Ty Cobb’s Legacy

[StraightRaceCards]

This may be an old subject to some, but as a newer T206 guy, I had this initial impression of Cobb being a great ball player, but dirty and selfish.

Curious on everyone’s opinion here- where do you stand on his legacy as a person and ball player?

Watched a fantastic lecture from the guy who wrote on Cobb that changed my mindset. I now stand in the camp of… “Amazing player, somewhat decent guy”

Interview here:
https://youtu.be/OjbPzoboilM

Thoughts? Maybe a poll would be cool here.

Matt

[skelly423]

Indisputably great ballplayer, rightly an inner-circle hall of famer. He played in an era where the sport was more violent and rough, and was an intense competitor who wouldn't back down from anyone.

Off the field, I think he was a product of his era. Raised in the post civil war south, he was probably on some level a white supremacist. I'm not sure his views on race were any worse than most of his teammates or peers. I've heard interviews where he spoke highly of Willie Mays, and have seen the famous picture of him speaking to Hank Aaron about hitting. That said, I don't think he was a saint either.

I think he was a complicated man, probably a cold and unfriendly person, but not the monster portrayed in Al Stump's biography. In terms of baseball villains, I certainly wouldn't raise him to the level of Cap Anson

[raulus]

Part of the fun is that most of us weren't around at the time. And those of us that were actually around probably weren't personal social intimates with Tyrus. So we're left to sort through various 2nd or 3rd party accounts, which at times may be conflicting.

Certainly I've read one or more books (one of which I think you cited) that suggest that the prevailing historical narrative around Cobb was based on one journalist's sloppy/outright fake news reporting, in which the reporter fabricated a lot of the racism, both because he was too lazy to get the real story, and possibly also in an attempt to increase readership by injecting scandal. Once this story was out there, it seems to have gone viral, with basically every other journalistic source repeating it as gospel.

The author in the book that I read makes the point that although Cobb was from the south, his father was a university professor, which for a ballplayer at that time would be a unique and rather sophisticated background, perhaps therefore being less likely to be as prone to some of the prevalent and prevailing racial attitudes in the south. It's been a while since I read it, but I also recall the author spending some time to look into the details around how Cobb comported himself with minorities, as well as evaluating some of his written letters and correspondence to suggest that Cobb was not the raging racist that the press has labeled him to be.

My takeaway after reading the book was that, if the author's arguments were true, then Cobb had been mislabeled as a racial supervillain. But there's no question that history has not been kind to Cobb, and most people find it easier to just repeat what they've heard rather than considering the possibility that it might not be accurate.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by raulus

his father was a university professor, which for a ballplayer at that time would be a unique and rather sophisticated background, perhaps therefore being less likely to be as prone to some of the prevalent and prevailing racial attitudes in the south. .

I'm not well read on Cobb. But the supposition that education decreases racism is flat wrong. It is not based in fact, especially for Gilded Age America. Academics supported and bred racism throughout US higher education. Our college elite often focused on maintaining white hierarchy. There is a reason we have Historically Black Colleges in this country. Further, academics ate hook-line-and-sinker the overt lie of Social Darwinism. My US History MA thesis was about a turn of the century artist who found his direction at the 1914 World's Fair in SF. There, Blacks were publicly battling overt racism not only in the Fun Zone, but also in academic buildings where they were pushing Social Darwinism as well as eugenics. These concepts were Coast to coast.

In 1917, our elite were scared to intermingle blacks and whites in the US Army. West Point graduates were scared to give blacks guns. They sent black soldiers to France to dig ditches and drive horses. The French, taking massive losses, asked to use the black soldiers and US leaders were OK with that suspecting they would die. But many survived and displayed extraordinary heroism, and some earned the equivalent of the Medal of Honor in France. When they came home, they came home to find that their efforts in France were buried and forgotten by the US media. Many of the leaders of the national media were college graduates.

Today, many people believe colleges are liberal bastions. Maybe they are. But let's not reflect our modern lens onto a completely different era that operated under completely different social orders.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by todeen

I'm not well read on Cobb. But the supposition that education decreases racism is flat wrong. It is not based in fact, especially for Gilded Age America. Academics supported and bred racism throughout US higher education. Our college elite often focused on maintaining white hierarchy. There is a reason we have Historically Black Colleges in this country. Further, academics ate hook-line-and-sinker the overt lie of Social Darwinism. My US History MA thesis was about a turn of the century artist who found his direction at the 1914 World's Fair in SF. There, Blacks were publicly battling overt racism not only in the Fun Zone, but also in academic buildings where they were pushing Social Darwinism as well as eugenics. These concepts were Coast to coast.

In 1917, our elite were scared to intermingle blacks and whites in the US Army. West Point graduates were scared to give blacks guns. They sent black soldiers to France to dig ditches and drive horses. The French, taking massive losses, asked to use the black soldiers and US leaders were OK with that suspecting they would die. But many survived and displayed extraordinary heroism, and some earned the equivalent of the Medal of Honor in France. When they came home, they came home to find that their efforts in France were buried and forgotten by the US media. Many of the leaders of the national media were college graduates.

Today, many people believe colleges are liberal bastions. Maybe they are. But let's not reflect our modern lens onto a completely different era that operated under completely different social orders.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

Just wanted to say thanks for the great post

[drcy]

He may have improved with time. However, his fellow players didn't paint him in a good light.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by todeen

I'm not well read on Cobb. But the supposition that education decreases racism is flat wrong. It is not based in fact, especially for Gilded Age America. Academics supported and bred racism throughout US higher education. Our college elite often focused on maintaining white hierarchy. There is a reason we have Historically Black Colleges in this country. Further, academics ate hook-line-and-sinker the overt lie of Social Darwinism. My US History MA thesis was about a turn of the century artist who found his direction at the 1914 World's Fair in SF. There, Blacks were publicly battling overt racism not only in the Fun Zone, but also in academic buildings where they were pushing Social Darwinism as well as eugenics. These concepts were Coast to coast.

In 1917, our elite were scared to intermingle blacks and whites in the US Army. West Point graduates were scared to give blacks guns. They sent black soldiers to France to dig ditches and drive horses. The French, taking massive losses, asked to use the black soldiers and US leaders were OK with that suspecting they would die. But many survived and displayed extraordinary heroism, and some earned the equivalent of the Medal of Honor in France. When they came home, they came home to find that their efforts in France were buried and forgotten by the US media. Many of the leaders of the national media were college graduates.

Today, many people believe colleges are liberal bastions. Maybe they are. But let's not reflect our modern lens onto a completely different era that operated under completely different social orders.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

Our teaching from our parents strikes me as meaningful. I guess your mileage may vary depending on your view of academics historically. Considering that most ballplayers came from the fringes of society at the time, Cobb's background seems like it could have an impact, although your contention is that it might not be positive on this specific issue.

Naturally, this is just one data point, among many outlined by others in this thread. And potentially it is a less important data point than some of the others shared. Whether there is a correlation or connection between them I suppose is in the eye of the beholder. Is it possible that Cobb bucked the trend in spite of his father being a raging academic who must therefore have been an incorrigible racist due to his profession? It's possible that I'm misremembering, but my recollection from my readings is that Cobb's father was both an academic and believed in equality of the races. So perhaps it was Cobb's father who was himself an outlier in the world of racist academia.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by raulus

It's possible that I'm misremembering, but my recollection from my readings is that Cobb's father was both an academic and believed in equality of the races. So perhaps it was Cobb's father who was himself an outlier in the world of racist academia.

Like I said, I am not well read on Cobb. My contention was that the assumption that Cobb's father was an academic and therefore less racist had no merit in the discussion. We should not assume one's profession makes them something or does not. It's stereotyping, and this thread is trying to break through the stereotypes and fabricated narratives that have been painted about Cobb. If Cobb's father was an outlier in the world of racist academia, it was because of his personal experiences.

Let's take for example a current stereotype = Public school teachers are liberals. Are many teachers liberal? I don't know. Where I work 70% of the population is conservative. So in my dealings, I know just as many teachers who are Republican as I know Democrats. So the stereotype is wrong in my neck of the woods.

[Casey2296]

Cobb is one of my favorite players, he was actually quite a complex individual, highly intelligent, a good businessman, not well liked by his teammates or many in the league but quite generous as a human later in life.

I don't think he cared much whether he was liked by his peers, he wanted to win baseball games not popularity contests.

With a fortune acquired mostly through shrewd investments in real estate, General Motors and Coca Cola, donated $100,000 in his parents’ name for his hometown to build a 24-bed hospital, Cobb Memorial Hospital, now part of the Ty Cobb Healthcare System. He also established, in 1953, the Cobb Educational Fund, which awards scholarships to needy Georgia students bound for college, endowing it with a $100,000 donation.

Today, the Ty Cobb Healthcare System is a private self-supporting nonprofit health care organization consisting of Cobb Memorial Hospital, Cobb Memorial Outpatient Diagnostic Center, Brown Memorial Convalescent Center, Cobb Health Care Center, Home Base Health Services, Hart County Hospital, Cobb Center Apartments, Inc.

And every card needs a thread-

-

[luciobar1980]

I think Skelly nailed it with "I think he was a complicated man, probably a cold and unfriendly person, but not the monster portrayed in Al Stump's biography."

[LincolnVT]

Unquestionably one of the best small ball / contact hitters of all time. When we look at other feared hitters in the pre-war era only a few others rise to the same level in my opinion…Wagner, Jackson and Ruth. That said, Cobb had a appetite for victory and could single handedly turn games in favor of his team by being in it to win it. That came in several forms…would have loved to watch him play.

[packs]

Cobb was not a racist. He was actually a very progressive guy and not at all like the caricature that was invented for him. Here is a quote from Cobb cited in the Independent Journal in January of 1952:

"Certainly it is O.K. for them to play," he said, "I see no reason in the world why we shouldn't compete with colored athletes as long as they conduct themselves with politeness and gentility. Let me say also that no white man has the right to be less of a gentleman than a colored man, in my book that goes not only for baseball but in all walks of life.”

[Wanaselja]

There is nothing in the historical record to suggest Cobb was the racist of Stump’s novel. His father was an abolitionist as was his grandfather. Fierce competitor, yes. Fierce racist, no.

[Yoda]

Don't forget Cobb lived and played with the awful memory that his mother shot and killed his father, thinking that he was an intruder (maybe). I believe he spent his whole life, on and off the diamond, trying to show his father that he was a worthy son.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In 2010, an article by William R. Cobb (no relation to Ty) in the peer-reviewed The National Pastime, the official publication of the Society for American Baseball Research, accused Al Stump of extensive forgeries of Cobb-related baseball and personal memorabilia, including personal documents and diaries. Stump even falsely claimed to possess a shotgun used by Cobb's mother to kill his father (in a well-known 1905 incident officially ascribed to Mrs Cobb having mistaken her husband for an intruder). The shotgun later came into the hands of noted memorabilia collector Barry Halper. Despite the shotgun's notoriety, official newspaper and court documents of the time clearly show Cobb's father had been killed with a pistol. The article, and later expanded book,[5] further accused Stump of numerous false statements about Cobb, not only during and immediately after their 1961 collaboration, but also in Stump's later years, most of which were sensationalist in nature and intended to cast Cobb in an unflattering light.[1] Cobb's peer-reviewed research indicates that all of Stump's works (print and memorabilia) surrounding Ty Cobb are, at the very best, called into question and, at worst, "should be dismiss[ed] out of hand as untrue".[1]

[Touch'EmAll]

From what I understand, history has been rough on Cobb.

His mom shot his dad when he was 18.

Yes, he could be nasty on the diamond during his playing days. And the reputation followed him through life.

He gave money to needy retired ballplayers. He funded a new hospital. He established a Foundation to assist deserving residents of Georgia who needed financial assistance for college educations.

Late in life, Cobb commented that if he had his life to live over again, "I would have done things a little different... I would have had more friends."

[LEHR]

The best book I've read yet on Cobb and written by his grandson. Highly recommended to anyone who has a negative opinion of Ty Cobb.

[G1911]

Stumps book might be the actual worst non-fiction volume I have ever read. Not only is it wrong and a load of garbage, the author just completely made it all up himself. It’s not poor sourcing, or a hot take that ruins it, but the very direct and intentional lies by the scumbag who wrote it.

Too much is made of how Cobb might fit into current political correctness, and not enough about the actual assault and batteries he did commit.

I am hard pressed to think of a non political figure who has been smeared by so many lies after his life as Cobb has.

Best player of his time. Possibly the second greatest hitter ever. He has a legitimate case for it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Stumps book might be the actual worst non-fiction volume I have ever read. Not only is it wrong and a load of garbage, the author just completely made it all up himself. It’s not poor sourcing, or a hot take that ruins it, but the very direct and intentional lies by the scumbag who wrote it.

Too much is made of how Cobb might fit into current political correctness, and not enough about the actual assault and batteries he did commit.

I am hard pressed to think of a non political figure who has been smeared by so many lies after his life as Cobb has.

Best player of his time. Possibly the second greatest hitter ever. He has a legitimate case for it.

Richard Ben Cramer really trashed DiMaggio, seemingly unfairly, in HIS book.

[Exhibitman]

From the interviews with his contemporaries that I've read it sounds like he was more misanthrope than anything else.

[docpatlv]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Cobb is one of my favorite players, he was actually quite a complex individual, highly intelligent, a good businessman, not well liked by his teammates or many in the league but quite generous as a human later in life.

I don't think he cared much whether he was liked by his peers, he wanted to win baseball games not popularity contests.

With a fortune acquired mostly through shrewd investments in real estate, General Motors and Coca Cola, donated $100,000 in his parents’ name for his hometown to build a 24-bed hospital, Cobb Memorial Hospital, now part of the Ty Cobb Healthcare System. He also established, in 1953, the Cobb Educational Fund, which awards scholarships to needy Georgia students bound for college, endowing it with a $100,000 donation.

Today, the Ty Cobb Healthcare System is a private self-supporting nonprofit health care organization consisting of Cobb Memorial Hospital, Cobb Memorial Outpatient Diagnostic Center, Brown Memorial Convalescent Center, Cobb Health Care Center, Home Base Health Services, Hart County Hospital, Cobb Center Apartments, Inc.

And every card needs a thread-

-

Snapshot of Cobb during the groundbreaking ceremony for Cobb Memorial Hospital…

[Snowman]

I am not a fan of Ty Cobb. I think he is the epitome of a romanticized player. I believe that most of the bad things that were said of him are likely to have been at least some flavor of the truth. I also believe that he was a complex person whose heart likely softened as he aged and that he was also a product of his time and his environment. Losing his father as a teen likely didn't help.

I own zero Ty Cobb cards.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I believe that most of the bad things that were said of him are likely to have been at least some flavor of the truth.

But PWCC Is innocent. This really takes the cake

[bbcard1]

Unlike many, he understood that the world was bigger than he. A brilliant man financially, he amassed a fortune and was generous with it in both large ways and smaller ways, such as helping out former players who were down on their luck. Here's a decent article (sorry for the popups)

https://www.wealthmanagement.com/phi...philanthropist

Should you be inclined to remember Ty Cobb on this Giving Tuesday, might I suggest you give a gift to the Ty Cobb Educational Foundation:

https://tycobbfoundation.com

[byrone]

Here’s a great radio interview of Ty Cobb with Leo Cloutier of Manchester, NH in 1958.

Ty is certainly humble in the recording.

https://youtu.be/Vm1lY8UeMN4

[StraightRaceCards]

Originally Posted by byrone

Here’s a great radio interview of Ty Cobb with Leo Cloutier of Manchester, NH in 1958.

Ty is certainly humble in the recording.

https://youtu.be/Vm1lY8UeMN4

Thanks for sending this link Brian- very cool to listen to Cobb speak. Sounds like he did soften over the years, but no doubt about it the man was a competitor and fiery athlete.

I don't own this Green Cobb, but it's always been my favorite Cobb card. I was under the impression that I didn't want to own a Cobb card, but now I do!

[vansaad]

Seems like a decent thread to post Burdick's Cracker Jack Cobb, now on display at the Met.

[ClementeFanOh]

This "Hamlet" quote seems fitting- "He was a man, take him for all in all,
(we) shall not look upon his like again." INCREDIBLE player, complex
person. Glad I own one of his T206s

Trent King

[ALR-bishop]

My wife’s grandfather was the liaison between H&B and most major league ball players who used Louisville Slugger bats. That included Ruth and Cobb. He and Cobb were close friends. Cobb was one of the pallbearers when her grandfather died. He liked Cobb so much he wanted to name my wife’s dad Tyrus. But her grandmother, who did not like Cobb at all, vetoed that idea.

I guess that proves nothing other than you would expect a ball player might be nice to the guy who supplied his bats.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by LarsHoneyToast

This may be an old subject to some, but as a newer T206 guy, I had this initial impression of Cobb being a great ball player, but dirty and selfish.

Curious on everyone’s opinion here- where do you stand on his legacy as a person and ball player?

Watched a fantastic lecture from the guy who wrote on Cobb that changed my mindset. I now stand in the camp of… “Amazing player, somewhat decent guy”

Interview here:
https://youtu.be/OjbPzoboilM

Thoughts? Maybe a poll would be cool here.

Matt

That's a good lecture, but I highly recommend reading/listening to Leershen's book on Cobb.

While I do believe Stump's book to be a hackjob, after reading Leershen's book, it is also filled with non-factual assumptions to help prove the the author's point that Cobb wasn't a monster. It's also filled with great information that debunks a lot of the Stump book.

I believe the truth likely lies somewhere in-between. I don't think Cobb was a monster, but I also don't think he was a particularly great person. I believe he softened as he grew older as most of us do, but there is no doubt that he was a fierce competitor who would go to great lengths to win. He was a great player, no question, and his contemporaries back that up all day long.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

While I do believe Stump's book to be a hackjob, after reading Leershen's book, it is also filled with non-factual assumptions to help prove the the author's point that Cobb wasn't a monster. It's also filled with great information that debunks a lot of the Stump book.

Tim Hornbaker's book on Cobb is far superior. Heck, there's a book whose name escapes me that's basically dedicated to debunking the Leerhsen book.

[SAllen2556]

I think one aspect not mentioned is how Cobb became so famous at such a young age and what effect that would have had on him - or anyone.

At age 20, he won his first batting title and was the brightest young star of a sport experiencing a huge rise in popularity. He was well paid and received special treatment from his manager right from the start of his career. Basically, he had a lot of the same issues that many young, famous athletes have today when given piles of money and fame at a very young age.

My favorite Cobb:
1909 Cobb E95.jpg

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I think one aspect not mentioned is how Cobb became so famous at such a young age and what effect that would have had on him - or anyone. At age 20, he won his first batting title and was the brightest young star of a sport experiencing a huge rise in popularity. He was well paid and received special treatment from his manager right from the start of his career. Basically, he had a lot of the same issues that many young, famous athletes have today when given piles of money and fame at a very young age.

Yes, and making all the more amazing the examples of those who shared similar circumstances without succumbing to such blandishments. Walter Johnson comes to mind.

[Exhibitman]

I can see how a personality as intense and as driven as Cobb by all accounts was, would alienate a lot of people, perhaps inadvertently. It is really hard to turn off the focused aggression. You can't do it on a dime, you need to decompress. I know that from personal experience as a litigator. The secretaries at one firm used to call me "the meanest man in the office" because I was so offensive when I was 'on', and it would carry over into my interactions with them. Took me years, and a few HR complaints, to get it under control. I can see that happening with Cobb. He probably needed some down time to decompress that he did not get before having to deal with others. And weed. Works for me