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  #1  
Old 11-22-2020, 02:27 PM
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Default So, what is the norm now?

Collectors expose high priced card in auction that has been apparently been trimmed. Evidence put forward.

What do we expect an ethical AH should properly do?

A. Leave card up, let bidders consider the disclosure of new information as they see fit

B. Leave card up, but modify description going forward with evidence of alteration and allow bidders to retract bids if they desire

C. Pull card

D. Pull card and inform consignor that he is banned from consigning to future auctions

This seems to be coming up again and again. As a hobby, where do we stand? Or is their another obvious option I am missing. I don't think this a simple question.

Last edited by Snapolit1; 11-22-2020 at 02:30 PM.
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  #2  
Old 11-22-2020, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
Collectors expose high priced card in auction that has been apparently been trimmed. Evidence put forward.

What do we expect an ethical AH should properly do?

A. Leave card up, let bidders consider the disclosure of new information as they see fit

B. Leave card up, but modify description going forward with evidence of alteration and allow bidders to retract bids if they desire

C. Pull card

D. Pull card and inform consignor that he is banned from consigning to future auctions

This seems to be coming up again and again. As a hobby, where do we stand? Or is their another obvious option I am missing. I don't think this a simple question.
B at the very least
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  #3  
Old 11-22-2020, 02:33 PM
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C
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  #4  
Old 11-22-2020, 02:34 PM
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Take cards out of circulation by forcing them back to the third party grading service that failed to identify the trimming. If their consignor was the submitter, the card just gets cracked out. If the consignor bought it without knowing it was trimmed, cash in on the grade guarantee. If there is no guarantee, owner gets the card back raw with documentation of the alterations.

Just returning the cards to the consignor to be resold a different way as unaltered doesn't cut it.
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Old 11-22-2020, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
Collectors expose high priced card in auction that has been apparently been trimmed. Evidence put forward.

What do we expect an ethical AH should properly do?

A. Leave card up, let bidders consider the disclosure of new information as they see fit

B. Leave card up, but modify description going forward with evidence of alteration and allow bidders to retract bids if they desire

C. Pull card

D. Pull card and inform consignor that he is banned from consigning to future auctions

This seems to be coming up again and again. As a hobby, where do we stand? Or is their another obvious option I am missing. I don't think this a simple question.
I'm a little out of the loop, I'm assuming this is happening in a current auction?
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Old 11-22-2020, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Take cards out of circulation by forcing them back to the third party grading service that failed to identify the trimming. If their consignor was the submitter, the card just gets cracked out. If the consignor bought it without knowing it was trimmed, cash in on the grade guarantee. If there is no guarantee, owner gets the card back raw with documentation of the alterations.

Just returning the cards to the consignor to be resold a different way as unaltered doesn't cut it.
No auction house would do this. Doubt this would be legal in any way unless specifically provisioned for in the AH submission process, and even then....

Better would be return to consignor with a letter of explanation that also goes to the grader.
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  #7  
Old 11-22-2020, 02:52 PM
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I think B or C are appropriate, but I would say it also depends on discussions with the consignor. With new information, the consignor may not want to go though with the sale as that could result in them suffering a loss. Instead they may want to pursue something with the TPG. Conversely, the consignor may still want to go through with the auction and then the AH must disclose the evidence of the alteration. Not disclosing the alteration is completely wrong and banning the consignor just doesn't make sense cause they could have bought the card in good faith based on the TPG grade and have nothing to do with creating the alteration.

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Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Just returning the cards to the consignor to be resold a different way as unaltered doesn't cut it.
John, while I like this idea in theory, I can't see any AH opening themselves up to potential liability by doing so. The AH is not the owner of the card so if they aren't returning it in the same condition they received it, I could see someone making an argument that the AH damaged (lowered the value) of the card by removing it out of the TPG case without the owners permission.
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  #8  
Old 11-22-2020, 02:53 PM
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I am a "C" though, to date I have pulled cards like the ones described before the auction started, I know I have pulled a lot occasionally after an auction started, but I don't think it's been any of the graded trimmed or graded reprint variety. I have a graded T205 Bresnahan Mouth Closed and a graded T206 Joss Portrait that I didn't allow into the current auction. This was an estate situation so banning the consignor wouldn't make much sense, but if I had a consignor who was sending me bad cards consistently I certainly wouldn't tolerate it for very long.
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  #9  
Old 11-22-2020, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven View Post
I'm a little out of the loop, I'm assuming this is happening in a current auction?
Probably these ones:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1425669

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Last edited by swarmee; 11-22-2020 at 03:08 PM.
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  #10  
Old 11-22-2020, 02:57 PM
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I'd go with B. Unless there is indisputable evidence, I'm not sure D is a good alternative.

What happens if the AH knowingly accepted consignments like this and turned a blind eye to the practice? Is there a new selection (E) for something like that?
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  #11  
Old 11-22-2020, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x2drich2000 View Post
John, while I like this idea in theory, I can't see any AH opening themselves up to potential liability by doing so. The AH is not the owner of the card so if they aren't returning it in the same condition they received it, I could see someone making an argument that the AH damaged (lowered the value) of the card by removing it out of the TPG case without the owners permission.
The fact that the card is altered is what brings down the "value", not the slab with the fake number attached. Just continuing to play HOT POTATO with this crap is even more ridiculous.
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  #12  
Old 11-22-2020, 03:43 PM
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It seems like if people think they can make money off said card it doesn’t matter either way altered or not.

Nothing has changed one bit over the years.....it’s always up to the person buying or biding...What I’ve observed over the years is that Nobody else can be held responsible or accountable other then yourself....
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  #13  
Old 11-22-2020, 03:50 PM
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Crap, I just read the blowout forums thread that is linked in this thread. I feel like that kid that said "say it ain't so, Joe".
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  #14  
Old 11-22-2020, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
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Crap, I just read the blowout forums thread that is linked in this thread. I feel like that kid that said "say it ain't so, Joe".
You should read a lot more blowout threads then...
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  #15  
Old 11-22-2020, 03:56 PM
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Man, those blowout guys have the best graphics.

Seriously, option "B" at the very least. I would respect an auction house that in light of new information takes action and maintains transparency. Then everybody can make their own informed decision after that.
If the new information is in question, then pull the lot until it is not in question. As an auction house your reputation is all you have.
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  #16  
Old 11-22-2020, 04:01 PM
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Ethically, I don’t think you leave the auction running knowing that it was altered, and kept in the current slab, even if you disclose the alteration in the description. That leaves way too much potential for carrying the fraud forward. I think you have to pull the card.
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  #17  
Old 11-22-2020, 04:11 PM
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While I think B is certainly acceptable, if it were my shop, I would want nothing to do with the sale of a graded, but likely altered card. So I would pull the card. Thus....

C
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  #18  
Old 11-22-2020, 09:49 PM
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B or C would be the most appropriate responses IMO.

Last edited by Natswin2019; 11-22-2020 at 09:50 PM.
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  #19  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:59 PM
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I realize there are a lot of moving parts to this argument, but the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that anything short of destroying these cards is doing a disservice to the future of the hobby.
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  #20  
Old 11-23-2020, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conor912 View Post
I realize there are a lot of moving parts to this argument, but the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that anything short of destroying these cards is doing a disservice to the future of the hobby.
While I agree in spirit there's no way an auctioneer can destroy a consignor's card without permission.

We do actually destroy fake autographs when we can get permission, but a trimmed card still has value and I can't imagine a consignor allowing us to destroy one.
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  #21  
Old 11-23-2020, 06:00 AM
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It's certainly trickier than one would think at first blush. It's hard for an AH business to take a knee-jerk action based on anonymous posts on random message boards. Unfortunately in society today, most anonymous internet posting is usually drivel or toxic invective.

That said, obviously such a business also wouldn't want to sell a card that has indeed slipped past the TPG goalie.

I'd therefore hope an AH would have in-house experts who take a long hard look at any purported evidence, and also consult with the TPG, then make a determination. If the hypothetical card is determined trimmed by the TPG and AH experts, the TPG should intercede and take it back. In the event the AH and TPG disagree with each other after examination, with the AH convinced and the TPG upholding the grade, I'd hope the AH would tell the card's owner that it would like to either pull the card or amend the description. If I ran the AH, I'd pull the card; there are enough lots in an auction where I wouldn't need or want a questionable apple in there.

Last edited by MattyC; 11-23-2020 at 06:05 AM.
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  #22  
Old 11-23-2020, 09:22 AM
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i see that both of the cards have been pulled. before noon on the first business day after it was made public there are questions about the cards.

question for those saying the auction house should destroy the cards: let’s say last year you paid $200 for a PSA 5 card (never mind five figures for a PSA 8 Ruth) on eBay, at a show or from an AH. you consigned it to an auction house last month. tomorrow they call to say that an anonymous person on a message board says that your card is actually trimmed and not a PSA 5, so it has been destroyed. despite the auction house has no legal right to do that. you would be fine with that right?

oh yeah, and you are banned by the auction house despite having done absolutely nothing wrong.
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Old 11-23-2020, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Awesome graphic put together there.

I wish there was a digital screen that graders could drop a card on during the process and the exact measurements of the card are then written on the label as part of the grade. Then any person would see this Ruth is short X millimeters and even if it gets a grade the buyer can beware.
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Old 11-23-2020, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
While I agree in spirit there's no way an auctioneer can destroy a consignor's card without permission.

We do actually destroy fake autographs when we can get permission, but a trimmed card still has value and I can't imagine a consignor allowing us to destroy one.
Understood. I wasn’t implying that. My comment was more macro. The card still existing, slabbed or otherwise, is a net negative for the hobby, IMO. Obviously there’s no good answer.
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Old 11-23-2020, 01:48 PM
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Personally the card should be cracked re-holdered and marked with an invisible ink or ink that can be seen under a black light notating it is altered....
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Old 11-23-2020, 03:24 PM
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Personally the card should be cracked re-holdered and marked with an invisible ink or ink that can be seen under a black light notating it is altered....
how would you suggest that happen? should the auction house, which doesn’t own the card, ship it to sgc on their own? should the consignor of the card be told beforehand or will he just open his mailbox one day to find a former SGC 8 Ruth card now in an A holder? should sgc crack, mark and reholder without the owner’s permission? maybe all consignors from this point on should sign a waiver that if anyone in the hobby alleges fault with their cards, the owner forfeits any right to that card immediately. it sounds great for all the white knights to proclaim how the hobby needs cleaned up, but maybe spend 30 seconds giving some thought on what realistically can happen.

also, nothing takes the air out of a thread filled with righteous indignation and sideline quarterbacks quicker than the one auction house you would expect to do the right thing quickly does the right thing. poof! silence.
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Old 11-23-2020, 06:59 PM
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Was thinking about a house sale, where the seller needs to do a disclosure of known issues. I wonder if it would have any conceivable effect if major AHs required some disclosure form where the consignor had to sign a statement that he took no steps to alter the cards and was unaware of any alteration by a third party. Not sure what that would accomplish but would at least be a sworn statement that you are unaware of fraud and not perpetrating a fraud.
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Old 11-23-2020, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
Was thinking about a house sale, where the seller needs to do a disclosure of known issues. I wonder if it would have any conceivable effect if major AHs required some disclosure form where the consignor had to sign a statement that he took no steps to alter the cards and was unaware of any alteration by a third party. Not sure what that would accomplish but would at least be a sworn statement that you are unaware of fraud and not perpetrating a fraud.
I think it’s a decent idea. If a consignor signed it and then something is amuck and can be traced back to being done while in their possession, they’d certainly have some explaining to do. It could be a step in the right direction anyway.
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Old 11-23-2020, 07:14 PM
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PSA's submission form includes language stating that already. Obviously, people lie.
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Old 11-23-2020, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
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Understood. I wasn’t implying that. My comment was more macro. The card still existing, slabbed or otherwise, is a net negative for the hobby, IMO. Obviously there’s no good answer.
It's not necessarily a net negative.

Look at how other hobbies handle their altered/restored stuff.

Most of the experts organizations have their own reference collections of fakes and alterations that are used for education and training, an sometimes for comparison.
At least one collector organization maintains it's own collection of fake and altered items.

And there's a lot more honesty about alterations that have been found. (Obviously not 100%, but the dishonest dealers are either far fewer, or have learned to hide better)
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Old 11-24-2020, 03:23 PM
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Old 11-24-2020, 04:25 PM
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lol, I'm going to steal this
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  #33  
Old 11-27-2020, 07:14 PM
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https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1424063

Another time where PSA is re-certifying trimmed cards and they remain in the auction... Always get cheated, y'all.
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  #34  
Old 11-27-2020, 08:33 PM
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Never Get Cheated
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Old 11-27-2020, 09:41 PM
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Auction houses don't have the right to remove it from the holder or anything like that. They don't own the card, the consignor does.
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