N174 Old Judge Bob Fitzsimmons

[aaroncc]

Thought it was interesting enough to share, a fellow boxing collector in the UK recently picked up a N174 Old Judge Bob Fitzsimmons. Very tough card.

[butcher354435]

That is a big pick-up!

[Exhibitman]

Huge. So where's the photo?

[aaroncc]

Here it is.

[D. Bergin]

Mustache always throws me off when I see that pose of Fitzsimmons.

[Andy Baran]

Where did he find it? Is it going to become available?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Mustache always throws me off when I see that pose of Fitzsimmons.

Maybe he was planning a career in porn

[aaroncc]

Hi Andy,

He bought it from another collector in England. Unfortunately he has no plans to sell it. Normally will only trade or sell a card if it's a duplicate.

[boxingcarddigest]

Wow, I've been looking for that card for years !

[Andy Baran]

It's interesting to me that we know this card is an Australian issue, yet the last 2 examples of this card that surfaced were both in England. Prior to the recent trade that Aaron mentions, the last example of the card that I am aware of was sold to Jay Miller on ebay from another seller in England several years ago.

[Exhibitman]

Are they always pink tinted?

[aaroncc]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Are they always pink tinted?

No the Australian issues are both pink and sepia.

[boxingcarddigest]

It's interesting to me that we know this card is an Australian issue, yet the last 2 examples of this card that surfaced were both in England. Prior to the recent trade that Aaron mentions, the last example of the card that I am aware of was sold to Jay Miller on ebay from another seller in England several years ago.

Could just be coincidence. I know of one UK collector that's held some extremely rare cards in the past and he did many trades years ago with collectors in Australia during his regular visits.

[aaroncc]

Curious why anyone assumes that they were issued in Australia? Other than the boxers depicted came from that area, style of card etc... Not sure it makes sense that a handful or so of the N174's were issued from Australia and one from UK (Jem Smith). Anybody else have any thoughts?

[boxingcarddigest]

The UK and Aussie OJ's looked different (with the different text at the bottom). They also matched other cards from the set during that era. The Jem Smith card is from what I understand part of a set containing celebrities, etc but I haven't seen other cards fomr that set to match it with.

The Aussie N174's are from a set that includes politicians and football players. The boxing cards and the other cards from this set share the same layout, text, etc (as well as the boxers depicted all being well known and fighting in Australia at the time). THe Aussie N174's are dated c.1890, due to who is depicted on the cards. I have a list of the set in the Asutralian edition of the World Tobacco Index I have at home. I think I also have some other scans of politicians in the set.

Here is an Aussie N174 boxer:


Here is a football player:


Here is the Smith N174:

[boxingcarddigest]

And now for something really interesting.

The Aussie N174 footballers came in two different styles. The example I showed above, with the blank back. And the pic I have below. Not sure if you can see it in this picture, but this didn't have the Old Judge writing on the front - but it had an OJ advertisement on the back of the card.

I have never seen two cards depicting the same player in both formats, so I can't say if some players were one format, and some the other. If I ever do see two players with two different format cards, then we can only assume that the boxers may also come with this type (with the OJ advert on the back). Now that would be cool.

[Exhibitman]

Like this Larry Foley?

[aaroncc]

Thanks David. Forgot about the football players. I have also seen the Mick Dooley with and without Dogshead ad on back. I use to collect the N174 nonsports. I will attach a scan of a favorite that I sold.

[boxingcarddigest]

Adam,
I forgot about that card, so in theory the other N174 Aussies (ie Fitzsimmons) could arise with the Dog's Head back.

Aaron,
THat's the UK set I was talking about (that features Jem Smith)

[butcher354435]

I have always believed the Australian issue matches up with the UK Dog's Head issue. So yes, I believe a Dog's Head Fitz does exist or did...same as a Peter Jackson Dog's Head.

The Jem Smith is the only boxer in a series all its own, at least that I'm aware of.

Here is the other half to Adam's card...

[Exhibitman]

Forgive me for being slow (it's Friday) if I missed it, but is the back on your Foley imprinted or blank?

[boxingcarddigest]

I have always believed the Australian issue matches up with the UK Dog's Head issue. So yes, I believe a Dog's Head Fitz does exist or did...same as a Peter Jackson Dog's Head.

That still wouldn't explain why the Aussie Rules football players have the advertising on the back. They certainly wouldn't be UK issued, but are part of the same Aussie Old Judge set with the boxers and politicians.

[butcher354435]

Adam, the back is blank as with all Australian Boxer OJ's that I've seen.

David, I can't comment on the Aussie FB players as I have only focused on the boxers. For every Dog's Head Boxer I've seen I have also seen the Australian counterpart. Obviously, with Dog's Head Boxers being so rare I have only seen a handful so my sample size is small but again I have documented an Australian OJ to match everyone so far.

[oldjudge]

Hi Guys! I just found this forum. In answer to Adam's question-my Fitzsimmons is not pink.

Brent-Why do you assume that the Dogs Head boxers were a UK rather than an Australian issue?

[aaroncc]

Hi Jay,

Curious if your N174 Fitz is the same as the one pictured in Seconds Out- Round One By Evan Jones?

[BCN]

The mustache isn't the worst part of that pic. He also was wearing "plumpers" in his tights because he was ashamed of his bird legs. At least that's the legend.

You guys check out my updated site: boxingcollectors.com. I have loads of scans of pre-1920 photos as part of my gallery. And if you need a scan, I own hundreds of cabinets and cdv's.

Don Scott