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  #1  
Old 11-14-2011, 01:57 PM
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Default Ty Cobb's Legacy if he was traded?

I had read this story before but with my recent acquisition of a T206 Elmer Flick I wanted to freshen up on his career and there it was.In 1907 the Tigers offered Cobb straight up for Flick and the Indians declined.Great luck for the Tigers as Cobb went on to become the greatest hitter ever in my opinion and Flick shortly burned out.So my question is would Cobb's Legacy/Status be better,worse,or about the same if he went to the Cleveland?Im not sure what I think and am curious to see how others feel.Thanks.
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Old 11-14-2011, 02:07 PM
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Default History re-write?

Kind of straying from your original question, but that would put Cobb in the same outfield with Shoeless Joe from 1910-1915... presumably Cleveland would have been a better team with the two sluggers. Would the Naps dare have traded Jackson to the Sox in '15 if they were winning?
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Old 11-14-2011, 02:10 PM
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Default The Same

Hank Greenberg went from Detroit to Pittsburgh. Although Hank came along several decades later I don't believe his legacy would have been any different. You can make the same case in the post-war era with Frank Robinson.
As Popeye says: I am what I am and that's all that I am...
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Old 11-14-2011, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t206hound View Post
Kind of straying from your original question, but that would put Cobb in the same outfield with Shoeless Joe from 1910-1915... presumably Cleveland would have been a better team with the two sluggers. Would the Naps dare have traded Jackson to the Sox in '15 if they were winning?
Interesting.If Cobb went there Jackson's career probably would have been untarnished.
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Old 11-14-2011, 02:58 PM
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And there is probably a good chance if Cleveland had both Cobb and Jackson, they would have been looking to shore up their pitching staff sometime around 1916 to get over the hump. The Red Sox might have traded Babe Ruth to Cleveland instead of New York.
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Old 11-15-2011, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul S View Post
Hank Greenberg went from Detroit to Pittsburgh. Although Hank came along several decades later I don't believe his legacy would have been any different. You can make the same case in the post-war era with Frank Robinson.
As Popeye says: I am what I am and that's all that I am...
Hardly the same thing. Cobb was at the beginning of his career, while Hank was finishing up. (In 1907, Cobb was 22. Greenberg went to Pittsburgh when he was 36.) Of course Greenberg's legacy was the same -- he stayed in Pgh. only a year before retiring.

And Robinson was in mid career when he went from Cincinnati to Baltimore. He won MVPs in both leagues. Now there's a Legacy!

The question asks if a Hall of Fame caliber player would have achieved that mark had he played for another team. So here's one ... In 1959, the Kansas City A's and the Pirates were about to swap players. Dick Groat for Roger Maris. Straight up. The Pirates vetoed the deal at the last minute. (See http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=4282,980757) Now neither of these guys is in the Hall, but their careers took similar turns -- the following year, both won MVP trophies. Would Maris' career have flourished in Pittsburgh, with its distant fences, as it did in New York (where he was traded later in the same month)? And for most of his New York career, Maris played right field. But in Pittsburgh, Roberto Clemente held that job.

And speaking if what ifs ... Frank Robinson was traded from the Orioles to the Dodgers in 1971 for a boatload of players, including a young pitcher, Doyle Alexander. Alexander became a journeyman, playing for a total of eight teams. He ended his career in Detroit, having been traded there in 1987 by the Braves for another young pitcher -- John Smoltz.
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Old 11-15-2011, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagecpa View Post
And there is probably a good chance if Cleveland had both Cobb and Jackson, they would have been looking to shore up their pitching staff sometime around 1916 to get over the hump. The Red Sox might have traded Babe Ruth to Cleveland instead of New York.
Now that's an interesting over-write! Good point.
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Old 11-15-2011, 12:33 PM
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Hardly the same thing. Cobb was at the beginning of his career, while Hank was finishing up. (In 1907, Cobb was 22. Greenberg went to Pittsburgh when he was 36.) Of course Greenberg's legacy was the same -- he stayed in Pgh. only a year before retiring.

And Robinson was in mid career when he went from Cincinnati to Baltimore. He won MVPs in both leagues. Now there's a Legacy!

The question asks if a Hall of Fame caliber player would have achieved that mark had he played for another team. So here's one ... In 1959, the Kansas City A's and the Pirates were about to swap players. Dick Groat for Roger Maris. Straight up. The Pirates vetoed the deal at the last minute. (See http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=4282,980757) Now neither of these guys is in the Hall, but their careers took similar turns -- the following year, both won MVP trophies. Would Maris' career have flourished in Pittsburgh, with its distant fences, as it did in New York (where he was traded later in the same month)? And for most of his New York career, Maris played right field. But in Pittsburgh, Roberto Clemente held that job.

And speaking if what ifs ... Frank Robinson was traded from the Orioles to the Dodgers in 1971 for a boatload of players, including a young pitcher, Doyle Alexander. Alexander became a journeyman, playing for a total of eight teams. He ended his career in Detroit, having been traded there in 1987 by the Braves for another young pitcher -- John Smoltz.
Professor, I have to politely disagree. The initial question is about legacy/status, which is about how we see it now. Cobb with Jackson or staying with Crawford as his co-outfielder...and Crawford is not too shabby. Do we reflect on Speaker's legacy and status?
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Old 11-15-2011, 02:02 PM
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If Jackson and Cobb are in Cleveland does Jackson ever make it to Chicago? I would say no, at least not till after 1919 because Cleveland would be competing for championships. So then does Jackson actually have a full career by not getting involved with the scandal? I would love to have seen 20 years of "Shoeless" stats.

Last edited by hunterdutchess; 11-15-2011 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 11-15-2011, 02:04 PM
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I think at one point early in his carrer Detroit offered Cobb to Philadellphia. I don't think his individual stats would have differed too much, but what would his legacy be with serveral championships & how monsterous would those A's teams been with him in the outfield!

Last edited by brob28; 11-15-2011 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 11-15-2011, 03:36 PM
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This would make a fascinating essay. And if I was still in college I would do just that. This is the part of collecting and studying that I like most of all. Nothing beats a well thought out what-if scenario like this. The ramafications of such a trade could change baseball forever, not just in the era that Cobb and Jackson played, but it could alter baseball history through the present day.
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Old 11-15-2011, 11:24 PM
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Cobb would have been with his gambling/fixing buddy Tris Speaker a bit earlier than when both played for the A's in late 20s.
Both of them (including Smokey Joe Wood) were accused of betting/fixing a game in late 1919 ( a good year for a fix I guess... ie J.Jackson).

Even with Cleveland (with Jackson, Lajoie, and later Speaker) Cobb would have been the same extremely famous player........... lol, even if he changed teams as much as Gaylord Perry did in his career

I dont believe he could have tarnished his career with anything stupid he did ... he was a mean racist game fixing gambler with no friends... yet is 2nd only to Babe Ruth in name recognition/fame for that Era. All because of his play on the field... like it should be IMO
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