Opinions on Sholess Joe...

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Posted By: ty_cobb

Comic Keys has a PRO E90 Shoeless Joe up on ebay,
opinions on the card anyone? The PRO holder doesn't
assure me too much.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

I didn't spot the one auction that blue-manitou talks about here, but I did find this one...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1848741170

This one is another P.O.S. piece of paper "graded" by AAA. eBay username MediumRareCollectibles.

Funny, in about 100 Feedbacks, he has one negative already. Guess what the negative feedback asks? "Are you and LibertyForAll the same person?"

Go figure. What a scam...

PS: Hey Julie...the page on GeoCities that has the smiley faces is gone (I was gonna put the vomiting guy here). Any idea where it is?

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Posted By: ty_cobb

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1848742167

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Posted By: Elliot

The issues with this card are similiar to the '52 Mantle that was discussed ad infinitum on this forum. Although, the Jax card does not have the storied history of the Mantle card, being that it is in a PRO holder there are strong suspicions that the card has been altered in one or more ways. Additionaly, given the seller's comments on this board, one would believe that the card has a very high reserve, and will not be sold on eBay. One can only surmise that the auction is being run for some sort of valuation purposes.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

I left a comment on here about the card, PRO Holder, etc. What happened? Is there a system problem? I don't think I wrote anything that needed editing...

-dan

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Posted By: leon

I agree with your comments however this is a good place to air concerns about cards that are being auctioned. It doesn't matter who, or what, but it does matter that we have a place we can discus these things. This is the same seller (Dr.Koos) but a different card and potentially a different story. Your assumptions are just that...assumptions.....Seems like sometimes we disagree a little on what or when to edit but my vote would be not to edit stuff that is in a civilized debate. The last time I asked you to edit, it looked to me like someone was inciting a fight with no worthwhile cause.... To me this particular auction is different than the Mantle one as the Mantle one had even better provenance....although this has good provenance also......and it is most likely tainted ala the PRO crap holder. There could be something rotten in the state of Denmark though ......best regards...

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I am interested in knowing what that card is. I have heard much speculation that it is a reprint, and I don't need to hear more of that, because it wouldn't add to anything that has already been said. If anyone knows the real story on this, from having seen the card or from having credible information about the provenance of the card, I'd love to hear it.

bruce

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Posted By: James

... could be the same person/company.

We all know that LibertyForAll is based out of Hawaii. Well I emailed mediumrarecollectables and asked a question about there auctions. Did some checking from the reply (from David T. -- keeping last name private) and the ISP from the originating email was "hawaii.rr.com". Just like LibertyForAll.

Just thought I would let everyone know.

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Posted By: David

My working assumption had long been that they are directly or closely related. And, if not, a AAA card is a AAA card no matter who is selling it (the term 'cards' being use loosely here, of course).

My other working assumption is that it is more than likely that the people who just bought from Shop at Home are the ones winning all those AAA cards.

While I'm all for the protection of newbies, I think for some people there is no hope. There are people in this world who, after watching a t.v. infomertial, buy a pill expecting to loose 70 pounds in three days without dieting or exercize. There are people who actually think that if they wear that AAA powered abdominizer while eating potato chips on the couch that they will turn from John Candy into Claude Van Damme. And there are people who, even with a full discription ('1 milimiter X 1 milimeter butt-ugly Joe Jackson cutout with partial article on the back'), will still bid $400. As Voltaire said, "Common sense isn't common."

In the end and assuming resonable inteligence, a collector's level of knowledge is he/her choice and responsibility.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

As you recall, one of the people who responded to me from eBay last month had told me that the LibertyForAll guy is a part (or whole) owner of AAA. I think the AAA/Liberty dude's name is Hoff or Huff or something like that. Anyway, he said that when he (the eBayer) telephoned AAA, he was able to get that particular person (Hoff? I don't recall his name exactly) there in the AAA office. So, it's no surprise that AAA is likely slabbing its own garbage and selling it on eBay under several usernames, including MediumRareCrap, etc.

If the e-mails come from the smae ISP, in Hawaii, then it adds up. PRO will probably buy them out eventually in a stock merger, and emerge as the crap-slabbing giant of the collectible industry.

If this Shoeless Joe card was worth a dime, it wouldn't be in a PRO Holder. At least go to PSA, MINT, SGC or SCD. Criminy...get real.

I still want to see more of RunScott's home-made slabbing examples on eBay. That one that he did had me laughing my butt off for the rest of the day!!

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Posted By: David

I also want to see more of Scott's efforts. I support them fully and think they do their job to educate the newbies. If a few more of us did stuff like that, I think the sell prices would drop AAA quickly.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

nonsense too. Under 250X magnification of just about the best scientific, computer automated scanning optical system and lighting that money can buy, the paper fibre patterns, the ink dot/matrix patterns and all the fine detail are IDENTCAL when this Jax card is directly compared to other VINTAGE E90-1 examples, both front and back. There is no evidence of splicing, trimming, or bleaching as well. AND like the Mantle, the card measures FULLY to catalog measurement specs with NO EVIDENCE of a stretch and a trim to maintain size, because the size of the portraiture is IDENTICAL across MULTIPLE, random, planes of it's dimensions when it was compared to a control E90-1 Jax in G/VG that I believe was later slabbed a 2 or 3 by PSA. This card is, as I bought it...already Pro slabbed and has NEVER appeared anywhere at auction described as a restored card. It's only sin is that it resides in a Pro Holder. A distinct factor in it's NOT being, or deserving to be a $30,000 card. I'm not defending Pro, just mentioning that this card does not have the Mantle's checkered "Mastro Auction described as restored past". That information, from the Mastro Auction, is the sole piece of concrete evidence casting doubt on the Mantle's state (and even there, it STILL hasn't been ascertained exactly WHAT was done, which NOW that a current value has been determined, I imagine will be the next step undertaken). As far as I know, there isn't solid evidence to back the Jax being restored other than the assumption that "all cards in Pro holders are fakes", which is akin to "all apples are BAD". Even though the CHANCES FAVOR an Expensive Vintage Pro encapsulated card being ALTERED (not necessarily fake or more properly in the case of Liberty for All (AAA, NASA)... dreamed up cards cut from magazine pictures and xeroxed) the ASSUMPTION that EVERY card is, in every case is inconclusive evidence. All someone would have to do to dispute your theorey is to turn up just ONE card that was slabbed at sometime by Pro that PSA or SGC WOULD pass, and your whole argument would sail right out the window.

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Posted By: David

It's not possible to determine that a card has not been altered without removing it from its holder.

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Posted By: David

As a practice, I think trying to authenticate an item held between sheets of plastic is inherently dubious (which is one reason why I rarely buy cards graded by anyone). However, with porpor microscopy techniques a quick-and-dirty examination can be done, as the E90-1 cards use a unique form of colored (not color)chromolithography.

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Posted By: TBob

One way of determining if the Jackson is a reprint or reproduction is to do exactly what Koos did, measure the length, width and area of the "picture area." We all know that the E90-1s are notorious for different lengths and widths when you count the borders but they should match identically when you measure the area of the picture. I am aware of two different E90-1 reprint sets floating around, one is easily discernible because of color and gloss. The other is from the infamous "20" set, so called because all the reprint cards in that set were produced with the tiny "20" on the back upper left. Often you will see reprints with a tiny amount of paper damage or "scuff" in that area where it has been removed. The Speaker I bought in an auction on line (and returned) is more ingenious but has the same problem the glossy reprints do, smaller picture area. So we now know there are 3 E90-1 reprint groups floating around out there. This doesn't preclude the possibility of a scanned or otherwie reproduced homemade card.
Remember when the hobby was just a hobby? Sigh....

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Nice solid lavender background, and that furshluniner red smear which i suppose was supposed to cover his lips, but usually looks like a Hitler mustache, lets you see through it to the drawing beneath. Card appears to be the right size, and the corners are (ouch!) sharp.

Obviously, it would be worth Comic-Keys while to remove the card from the PRO holder, and submit it to SGC.

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Posted By: Cy

Hello card collecting fans,

Maybe it is a legit card. Maybe it isn't. I have my thoughts, but I won't go there. I believe the question to ask is, "Does comic-keys have any intention of selling this card even if someone truly wants it?" Or is it another frivolous(sp?) auction where the good doctor makes everyone bidding on the card a fool, not just the high bidder, by not having any intention of selling the card in the first place as he did with the Mantool? (Before my detractors think I am illitorit, I misspelled Mantle on porpoise).

Cy

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...going to impede high quality magnification optics from discerning that every printing, ink, plate, and paper characteristic on this Jax card (that is, the printing/material fingerprint, the characteristics fine details) are IDENTICAL to any other E90-1 card it is compared to. I'm speaking of a different issue altogether other than ALTERATION. I am familiar with MANY types of restorations/alterations done on cards, due to the instructive efforts of Wile E. the amazing Card Coyote, but not ALL of the procedures possible. Based on MICRO-level evidence, the card is NOT a reprint or bootleg, it is unmistakeably a VINTAGE E90-1 card, and if there IS alteration, I am unable to identify the type of work that was performed, WITH magnification equipment OR the naked eye.

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Posted By: David

I've not seen the card in person and I'm not suggesting it is a reprint or counterfeit. However, the mere fact that you put the card under painstaking 250X microscopic examinations, suggests your own level of confidence in PRO slabbed cards.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that if you were confident the card was completely legitimate that the card would not be in a PRO holder. If you thought PSA or SGC would give it the same grade, the card would be in a PSA or SGC holder right now if only so it would sell at a higher price.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

Well, if you read Dr. Koos earlier paragraph response, he says essentially what we needed to hear to finally be able to fully doubt the cards authenticity. Here's a cut-and-paste from his posting above:

This card is, as I bought it...already Pro slabbed and has NEVER appeared anywhere at auction described as a restored card. It's only sin is that it resides in a Pro Holder. A distinct factor in it's NOT being, or deserving to be a $30,000 card.


My point is this. If this card was not a useless piece of crap-cardboard waste-of-money, Dr. Koos would have freed this valuable $30,000 potential from its hideous PRO-tomb, and he would have had this beautiful piece of historic memorabilia properly slabbed and graded by PSA or MINT or SGC or SCD or anyone else that has a good (not ridiculous) reputation. He says himself, above, "...it's only sin is that it resides in a Pro Holder". THEN GET IT OUT, FOR GOD'S SAKE! Do the math. One week's turnaroud time and $30 in grading and shipping fees to boost the value of this card to $30K, and to finally erase any question of its authenticity. Am I missing somenthing?? I'm not a PhD or an MD, so I don't have the Dr. mantra before my name to try and lend credibility to myself, but this seems like an EASY FIX... Ya think?

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...to be the "Doctor mantra in front of my name for added credibility", as you so ineptly continue to point out. This fixation does nothing to support your claim that the card is a FAKE, which it ISN'T, anymore than constantly reminding us that you're a cop lends credence to your arguments. Do you know the difference between FAKE and REAL but possibly altered? Take for example, the infamous .22 automatic "drop gun" (if you happen to shoot FIRST and ask questions LATER), would you consider that the serial number filed off makes it ALTERED or FAKE? The correct answer is ALTERED. Even though altered, the gun is still a REAL gun and operational as one and NOT a FAKE, although the reason behind dropping it in the "right" place at the "right" time IS a FAKE one. Understand? And, isn't your Ebay handle "bike_cop"...why did you pick THAT handle, for the "mantra" of added credibility? Lastly, Mathewson this, Mathewson that, why not just plain old Dan? or Dan M.? More mantras and added credibility? PUH-LEASE!!! Tell your "mantra & credibility" arguments and evidence to someone that hasn't got you figured out down to the marrow.

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Posted By: *****

....

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

Like I said in another thread, questionable people when cornered (and with little or no defense) resort to name-calling, and so on...


In reply:

1. The word fake, when written by me in this thread (toward the top, reply #1), was in reference to the AAA rubbish cut out of a magazine or whatever. Even the link to that AAA auction is there in that reply. I didn't refer to your card specifically as a fake. I think I actually said that it (like most others in PRO holders) was "a useless piece of crap-cardboard waste-of-money". But, I didn't say 'fake" in reference to your card here.

2. Having clarified that, I can (and will) use the word fake to describe anything that I see which is being misrepresented as something authentic, or simply, something it is not. False, fake, fraud, misrepresented = worthless (unless you find someone crazy enough to buy a PRO-slabbed card). Still, the seller would be misrepresenting what it really is. For more clarification, go to dictionary.com. After you've looked up the word "relevance", go next to the word "fake" and look at what it says:
fake 1: something false; not what it seems to be [syn: sham] 2: one that is not authentic or genuine; a sham, a fraud...
So, until "koos" becomes the leading name in dictionaries beyond the recognition given to Merriam-Webster and American Heritage, I'll hang my hat on their definitions...

3. My biggest problem with the card is NOT because the word Doctor appears in front of your name. Additionally, I have not "continued to point that out". I mentioned your doctor mantra only once. Try not to exaggerate. My biggest problem with the card clearly is that it is slabbed in a crap PRO holder, and PRO is known to slab crap cards (fakes...see above for definition of fake), cards that have been trimmed and altered, and they have also slabbed reprints saying they were the "real McCoy". That is clearly my "Biggest Problem", as anyone with a minimum of junior-high school reading comprehension skills would distill from reading my more recent entry on this thread.

4. I put Dan Mathewson in the "name" section of my entries, because (don't get lost here with this concept) it is my name. And, that is what the line asks for. Julie Vognar, Bruce Moreland, Scott Forrest (sometimes...LOL), Keith O'Leary, Doug Allen and many others put their full names on here. James Walker even includes the "Jr" at the end of his name. Is this all ok with you, or should everyone on Netwerk 54 be checking with you about how much of their name to put in the "name" field?

5. To answer your question about why I used the "bike_cop" eBay username...my original handle on eBay is "bike_cop" because that was my profession at the time. Originally, I used to buy bicycle parts and mtn bikes on eBay and on the Internet, and the username elicited many an interesting conversation about urban (street) bicycling (as opposed to country/terrain bicycling) with sellers and other bidders. It made sense to me at the time, sorry you cannot grasp that. But, I have often thought of creating a new one to more reflect my baseball collecting, which I am more interested in now. Perhaps I should check with you first, before selecting my new eBay username AND before using my full names in some instances? Again, I'm wondering why this is even relevant, but, oh well...

6. You see, Dr. Koos, I used primarily your own words from an earlier entry of yours (cut and pasted exactly, not twisted and misstated as you have done with my own words) to prove the point which everyone has been wondering here. Unfortunately, I think that frustrated you to a degree that you needed to make a series of ridiculous, unrelated comments about me, the use of my name, my eBay username, and whatever else you blathered on about. And, I think I'm almost feeling apologetic for hitting your achilles heel like that. Using your own words, I brought about the question to illustrate that even you yourself seem to think that it is the PRO Holder devaluing the card...so, it BEGS the question: Why wouldn't any reasonably prudent and well-informed collector invest the $30 to have it re-graded and slabbed by a well-reputed dealer, rather than carry on in this debate? Also, why not spend that thirty-bucks and increase the cards value by thousands if it is, in fact, AUTHENTIC?

You said all of this yourself, I only highlighted what you said. You can continue to call me names all you want, and talk about all the fringe stuff regarding my name and username, etc, ad nauseum, all you like...that is another well-known attribute of the "shill" -- to distract people with randomness in hopes that it "keeps their eyes off the ball" so to speak. But, what has happened here is pretty clear.

As you mount your own defense again, Dr. Koos, continue on with another volley of insults to maintain denial and avoidance. My reputation can handle it.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Well Said! You do Christy proud. be well brian

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

..to belabor an issue so insignificant to the card itself, "MY HIDING BEHIND THE MANTRA OF THE WORD DR. IN MY POSTS TO DECEPTIVELY CREATE AN AIR OF RESPECTABILITY", as to be meaningless to ANY Pro discourse, THAT person himself goes out of his way to make it known that he's a cop, ex-cop, or toy-cop (whatever) and to work the name Mathewson into almost every paragraph of his textural existance, and then objects when I call his attention to the fact that HE'S GUILTY OF THE VERY THING HE'S ACCUSING ME OF. The funniest thing is his accusing me of becoming frustrated while HE HIMSELF was frustrated enough to waste 3 hours of his time constructing the longest and most unnecessarily tedious post of his life! Tell Dan that not only is he a type 1A subject for the power of suggestion (VERY easily lead), but he's charmingly predictable also! You might also tell him that his PSA M116 SL Mathewson that he won 11 days ago is DEFINITELY TRIMMED, both top AND bottom, but then, what do I know about anything, right?

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

... %$**@&? $&)!+>/, and furthermore, #@*&!!-=^$~ the &#$%^@)< $@(! And another thing.. &@@/"*%#!` in your *##&^$ AND ^##@%(?< IT YOU $_?/!~*!!!! And I MEAN it!

Edited by Comic-Keys at 9:31PM EST

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Posted By: Elliot

LOL

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

let it go dan,youre not gonna get the answer to the only question you want answered so for your own good dont ask anymore. If he doesnt want to tell you why he doesnt get it regraded then thats his business,everyone has asked him in different forms or one another and he hasnt answered so why keep asking him. Its his card,let him do what he wants,just let people you know who might be interested in the card that there are questions surrounding,whether they are unproven or not.

disclaimer: im not taking sides in this,just trying to save some people some annoyance in their lives

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

I agree that it appears the answer is not forthcoming. Just box after box of random anger and irrelevant ranting, which appears to be his trademark.

Best. -dan

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...that the M-116 Blue Background Matty I bought is, in his own, exact words from above: "...You might also tell him that his PSA M116 SL Mathewson that he won 11 days ago is DEFINITELY TRIMMED, both top AND bottom..."

I have alerted the seller, now, as to the direct, legal allegation that Dr. Richard Koos has made in writing, on a public bulletin board. I am anxious now to see the seller's response, and I am forwarding this thread to him.

-dan

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...you've ever made on this Board still present, and he will be notifying the sellers of every item you have ever called FAKE, altered, no good, phoney, etc. I will personally back ANY legal action that they wish to take against you if they feel that you in any way have impeded or interfered with their auctions. Let's all be cock-sure that if we question ANY seller's card from now on, that we have irrefutable proof of our claims. I predict a VERY DIFFERENT Board from now on! I'll be watching...and waiting..for ANY comment even remotely negative about any seller's card.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

More threats! <laugh my butt off> And, now we have a personal lawyer retained to review and record Bulletin Board postings! Does he do pedicures, too?

Fire away. All of your cards which I commented on were cards that YOU DEFILED YOURSELF in writing, on this board...I used your own words in each case. Did you already forget (again) what you have written on this board, or is this more threats/smokescreen? Do I need to cut-and-paste more of your rhetoric to refresh your memory?

Sue me for repreating everything you put in writing. Then, go take your medication and pay your lawyer fees. Judge Wapner wouldn't even try this one...

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Posted By: TBob

<<<<<I predict a VERY DIFFERENT Board from now on! I'll be watching...and waiting..for ANY comment even remotely negative about any seller's card. >>>>>

Lighten up, Francis....

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

I'm truly interested in strange manifestations of the genus HomoSapiens,..

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

..I'm under siege by the "Big SHAME", two chicken heads, 1 dictator, and a malcontent.

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Posted By: Elliot

I sure hope I'm the dictator, but I've always thought of this as a benevolent dictatorship.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...the Mantle Auction to be removed from Ebay within 24 hours, OR ELSE.....".

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

When will you inform these guys that there is NO jurisdiction thaT WILL DO ANYTHING ABOUT THIS AS THERE IS NO STATE INTERESTING IN HIRING A COLLECTIBLES EXPERT TO EXAMINE AND DETERMINE THE DEGREE AND VALIDITY OF FRAUD CASES CONCERNING AUCTIONS!!! The state of California used to have one until they received over 15,000 complaints! They shut down the investigative office due to not enough funds or man power to investigate.......I know,I sued a few of your favorite clown auctioneers for trying to pull fast ones on me! Koos,knows this also to be true as he attempted to implicate ( with good reason ) Moser and Von Dole ( who he explained he got this stuff from* ).
And come on guys........look at some of the blatant scam artists. Ever call the police to investigate the alleged felony of bouncing checks??? Unless the dollar amount in in the 50k plus range you will wait on a long line for a DA to even consider if you have a case!
They will inform you that it is a civil matter in the end! Come on Bob,tell em like it is with this issue!!!

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...City police and State Agencies are way different regarding Fraud and Internet Fraud.

You'll probably find that most State Attorneys General are pursuing Internet Fraud quite aggressively. For example, if you go to the Washington State AG Website, you'll see that. They even have a staff of investigators that goes after spammers who misrepresent their products just to get people to open their e-mails (which is only a misdemeanor). I think they just fine the hell outta the illegal Spammers to pay for their staff (which is fine with me).

Washington will actively and aggressively go after fraudulent persons on the Net. And they'll take either advocacy focus (suspect in Washington, or victim in Washington) because the law sees the crime as being committed at both points (just like telephone harassment/threats, etc.)

You are right, though, about local police. They usually don't have the staff/numbers to go after all the check fraud out there. It's like shoplifting. It's so rampant, that most large stores have to hire their own security people to charge shoplifters, and leave the police out of it, unless it's a felony dollar amount.

But, the days are numbered for people who deliberately defraud people on the Net, either through eBay or other venues. It'll be poetic justice to see some people's names in the headlines for that...