Increcible prices for PWCC auctions

[Peter_Spaeth]

Two people apparently would. This is higher than the two 88s reported by VCP, and more than double what the last 7 sold for. Guess the moral of the story is consign to PWCC?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-Goudey-...p2047675.l2557

[T205 GB]

Any fishy bidding?

[CW]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Guess the moral of the story is consign to PWCC?

I shipped 7 cards to PWCC this afternoon.

Here's another odd comparison (although not preWWII...)

This PSA 8 Red Heart Mickey Mantle sold for $1252.

This PSA 7 example, with similar centering, sold for $1331.

[doug.goodman]

As I guy who buys cards, I would.

If I was a guy who liked to buy slabs, I probably would not.

Doug

[Matthew H]

I wouldn't pay more for a 7 then an 8, and vice versa.

Maybe that's why I've never had an 8.

[Eric72]

It all depends on the two particular cards.

If an undergraded 7 is nicer than an overgraded 8, then sure...I would pay more for it. After all, the grade is just an opinion.

Two different graders can have vastly different criteria when grading cards. It shouldn't be this way...but it does happen. Cards can also be damaged after grading.

In short, buy the card, not the holder.

[ullmandds]

I'd buy a 2-4 and put the money saved towards something more useful!

[CMIZ5290]

The cut on the top of the card looks suspicious, especially on the back side. It almost appears to be jagged. How in the world can this card bring $8200?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I'd buy a 2-4 and put the money saved towards something more useful!

Me too. I made that decision right out of the gate when I first started collecting to go for cards that are decent but not usually high grade. More power to those that have so much faith in pointy corners.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

The cut on the top of the card looks suspicious, especially on the back side. It almost appears to be jagged. How in the world can this card bring $8200?

Good question. Even as a killer 84 history would say it is worth half what it sold for. PWCC in general seems to get exceptional prices but this one struck me as particularly out of line.

The red heart mantle chuck posted makes no sense either, on a smaller scale.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not particularly well centered, but nevertheless a new world record for PWCC at least for reported VCP sales, besting the old record by over $1300 unless I missed something.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-Topps-H...p2047675.l2557

Time to consign it all?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Nobody cares apparently, but here's a major record-setter, at 1225 and not even closed yet with VCP average 500.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400448814894...84.m1438.l2649

[freakhappy]

Why are these prices going berserk? Is there that much to be said about PWCC that their prices realized are double VCP?. I'm having a hard time understanding all of this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Why are these prices going berserk? Is there that much to be said about PWCC that their prices realized are double VCP?. I'm having a hard time understanding all of this.

Dunno. Apparently whenever anyone tries to discuss this at CU it gets poofed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here is a good one. $2500 card. Sold for $5101.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-Topps-M...p2047675.l2557

[Leon]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Why are these prices going berserk? Is there that much to be said about PWCC that their prices realized are double VCP?. I'm having a hard time understanding all of this.

Probably safety bids that aren't really happening. My feeling has always been that ebay is a safe haven for people bidding on their own stuff that is consigned. And when the big sellers get told about it they sort of deal with it. (when forced) Just my opinion. I don't see a seller adding double the value to a fairly common card...but maybe I don't know the value they provide.

[lharri3600]

If these are true bids I'm going to send him a 1952 Topps Mantle PSA 3 soon

[peterose4hof]

The two highest bidders on the 1975 Brett have a decent percentage of their bids with PWCC and both have multiple retractions to their credit.

[theuclakid]

I don't think it is a wild shot in the dark to strongly believe some consignors are running up bids on their cards, either by themselves or by "friends"...many of these cards garnering outrageous bids are nothing "special" for the grade, and are often available for considerably less as a BIN on Ebay...I have been told in years past by auctions houses (who wanted my consignments) that they would "make sure" that the bids on my cards would reach a "safe" level. Bidders have to be careful, not get involved emotionally in the bidding process, and stick with their own ceiling, and understand these "practices" are rampant....but "overlooked" for the most part....Bruce Perry

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bruce, we could have a whole other discussion about the identity of some of those consignors, couldn't we? What a world.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Leon

Me too. I made that decision right out of the gate when I first started collecting to go for cards that are decent but not usually high grade. More power to those that have so much faith in pointy corners.

Couldn't have said it better, I almost never go after "super high grade" examples of any card I want. Call me crazy but I actually prefer a little "aging" to my vintage cards

[Bosox Blair]

By coincidence, I just won a couple lots from PWCC on eBay. Prices were good and well under my snipe bids (which were based on VCP records of recent past auctions).

Also, I spoke with Brent there on the telephone regarding shipping and he was very, very good to deal with - responsive and service-oriented.

Count me as a happy customer (and no other affiliation).

Cheers,
Blair

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bosox Blair

By coincidence, I just won a couple lots from PWCC on eBay. Prices were good and well under my snipe bids (which were based on VCP records of recent past auctions).

Also, I spoke with Brent there on the telephone regarding shipping and he was very, very good to deal with - responsive and service-oriented.

Count me as a happy customer (and no other affiliation).

Cheers,
Blair

Blair, there is no doubt he is a good seller and gives great customer service. There is also no doubt that the majority of his auctions probably don't have consignors or friends of consignors bidding on their own items. It's hard to explain some of the other things we have seen though. And I will even add that my few experiences with his company have been the same as yours.

[Cardboard Junkie]

I concur. PWCC is one of the best. Always has great consignments and spectacular service. A credit to the hobby. Dave.

[Touch'EmAll]

I have a run of Aaron's in PSA 8 and always keep an eye out for them.

I did bid on a handful of vintage Aaron's, with healthy bids, and won none.

The prices seem to have really jumped. Even with other ebay sellers, Aaron's and early Nolan Ryan's have have hit a new higher price level.

And a while back I posted about some T206's also going for more than expected prices.

Good signs for the hobby. After all, they aren't making any more of this stuff (supply) and demand seems to be high.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

I concur. PWCC is one of the best. Always has great consignments and spectacular service. A credit to the hobby. Dave.

Would it concern you if (hypothetically) some of those consignments were from, shall we say, less than reputable sources? Just curious.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Would it concern you if (hypothetically) some of those consignments were from, shall we say, less than reputable sources? Just curious.

I don't think so, unless I suspected cards had been doctored.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

I don't think so, unless I suspected cards had been doctored.

LOLOLOLOLOL

As for these astronomical final bids on those auctions pointed out on the thread, assuming they are shilled or protected by the consignor can someone explain who on earth would shill or protect an auction to 50%, or more, over the last highest recorded sale on cards which are readily available? Not like consignors or those placing those bids know the ceiling bids or the bids that will be made by the eventual winner. Seems ridiculously risky to bid up something that high not knowing how high you can go. If these items are actually being won by real bidders then it is a real head scratcher.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As it is often hard to tell doctoring from scans, I personally am suspicious of cards from people widely thought to be card doctors whether or not I can spot obvious evidence of alteration. But whatever, that's just my personal preference.

[scotgreb]

Have a look at the bidding on this essentially worthless card . . .

This nonsense really needs to be cleaned up. Hopefully market forces will eventually trump ethics.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-Topps-R...item20d0de2d00

[Peter_Spaeth]

With ebay turning a blind eye to bidding practices, nothing is going to happen. And with ebay sellers (not to mention auction houses) gladly taking major consignments from card doctors, nothing is going to happen on that front either. One has to just exercise one's judgment the best one can. Unless one prefers to see no evil hear no evil, which is fine too.

Another new world record (by a lot)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-Topps-W...vip=true&rt=nc

[forazzurri2axz]

Do you really think that someone with 1000 or so lots in an auction is going to screw around with shill bidding a $26 card? Perhaps a friend of the consignor did so at the consignor's request but why would he risk winning his own card and have to pay approx $8 in fees?? regards Bill

[scotgreb]

Bill-
I'm not sure I fully understand your comment. What makes you think the consignor has 1000 lots out there? -- this might be his/her only one (but probably 36 - see below). I'm not suggesting the consignee is doing anything other than turning a blind eye (as others have here and in other venues). This is simply the item that I stumbled on (as a Clemente collector) that is a perfect example of this becoming-all-too-common activity. I'm not certain of anything ... but those certainly do not look like bona fide bids. A 0-Feedback bidder who decides to make 85 bids on 36 unique items offered by the same consignee over a short period of time?

[bobbyw8469]

A 0-Feedback bidder who decides to make 85 bids on 36 unique items offered by the same consignee over a short period of time?

..and a card that typically sells for $10 all of the sudden sells for $26??
I guess I just don't understand how people can bypass numerous cheaper BINs just to bid something to a stupid high level. And if these items ARE INDEED being shilled, isn't there some fear of the consignor actually being stuck with the item and a huge bill? Does a consignor actually want to pay $5,000 for a card that might only bring $2,500 every single other time it goes up for sale??

[bobbyw8469]

PS - you forget this card. Went for double the average selling price. A new record high. I can see if the card was severly undergraded, maybe a '5' in a '3' holder. But this card is HIDEOUS. The centering is horrible on it. To be the record setting '3' that sold for DOUBLE Vcp average (VCP avg=$17. This card sold for $35)....I just don't see it...

[KCRfan1]

I agree with you Robert. Anyone could find a nicer Clemente for the same amount paid for that 3. That Clemente is rough.

[bobbyw8469]

That Clemente SHOULD NOT be the record setter!! You can get better looking cards TWO grades higher for less money!

On a side note, let me share my experiences buying and selling with PWCC. He is great! Never a problem. Now my consignments - some have been great, most have been average, some have set record lows. I have NEVER sold a card for double VCP average. Never had a head scratcher. Here is one of the creams of my last consignment.

Bobby Jones PSA 5. It looked like a 7/8. Obviously the best card in that grade. It sold for $787. All Star Cards paying $750 for that particular card in that particular grade. Ended up losing a couple hondo on it. I could have saved myself a hefty consignment fee just by selling the card to them. If ANY card should have been a record breaker, it should have been that one - not a fugly Clemente PSA 3.



I don't get the surge on some of the cards. As a collector myself, I don't look at PWCC auctions anymore, as I feel there are no deals to be had there anymore. Apparently I am in a minority though, as he is obviously setting record prices. Are they real prices or is this MastoNet all over again? I don't know. Alot of people are taking notice, as there are MULTIPLE threads on the subject matter this very day.

[milkit1]

I just got a holmes on holmes sgc10 chance for $130 from pwcc. I thoght that was a very good deal and pwcc was very quick on shipping. I think he has a lot of high enders following him and thus he gets pretty high prices on the high end stuff.

[Rob D.]

A $17 card sells for $35? I weep for our future.

[Peter_Spaeth]

VCP 475, recent sales in the low 400s. PWC 991. Must be that great service!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1979-Topps-O...item5d3c9c02f4

[Peter_Spaeth]

New world record by a huge margin; if you take out PWCC's reported sales, only one of these ever went over ONE thousand. What's the secret?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-Topps-M...p2047675.l2557

[jefferyepayne]

My opinion only and I've said this in the past. The sum of:

Card doctoring that gets by grader who are not very good + repeated submissions of cards until a dealer gets the grade they want + suspiciously high grades given to higher volume dealers + shill bidding in actions + buying the slab instead of the card = a huge bubble for high grade cards.

When this bubble eventually bursts, there's going to be a lot of unhappy collectors of PSA 8, 9, 10s. Don't be one of them.

jeff

[calvindog]

Love PWCC auctions! Won this one the other night:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140956616869

The underbidder bid $178 more than the bidder below -- and he bid on just 5 auctions in the past 30 days, all in PWCC auctions!

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Love PWCC auctions! Won this one the other night:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140956616869

The underbidder bid $178 more than the bidder below -- and he bid on just 5 auctions in the past 30 days, all in PWCC auctions!

safety bid successful!

[ZernialFan]

I know certain things sometimes go on in the hobby. But I have to say I've had some cards in the last B & L Auction with good results. I also had some cards in the last two PWCC Auctions. So far good results. A few cards went higher then I expected, but no shill bids by me or my friends. Many of the cards were mine from when I was a kid and later graded with no doctoring.
They were not PWCC cards. I'm sure I have high % with a few sellers as they seem to have cards that I'm interested and I keep returning to buy.
I know everything is not perfect as we would like it to be, but I felt I needed
to at least stick up for PWCC, so far, in my little corner of experience with them.

Charlie

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by Leon

Me too. I made that decision right out of the gate when I first started collecting to go for cards that are decent but not usually high grade. More power to those that have so much faith in pointy corners.

I was lucky to purchase high grade Cobb cards in the 1980's.. I would not be able to afford such cards today.

Joe

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Love PWCC auctions! Won this one the other night:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140956616869

The underbidder bid $178 more than the bidder below -- and he bid on just 5 auctions in the past 30 days, all in PWCC auctions!

I'm confused. Yes a 3 second shill is possible, but isn't this what happens when two people snipe bid in the same auction with a "gotta have it" mentality? Both bids within 6 seconds of the hammer. If the price is too high, aren't both parties equally guilty? Clearly the 3 second bidder, didn't know that a 6 second bidder was out there. Just a thought.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

My opinion only and I've said this in the past. The sum of:

Card doctoring that gets by grader who are not very good + repeated submissions of cards until a dealer gets the grade they want + suspiciously high grades given to higher volume dealers + shill bidding in actions + buying the slab instead of the card = a huge bubble for high grade cards.

When this bubble eventually bursts, there's going to be a lot of unhappy collectors of PSA 8, 9, 10s. Don't be one of them.

jeff

I agree Jeff. I do believe that high grades are given to higher volume dealers and I have my own experience to draw from in that respect. About two years ago I purchased a PSA 10 from an ebayer who deals in highly graded PSA cards. This dealer turns lots of PSA's in selling. This was a one of one, and I actually believe the price on the card was a mistake by the seller since the price was extremely less than the other one of's they were selling. The card I bought was an icon of the game. I checked PSA for the population and it was a one of. I had owned the card for about six months and checked the population report again, and to my surprise ANOTHER PSA 10 had been granted. This card was over 40 years old and out of the blue another 10? Sure enough the same seller had the same card again in a PSA 10. Three months ago I unloaded mine. That is why I always try to buy raw cards.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Love PWCC auctions! Won this one the other night:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140956616869

The underbidder bid $178 more than the bidder below -- and he bid on just 5 auctions in the past 30 days, all in PWCC auctions!

Do I smell class action?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I'm confused. Yes a 3 second shill is possible, but isn't this what happens when two people snipe bid in the same auction with a "gotta have it" mentality? Both bids within 6 seconds of the hammer. If the price is too high, aren't both parties equally guilty? Clearly the 3 second bidder, didn't know that a 6 second bidder was out there. Just a thought.

Frank, I don't have a problem with two people putting a high snipe in -- it just seems bizarre that the underbidder only bids on PWCC auctions. And this isn't the first time such a thing has has happened in a PWCC auction. Or the second time. Or the third time.

Edited to add: this is not to say this is the auctioneer's fault -- it could be the consignor.