Horizontal t206's

[conor912]

Anyone know how many there are off the tops of their heads? I know there are these 6 but I'm not terribly familiar with the set and don't know if I missed any.

Birmingham, Cleveland
Mullin, Detroit
Murphy, Phila Amer.
Pattee, Brooklyn
Pelty, St. Louis Amer.
Powell, St. Louis

[Mikehealer]

I believe some consider the Dunn, Baltimore a horizontal card. However the six you mentioned are the accepted ones.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

I believe some consider the Dunn, Baltimore a horizontal card. However the six you mentioned are the accepted ones.

I consider Dunn a vertical card when buying one and a horizontal one when I sell one

(Though I have never done either. I still need him)

[wazoo]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

I consider Dunn a vertical card when buying one and a horizontal one when I sell one

(Though I have never done neither. I still need him)

So true. +1

[CobbSpikedMe]

Dunn is a vertical card.

[cfc1909]

some consider Dunn horizontal but the 6 in the op are the only six horizontals in the set.

[Bocabirdman]

Yes Dunn is a Vertical card... just having a little fun.

[conor912]

Thanks. I gather from comments that the horizontals carry a premium?

[CobbSpikedMe]

I think they carry a small premium but not much. The Pattee is a 150 only subject and it's a beautiful card so it usually has a little more of a premium over the others. At least that's my observation.

AndyH

[cfc1909]

Pelty is also a 150 only

[DerekMichael]

I find the Dunn to be tricky. It sure feels like a horizontal to me. It seems like he is diving for a ball. I know I have never caught a pop up with the glove opening facing me. Maybe he is pulling an Andruw Jones basket catch?

I would be curious to hear some of the expert opinions on this one.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I believe the Shannon card is the same pose with a vertical background on it. I'm on my phone right now so I can't post a pic of it.

AndyH

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

Pelty is also a 150 only

Yes thank you. And another beautiful card.

AndyH

[Howe’s Hunter]

the six horizontal cards all have a horizon line in them. Therefore, you know which way to turn it.

[tedzan]

TED Z

[conor912]

Thanks for the scans, Ted. Beautiful.

I think these are my next project. I currently own zero T206s and would like them represented in my collection while keeping the group small and focused. I have always had a thing for horizontal cards in otherwise vertical sets.

[Jlighter]

Anyone have any information on the horizontals, like why these players were selected?

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by DerekMichael

I find the Dunn to be tricky. It sure feels like a horizontal to me. It seems like he is diving for a ball. I know I have never caught a pop up with the glove opening facing me. Maybe he is pulling an Andruw Jones basket catch?

I would be curious to hear some of the expert opinions on this one.

Looking at photos of a person diving for a ball, the player's non glove hand is bracing for the fall (instinct) not ready to help the glove as Dunn's hand is doing. Yet if you look at the willie may's basket catch (who would compare it to Andruw Jones) you can see the glove would face you and your other hand would be helping the glove accept the ball.





I do believe, however, that the source picture has been tilted slightly, as was done with the Bender (http://www.t206themonster.com/T206-Bender.html)

[ullmandds]

if you're a demented fisherman...dunn is horizontal...otherwise...he's obviously vertical!!!!

[DerekMichael]

That was a solid line of thinking on your part. Very nice.

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Looking at photos of a person diving for a ball, the player's non glove hand is bracing for the fall (instinct) not ready to help the glove as Dunn's hand is doing. Yet if you look at the willie may's basket catch (who would compare it to Andruw Jones) you can see the glove would face you and your other hand would be helping the glove accept the ball.





I do believe, however, that the source picture has been tilted slightly, as was done with the Bender (http://www.t206themonster.com/T206-Bender.html)

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by DerekMichael

I find the Dunn to be tricky. It sure feels like a horizontal to me. It seems like he is diving for a ball. I know I have never caught a pop up with the glove opening facing me. Maybe he is pulling an Andruw Jones basket catch?

I would be curious to hear some of the expert opinions on this one.

I hate to bump an old thread, but I was looking through some T206s, came across Dunn and wondered if this could have been a horizontal? I tried to search first to see if it had ever been discussed and stumbled across this thread.

From Google: When he was nine, a boxcar ran over his left arm while playing at a local railway. He was told by doctors that his arm had to be either amputated or risk death. He declined an amputation, but his arm was left crippled from above the elbow and couldn't lift the arm above his neck.

If the card is to be considered a vertical, his arms are clearly above his neck which would make no sense. Therefore, I'm of the opinion that he is diving for a ball and the card is a horizontal. I know some (maybe most) will disagree, but it is a possibility.

Thoughts?

[freakhappy]

I can see how this could sway either way, but every time I look at it, I see a horizontal picture...just doesn't sit well with me from the upright position.

And to be honest, I'm not sure how anyone could be definitive on either pose...

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

I can see how this could sway either way, but every time I look at it, I see a horizontal picture...just doesn't sit well with me from the upright position.

And to be honest, I'm not sure how anyone could be definitive on either pose...

I think of it and believe it is a a vertical pose until I see the card positioned horizontally.

Does anyone know of a picture used in the artwork?

[ullmandds]

Now there is a project for someone... Find the original photo used for the dunn
pose... Then it can be put to rest once and for all that this is a vertical card!!

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Now there is a project for someone... Find the original photo used for the dunn
pose... Then it can be put to rest once and for all that this is a vertical card!!

You don't even like 206's...stay out!!!

[GoldenAge50s]

If nothing else, go by the horizon factor in the known 6. If this card was meant to be a horizontal I believe they would have painted in a horizon! The set was put together w/ plenty of forethought.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by GoldenAge50s

If nothing else, go by the horizon factor in the known 6. If this card was meant to be a horizontal I believe they would have painted in a horizon! The set was put together w/ plenty of forethought.

Fred...I saw that post and it does make sense, but can/do we have to assume that is true? There are horizons in a lot of T206's, but there is no horizon on this card telling us that it is supposed to be horizontal or vertical. Either way, I do think the green background fits this card rather nicely...

Edited to add: I don't believe a horizon would compliment this card at all...I think the solid green background was done on purpose even if it is indeed a horizontal pose.

[GoldenAge50s]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Fred...I saw that post and it does make sense, but can/do we have to assume that is true? There are horizons in a lot of T206's, but there is no horizon on this card telling us that it is supposed to be horizontal or vertical. Either way, I do think the green background fits this card rather nicely...

No indeed, we certainly do NOT have to assume that is true! It is just my belief that because the given 6 were so beautifully done w/ horizons to remove all doubt that any other cards MEANT to be horizontal would have had an equally complimentary horizon too!

The set is so beautiful & thoughtfully done that I don't believe the artists would have missed putting a horizon on Dunn! I'm done!

[DerekMichael]

David James,

You just blew my mind ...

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by DerekMichael

David James,



You just blew my mind ...

Wow, you're easy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by GoldenAge50s

If this card was meant to be a horizontal I believe they would have painted in a horizon!

Not if he were diving for a ball though. If he were diving for a ball, perhaps all you would see is green grass...just like the green background.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I hate to bump an old thread, but I was looking through some T206s, came across Dunn and wondered if this could have been a horizontal? I tried to search first to see if it had ever been discussed and stumbled across this thread.

From Google: When he was nine, a boxcar ran over his left arm while playing at a local railway. He was told by doctors that his arm had to be either amputated or risk death. He declined an amputation, but his arm was left crippled from above the elbow and couldn't lift the arm above his neck.

If the card is to be considered a vertical, his arms are clearly above his neck which would make no sense. Therefore, I'm of the opinion that he is diving for a ball and the card is a horizontal. I know some (maybe most) will disagree, but it is a possibility.

Thoughts?

I know it has been mentioned in other threads about this but I think the picture is diagonal. I believe picture may have been treated the same way the bender from t206themonster.com.




So if you take what we know about the Bender tree picture and apply to how we know Mays did his basket catch you can see that his arms would be more out in front of him and not over his head as they appear on the card.

[MVSNYC]

I do not think the Dunn was designed to be horizontal. if he were diving for the ball, his eyes would be looking higher to spot the ball and his head would be cocked a little higher too. also, as mentioned above, if it were truly meant to be a horizontal card, the artists would have added a horizon line to make it very clear to the viewer that it is in fact a horizontal card...not the case.

I will say this, if viewed vertically, his body angle is a little weird for an overhead catch...BUT, for reasons i listed above, i will still say it is not meant to be a horizontal card.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

I will say this, if viewed vertically, his body angle is a little weird for an overhead catch...BUT, for reasons i listed above, i will still say it is not meant to be a horizontal card.

This strange angle of the body is explained by my hypothosis in my post.

[freakhappy]

Looks like he's diving for a ball. The way his eyes are positioned and the position of his body...in the corner of the card. If he was meant to be vertical, I think it was poorly done.



I can't speak for everyone, but when you first picked up this card, tell me you didn't try to position it horizontally...that was my first reaction and to this day when I see the card, I always want to flip it sideways.



And if this card wasn't already labeled as a vertical pose, would you still hold your current stance...

[ullmandds]

I never...ever thought this card/pose was intended to be a horizontal one...ever! Until the question was raised on here years ago. I appreciate the tenacity...but it's meant to be vertical!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

I can't speak for everyone, but when you first picked up this card, tell me you didn't try to position it horizontally...that was my first reaction and to this day when I see the card, I always want to flip it sideways.

Yeah, me too.

If you look on eBay, there are a few that are displayed horizontally, so we're not the only ones who think so.

[wazoo]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Looks like he's diving for a ball. The way his eyes are positioned and the position of his body...in the corner or the card. If he was meant to be vertical, I think it was poorly done.

I can't speak for everyone, but when you first picked up this card, tell me you didn't try to position it horizontally...that was my first reaction and to this day when I see the card, I always want to flip it sideways.

And if this card wasn't already labeled as a vertical pose, would you still hold your current stance...

I'm with you again Mike. I totally agree. I always thought it was a horizontal!

Now I mean, Dunn could be hunched over, maybe? I don't know, but either way. ..

[wazoo]

Or you could think of Dunn catching a fly ball, bending backwards a little. I mean, the position of the glove would probably not be correct, but maybe that was the way he caught fly balls?

[Bpm0014]

I believe it to be definitely horizontal. Almost like he is sprinting in and catching a short fly ball or pop up. He is using two hands because all of the players at that time had to use two hands. The gloves back then didnt have the baskets or webs that they do today. Thus, he is running in and diving to catch a short fly ball or pop up. I think. Very interesting!

[veloce]

Looks vertical to me. It would make sense that the original picture would have him catching a pop up since Dunn's a pitcher and he's probably not diving for many fly balls.

As for the arm injury idea... I doubt he could stretch out like that if he couldn't lift his arm over his head.

Edit: Actually I guess he was no longer pitching in those years... still an infielder is more likely to be catching pop ups.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by veloce

Edit: Actually I guess he was no longer pitching in those years... still an infielder is more likely to be catching pop ups.

Although he mostly played the infield, he did play the outfield in the 1902 & 1904 (his last) seasons.

[veloce]

Presumably the original picture would date to his active days with Baltimore to be relatively current with the set. Of course, I don't know what position he played those years.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Although he mostly played the infield, he did play the outfield in the 1902 & 1904 (his last) seasons.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by wazoo

the position of the glove would probably not be correct

Not sure the artists always got glove positioning correct. Look at Sleepy Bill Burns with his glove on the wrong hand

The card does look cool as a horizontal but it always has been and always will be a vertical until someone finds the original photo and proves otherwise.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I found this old thread (poll) while actually trying to find more information on Google.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=116396

It's a little over 4 years old and I wonder if the consensus would still be the same today? Anybody want to start a new poll with only horizontal or vetical as being the only two choices (not the other three options in the original poll)?

[Bpm0014]

In addition to pitching, he also played right field and shortstop.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by wazoo

Or you could think of Dunn catching a fly ball, bending backwards a little. I mean, the position of the glove would probably not be correct, but maybe that was the way he caught fly balls?

Seems like his glove position is wrong for a fly ball. The ball would hit the heel and then hit him in the face. Not that I know from experience ......

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

Seems like his glove position is wrong for a fly ball.

Exactly. I spent a lot of time looking at Google images.

If you Google images of "catching fly ball" they all have one thing in common - the glove faces out (away from their body), not as the Dunn card shows where the glove is faacing in. That would not be the correct position to catch a fly ball.

However, if you Google images of "diving for catch" it shows images of players with the glove facing up or down, so he could definitley be diving for a catch, glove facing up.

[bn2cardz]

It seems like everyone wants to overlook the possibility of it being a diagonal representation of the original picture.

I have been wondering if there has been a single picture of a diving catch prior to the web being put on the glove? I haven't seen one (that is not saying much as I am young and don't collect vintage photos). I have seen posed images on Old Judge, but those have always seemed more of sliding for a fast ground ball. Too me it seems that without the web of the glove a dive for a ball would not be the smarter move as I would assume the impact of the ground would knock the ball loose more times than not. Especially if you aren't going to brace for the fall as you would have to assume Dunn is not doing if you want to believe this is horizontal.

Again. I am not saying they didn't dive but I haven't seen evidence that they did.

[slipk1068]

Fly ball, He is setting up to make a basket catch. With soft hands, he is going to lower them and give with the ball. In the old days, basket catches were WAY more popular than they are today. This has always been my opinion.