Bushing's latest debacle

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

http://www.nydailynews.com/05-08-2005/sports/baseball/yankees/story/307489p-263091c.html

Now he's authenticating stuff that he's never even touched. This article is in today's NY Daily News. You don't need a Master's Degree (a real one, not an imaginary one) to know to stay away from anything Bushing touches....

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Posted By: qualitycards.com

JEFF - Quite an interesting read.
Glad my collection is primarily cards.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

The following is a quote from the article:

Plancich says when he discussed the DiMaggio glove with Bushing a few years ago, the authenticator told him the glove is insignificant. "'The value is the letter,'" Plancich remembers Bushing telling him. " You can always get another glove.'"

Who in their right mind would make this statement?

On another note, this is such a blatent error that I find it hard to believe that a room full of vintage baseball collectors would not question a finger laced glove that was purported to be pre WWII. You would think that someone about to drop a quarter of a million dollars on a glove would do some research, but maybe the letter is all they really want.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Plancich has already been burned by Bushing et al. with their frivolous lawsuit; common sense tells me that he wouldn't dare make such a comment to the press unless he was sure he could back it up. Needless to say, the fact that Bushing's mistakes go on and on -- combined with some very shady business practices -- make it clear that you'd have to be nuts to trust this guy with your money.

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Posted By: PASJD

Who would you believe? 'Nuff said.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't know how anybody can collect and pay so much money for this stuff when this area of the market is so fraught with dangerous material. How can you even enjoy it? It's just nuts.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Barry, I think it's all about bragging rights. While I think that what Robert Plancich is doing is noble, I'm not so sure that the people he is looking out for appreciate what he is doing.

There is nothing that would allow me to part with a quarter million dollars on a leap of faith. Not even if I had Billy Crystals bank account.

Dan

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hey, people spend tens of millions of dollars on original art works; of course there have been forgeries discovered over the years as well. The game used authenticating market is obviously in its infancy, however; and until the jokers and the liars that are self-appointed "experts" on authentication are weeded out, the market is truly a crap shoot.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I always wondered how Billy Crystal felt about that purchase after he bought it...and I wonder even more how he feels about it now.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I think I read somewhere that Crystal was unconcerned with the date of the Mantle glove and was happy to just own a glove that Mantle used during his career. Of course he would have gotten it a lot cheaper had it been dated correctly.

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Posted By: HW

Who else is there to use to authenticate sports memorabilia?

Most of the major auction houses use Bushing: Sotheby's, REA, MastroNet, Heritage, Hunt's, etc.

What is the best alternative?

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Posted By: dennis

i think we can all cut dave some slack for making mistakes.no one is perfect. but non disclosure of ownership, "idiot" mistakes and authentication with out research do take there toll on a persons reputation.

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Posted By: PASJD

As the saying goes, a fool and his money are soon parted. There are too many "mistakes" and denials and too much arrogance of the "best defense is a good offense" variety in this sector of the hobby (see Mr. Bushing's posts a few months back on the game used forum) for my taste. I wouldn't go near any of this stuff unless I knew a whole hell of a lot more about it myself and didn't have to rely on the authenticators of the world.

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Posted By: Julie

Artball!). But I can understand the lure of a bat that di Maggio, Cobb, ruth once held, once swung, trying to imitate the swing. hefting the thing---I think it's the easiest thing in the world to understand! Unfortunately, such a bat's, or glove's authenticity is perilous in the proving...too perilous.

Is this dangerous trip necessary? Isn't there anyone out there who has the familiarity, memory, research capability and respect to authenticate such things?

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Posted By: barrysloate

I understand the pleasure of handling a bat used by Babe Ruth, but if every time you bought something game used you had this gnawing feeling that something might be wrong, how could you enjoy it?

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Posted By: Julie

1) you follow it's provenance and
2) you check with the bat and glove makers to see if the type in question was period.

I guess that's about all you can do, and I guess it can be done with some, but not with others...

The big problem is, respected authenticators are missing the boat, and not doing these two things--leaving it to someone else, later, to do them, and discover their goofs.

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Posted By: barrysloate

It seems like a constant leap of faith- sometimes big, sometimes small. Could you imagine if every time you bought a baseball card you had to question whether it was, real, trimmed, or altered (I know to an extant you do). At some point you would say this is no fun anymore and just throw in the towel.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, perish the thought. After all, Bushing has to eat, right? There's just a limited amount of work out there for an authenticator a few credits shy of a Master's Degree....

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Nice to see, additionally, that Bushing has branched out. Check out the 100s of items in the Heritage auction catalogue that he's put his name to: Marvin Harrison gamed used helmet, Troy Aikman gamed used jersey, etc. etc. Imagine if this guy actually got his Masters--the catalogue would be twice the size!

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Posted By: PASJD

How, I wonder, does one authenticate a Troy Aikman game-used helmet other than to take the word of someone who says he got it from someone who used to work in the Cowboy locker room who got it from Troy? Who needs an expert for that? Or does it have some distinctive numbers, or markings, or whatever?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Maybe Joe D or Tommy Henrich told him it was real.

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Posted By: PASJD

I know it's OT, but Leon seems to be tolerating this thread, so I pose the question, wasn't there just some big to-do about a Bart Starr game-used jersey that was authenticated by the SCDA gang?

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Posted By: dennis

that bart starr jersey debacle is in the game used forum

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Posted By: Dan

Here is the thread about the controversial Bart Starr jersey auctioned off at Vintage Authentics and authenticated by the boys at SCDA

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=379976&messageid=1109908364

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I vote this thread and all thread about Dave Bushing and game used stuff belongs over there. Let's keep it to vintage cards.

Lee

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Posted By: Josh Evans

Barry
I have great respect for you and praise you on your contribution to this Forum
In fact I think it is among the best of anyone on here (with deference to Leon)

But I think your comments with regards to “throwing in the towel” on game used is a bit naïve
There are plenty of problems much closer to home

In my opinion, the greatest problems of baseball forgery in terms of big dollar pieces being sold is in the Pete Nash stuff
This garbage has been sold for years in the major auctions
When are we going to turn our gaze towards that hornet’s nest?

Pieces selling for half a million dollars and nothing is questioned
Trophy balls coming out of the woodwork like locusts
The Cartwright Collection?

I have been talking about this stuff for years and no one seems to want to listen

Josh Evans

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hey Josh,
I know of course that there are many good pieces with ironclad provenance- but since I have never dealt in bats, uniforms, or gloves, and try to avoid autographs, my lack of knowledge has probably just made me too nervous to handle this material.
But your post will certainly open many cans, and a few large vats, of worms. I won't go on record to say if I agree or disagree with what you are claiming (I like to play diplomat on this board), but I will admit to scratching my head a few times over the years. But I know you are thick skinned enough to take the backlash, so I'll keep my eyes open to what ensues on this post. Regards, Barry P.S.- Wasn't the Cartwright collection one of your great finds?

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Posted By: Josh Evans

Did I say Cartwright Collection?
I meant the Chadwick Collection as in Henry Chadwick
I AM getting old (44 a couple of weeks ago)

Yes the Cartwright Collection was one of my great finds and I got it directly from the family
Proud enough to have an explanation of provenance that could be traced and backed up

And AFTER I was there a “Cartwright Baseball” showed up (which did not exist when I was there) and was sold for a ton of money to a non professional
By the way Anne Cartwright told me the family story was that the ball was unraveled and destroyed by family children
Josh

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Posted By: barrysloate

Anne actually told me she was cleaning out the bottom of a dresser drawer and lo and behold- she found the original Knickerbocker ball wrapped in newspaper. I always wondered how it escaped the family's attention for a century and a half that they had this monumental ball in a drawer but nobody ever found it. I took that story with a bucket of salt. Nice woman, a bit eccentric to say the least. And I'm going to be 53- I still had a good memory at 44. No excuses!

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Hi Josh,

The Chadwick material (including the 1853 Knickerbocker ball) sold in recent years by Mastronet and Robert Edward Auctions has impeccable provenance which I am not at liberty to disclose. Since we last discussed the ball, there has been additional information I have been both told and shown in confidence which corroborates what I already knew at the time I bought the ball. I have 100% confidence the ball and other items are as represented (even including the trophy case of balls from the 1869 Red Stockings tour). I know we discussed having the 1853 ball chemically tested at your expense. I may still take you up on that. However, should the day ever come that I can reveal the other information I have, then I think even you will be persuaded. I prefer to wait simply because there are physical risks to the ball posed by the testing. Think of it in the meantime that I am saving you a lot of money!!

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Posted By: HW

Josh,

Why do you think that the Chadwick stuff is no good? It seems as though the Chadwick related items in the recent Robert Edwards auction were well researched by the auction house and went for aggressive prices (I assume that they buyers are also dooing their homework on a $500,000 tropy ball!)

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Posted By: WP

Was Pete Nash involved in the rap music industry??

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Posted By: barrysloate

He sang in a rap group called "Third Base." He once appeared on the show "In Living Color."