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#1
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: Dave Hornish
I seem to be in an SCD frame of mind this week. There is an auction ad for the Steve Myland collection in the current issue and one of offered items is a 1909 Honus Wagner Cigar label (actually three different ones). The round and rectangular versions have Honus' likeness on them and it resembles the famous Carl Horner image that was the basis for so many photos of Wagner. I'm sure many of you have seen these before. |
#2
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: boxingcardman
I always theorized that he refused the offer to use his likeness for financial reasons but couched it in other terms so as to not appear to be greedy. Being crass about publicity rights wasn't really in vogue until a generation later. |
#3
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
DAVE |
#4
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: peter chao
Guys, |
#5
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: Mark L
As I understand it, the Wagner family explained that he objected to the card because he did not want kids buying cigarettes to get his picture. This claim is consistent with a contemporary article cited in Scott Reader’s erudite work on the t206: There is Oct. 12, 1912 Sporting News article which says that Wagner asked the ATC to withdraw the card because “he did not care to have his picture in a package of cigarettes." There is a further anecdote floating around that that Wagner reimbursed Pirate secretary John Gruber ten bucks for the money that Gruber had made (but subsequently lost) selling Wagner’s photo to the ATC. I’ve heard that Gruber framed the check. (don't know why he would). Anyway, I don’t see anything in this general account that is manifestly untenable. What evidence do we have against it? It is true that Wagner smoked cigars. Maybe he was even willing to put his picture on a cigar band. Of course, he chewed tobacco. But the account given out by the Wagner family doesn’t claim that he was anti-tobacco but only that he didn’t like seeing kids chasing baseball cards in every pack of Piedmonts. And since he was the biggest star in baseball from 1909-11, he might have imagined that kids were buying packs for his card in particular. If Wagner were famous for being a miser or a shrewd businessman, I would find the cynicism a little more reasonable. But c’mon, he was famous for being friendly with kids. Doesn’t someone say in Glory of Their Times that after a Pirate game Wagner could be sometimes be found playing baseball with the neighborhood kids? Anyway, I'd like to see the incriminating evidence, the smoking gun, as it were, that indicates that the old story is unlikely. |
#6
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: Corey R. Shanus
I think Mark L says it very well, and I agree. Furthermore, if the reason he doesn't appear in T-card issues is because he wasn't offered enough money, one would think it plausible he would have had the same problem with candy card issuers, yet he appears in E-card issues. Bottom line is I guess we'll never know for sure, but if I was a betting man I would put my money on the theory that he simply didn't want his image to promote children to smoke. |
#7
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: JimB
I agree with Mark and Corey. |
#8
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: bob beyerle
Wagner Did NOT want to promote tobacco use to kids period. Money was no issue. The amounts talked about are negligible to what he gave away on a regular basis. I drink beer but that doesn't mean I want my image used to promote alcohol use to kids. Why all the Wagner E cards? Did the candy companies have more cash to give the "greedy" Wagner? People who think it was a money issue are projecting their own greed and selfishness on one of the most selfless superstars in American Sports history. Go read a few books before stating your guesses and opinions. |
#9
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: Dave Hornish
Thanks Ted Z, I indeed read the Plank thread when it was running and found it very informative. I guess I've been mulling it ever since. I find Wagner and Plank in T206 to be curiouser and curiouser and a couple of others less so but still interesting. The mystery part is great: possible deception on the non Sweet Cap poses for Plank and Wagner violates the primacy of Piedmont theory, which I subscribe to (as do the St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara, of course). Could Plank have replaced Wagner on whatever sheet Honus was originally on before being pulled as well? Why did this even matter to the ATC and American Litho? Great stuff, these questions. |
#10
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: MVSNYC
"The mystery part is great: possible deception on the non Sweet Cap poses for Plank and Wagner violates the primacy of Piedmont theory, which I subscribe to (as do the St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara, of course)." |
#11
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: Dave Hornish
Re "The mystery part is great: possible deception on the non Sweet Cap poses for Plank and Wagner violates the primacy of Piedmont theory, which I subscribe to (as do the St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara, of course)." |
#12
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: MVSNYC
thanks dave, that helps clarify that some more...this is a very interesting topic. i do own both the demmitt & o'hara cards, and am also fascinated with the whole "polar bear only" issue. let's try to keep this thread going. |
#13
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: dennis
ok lets hear what others think. i always wondered why there is no difinitive answer for the card being (pulled) (since wagner lived to almost 1956) why is there no quotes from him about the t206. the card was i believe famous even back then? and the second question is why is honus brother nicknamed butts? as in cigarette butts? |
#14
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: Mike
Maybe the reason the Demmitt and O'Hara cards where issued only by Polar Bear is because the factory form which they where issued was very close to St. Louis. Thus, they wanted to contiue to feature St. Louis players instead of the update New York versions. Just a possibility... |
#15
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: Mark L
I'd like to know more about when the general public aware of the rarity of the Wagner card. It was known to be rare among collectors when I started collecting more than thirty years ago but when did real people pay attention? |
#16
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: davidcycleback
The Wagner was singled out and priced as one of the key baseball card rarities as far back as the 1930s. So it's gotten special hobby attention for a long time. Of course in 1935, a baseball card being priced as a key rarity means it cost a quarter. |
#17
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: dennis
1935, a quarter was a quarter back then! a weeks wage. also wagner was a big star(perhaps the biggest) and only 1 pose, while all the other big names have at least 2. if card was pulled for pic rites there would be a different pose or 2.too bad they didn't put out a couple more poses asap. so i guess he either wanted more money or objected to cigs. but ok for cigars and chew...kinda strange imo |
#18
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: davidcycleback
I'm going to tell my grandkids, "Back in my day you could get a PSA8 Wagner for under $2 million." And the grandkids will say, "No way. Did you have electricity back then?" |
#19
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: dennis
mark l i guess it would be when gretsky bought the card in the late 80's. |
#20
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: Mark L
If I recall, my late edition American Card Catalog lists the Wagner at $50. I wonder when that was the going rate. I know that by the early 70's people were offering as much as five thousand for one. |
#21
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: Dave Hornish
Interestingly, someone just posted a T213-2 of Demmitt in the Pickup Thread (sorry to hijack your scan James!). |
#22
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
I have some info on Demmitt and O'Hara and will soon post it separately. |
#23
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
RE:.....your post 3/17 7:28 AM..... |
#24
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: Dave Hornish
TED Z.... |
#25
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T206 Wagner-Theory
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
Just a reminder from the Thread which I first posed the "Piedmont 1st" theory....The Magie and Doyle errors |
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