used memorabilia cards is that they have to destroy irreplaceable things to make them, thus making it harder for those of us who collect game used stuff to collect what we like. What they're doing isn't illegal or immoral but it shows incredibly bad taste.

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Posted By: Jim Dale

I whole heartedly agree with the collect what you like theory; and I no longer like Donruss and if this thread isn't about an April Fools' story I will most likley ignore anything Upper Deck. Its not hard for me; its not like I'm giving up anything as I don't buy anything Upper Deck right now anyway....I prefer another modern set and a few older sets and cards. But still; even if Donruss "came back" and offered something spectacular I'd probably avoid it and pray many collectors who feel its wrong to cut up Babe's oldest known jersey also ignore them. If enough people do that; eventually they get the message there is no money to be made in destroying good things.

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Posted By: Cobby33

We destory trees: water and organic ink are used in the card-making process- Vintage used the same materials. So, the argument that irreplaceable commodities are being used to make game-used cards, etc., falls a little short.

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Posted By: Mark L

Don't follow you Cobby. If you destroy a tree to make a baseball bat, you can replace the tree. Same thing with destroying trees to make baseball cards. I imagine that the same is true with whatever organic material you use to make the inks. But surely it's different with game used items. If you destroy a bat that was used by Speaker or Cobb, you just can't grow a new one.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Mark- I understand your point, although some would take issue with the statement that one can "replace a tree." Same goes for the other natural resources- add to that the waste that these manufacturing plants spew into the environment; the CO used in transporting the products, etc.

Again, I do see your point, but there's unfortunate waste in many aspects of the hobby. Am I going to quit collecting? Absolutely not. Should game-used collectors quit collecting game-used materials? I'd say it's their choice. Personally, I would rather have 100 or 1,000 collectors have a piece of a Cobb bat that they would truly enjoy, than have that same bat sit in some rich guy's closet or library somewhere - or have people make absurd amounts of money selling it over and over. Just my feelings.

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Posted By: David Smith

Cobby,

I would rather have people making money on one item by selling it over and over again. The history is preserved and taxes are being collected.

Bill Gates owns some of Da Vinci's original notebooks. I have no trouble with that. I know he has the resources to own and protect them and is keeping them away from some idiot who might take the folios apart and sell them page by page or line by line.

The people who buy and destroy artifacts should be arrested but they wont be. The people who buy those destroyed artifacts are worthless wannabes.


David

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Posted By: Dylan

Well considering the pace we've been deforesting the world, and burning fossil fuels, the destuction of valuable baseball cards may be the least of mankinds worries. But for now... i dont mind them cutting up modern players jerseys, the'll wear new ones that can be preserved or whatever. But 95 year old jerseys, where only a handful exist?? This can't go decade after decade, set after set. What does UD and topps plan on doing? Cutting up all the old timers jerseys and bats until they run out, and then they just call it a good run, and go out of business? Is that there business plan??

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Posted By: Cobby33

I guess I just don't understand the level of hostility towards those who collect game-used material. I think the bigger problem is the focusing of those hostilities towards hobby preferences, as opposed to using that energy to do something about global warming; expensive and morally-questionable wars; etc. Alas, that is inappropriate fodder for this Board.

I guess I'll just agree to disgaree with those who feel so strongly about GU cards and be thankful that I dumped all of mine, becuase it's a proven money-loser due to the volume of product and attention deficeit of most collectors.

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Posted By: RC McKenzie

I agree with namesake 'RC'. Upper Deck could buy the 1930 Goudey Ruth calender for their new 'pieces of the game' product, make tens of thousnds of dollars and still give the t206 Wagner back to the hobby.

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Posted By: Luc Mitchell

I wonder if the 'appreciation' of slivers of game used materials differs between card collectors and non card collectors---say one was to ask two huge sports fans, one a card collector and one not, which they would prefer (one item of 1000s of tiny items). My gut instinct is that a card collector would like the 1000s more, but that's just me.

If there was a difference, it could mean a couple things:
1) Modern collectors have become accustomed to it, eventually deciding to like it.
2) Said collectors are more inclined to it, as they see cards as being able to distribute the materials.
3) It's not about the actual bat/jersey piece, but about the card.

I would think it's #3. I don't see #1, as from personal experience (I collect modern Jonny Gomes cards), I detested game used cards even before I started collecting game used jerseys. Nor do I see #2, as the debate centralizes around the cutting up of materials, not the distribution of them.

#3, then, comes about on several grounds. First, memorabilia pieces (talk about a euphemism) are incorporated into the design of a card; no card is solely about the item (I'm just going to say 'slice' from here on out). An example of this is Beckett, which offers to put a bat chip in slabs for an additional fee. These are far from popular, and why? They're uncertified, ugly pieces of junk:


Moreover, I would question the attachment to an item in the first place. I posted this on three forums (and to clarify, yes, it is my April Fools joke)---here, PSA and Beckett. On the Beckett one, where slices are generally liked, the reasoning behind calling it a joke was there would be severe backlash against Upper Deck if a Wagner was actually destroyed. Note the hypocrisy? Destroy rare gamers, but not cards because people actually like them.

Last, I would question that any slice can bring someone closer to a player. Indeed, bat chips never saw the light of day, let alone touched by said player. Is the pursuit of any item, be it a card, bat, jersey or autograph not as important as the end of having that item?


A couple blippy comments:
Thanks for the kind words on the joke. Took a while, but it was a lot of fun!
Everything is made up of carbon; does that make everything the same?
I would much rather a museum have one gamer that 1000s of people having slices.


It's 1:48 AM, so if I made some logical error I'll reply much later.

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Posted By: nbrazil

"These companies cutting up baseball artifacts should instead keep the bat/jersey intact and insert cards for a drawing...the winner gets the bat/jersey."

They've done it before. I remember a 12 year old kid winning a lou gehrig jersey from upperdeck many years ago in a card shop near where I lived. It was all over the local press and the card shop owner made a huge deal out of it. The family probably sold the jersey (this kid was probably thinking, "who the hell is lou gehrig?"). I hope he kept it, though.

But, this was a few years before the whole game used craze. My guess is upperdeck would cut that gehrig jersey up today.

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Posted By: Mark L

I like to think that anyone sleazy enough to sell baseball cards that contain pieces of a Gehrig jersey or bat is also sleazy enough to substitute some old bathrobe or little league bat when it comes to making the card.

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Posted By: barrysloate

With the price of collectables and antiquities of all kinds soaring in price above the budgets of most collectors, we will see more objects broken up into small pieces. Not much anyone can do about it.

Does anybody remember that when the Beatles first came to New York and stayed at the Plaza Hotel, one of the hotel workers got ahold of their bedsheets and cut them into little one inch squares and sold each one for like five bucks apiece? But that was just a bedsheet, and it had no instrinsic value intact. Cutting up a Wagner, a uniform, a bat, or anything else is much worse. But it will continue to happen.