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  #1  
Old 11-26-2020, 06:15 AM
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Default T206 Doyle "NATL"

Do any "normal" collectors even own one of these?

Article says that this one sold for $414K in 2012 REA Auction.

Have any of you even held one of these in hand?

It is included in PSA Checklist of T206 Regular Issue????

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2kaBWNV]
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Last edited by toledo_mudhen; 11-26-2020 at 06:17 AM.
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  #2  
Old 11-26-2020, 07:54 AM
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I own one. I acquired it from Powell Miller. It now sits in a psa 3.5 flip, and I believe it is highest graded. I acquired it bc it was literally a once in a lifetime opportunity- these are impossible. I believe there are 8, maybe 9, known. No 524 card t206 set is complete without one and, thus, there can be no more than 8-9 complete t206 sets. I am very lucky to have been given a chance to acquire mine. This is the only one I have ever seen in person and/or held.
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  #3  
Old 11-26-2020, 08:05 AM
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Dude! Just WOW!
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  #4  
Old 11-26-2020, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
I own one. I acquired it from Powell Miller. It now sits in a psa 3.5 flip, and I believe it is highest graded. I acquired it bc it was literally a once in a lifetime opportunity- these are impossible. I believe there are 8, maybe 9, known. No 524 card t206 set is complete without one and, thus, there can be no more than 8-9 complete t206 sets. I am very lucky to have been given a chance to acquire mine. This is the only one I have ever seen in person and/or held.
Ryan, The OP asked if any "normal" collectors have held or seen one in person. With you're insane collection, you don't fall in the "normal" category. (Sarcasm, of course)
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Last edited by CobbSpikedMe; 11-26-2020 at 08:19 AM.
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  #5  
Old 11-26-2020, 09:05 AM
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Lol Andy! Happy T Giving
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  #6  
Old 11-26-2020, 09:26 AM
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Default It was 2004!

In February 2004 a friend called me and asked for advice on selling some "old cards" his father had acquired! We had known each other for many years but I had no prior knowledge he had any cards. He had known that I had sold cards for over 40 years and was asking for advice on how to "sell them quickly"! He told me that he had never collected cards but that in 1984 his father had given him 1/2 of an accumulation assembled between 1908 and 1915! Yes, I was excited. I think this qualifies as "a find"!

I discovered that my friend's father was born in 1900 and that as a child the father loved sports, particularly baseball. Unfortunately from 1908 to 1915 he was confined to a wheelchair much of the time but friends and family brought him cards so that he could vicariously enjoy baseball. My friend arrived at my home with about 600 of the 1375 cards given to him by his father. My friend claimed to have no knowledge of the value of the cards but he did point out one card that someone had told him was worth $16,500! It was the T206 Doyle "NATL"! I believe that at the time (February 2004) only 6 or 7 were known to exist.

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  #7  
Old 11-26-2020, 09:51 AM
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Lol Andy! Happy T Giving
I'm glad you took that with the intended humor! Happy Thanksgiving to you as well!
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  #8  
Old 11-26-2020, 09:52 AM
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Several years ago I picked up this bargain box Joe Doyle. When I got home and looked at the card closer, the bottom of the card is scratched, right where the NAT'L would be on the rare card. I also see what appears to be some printing. Maybe some kid in 1909 knew this was a mistake and scratched it off? Maybe a modern collector tried to make this appear like the real deal? I shared this card on the board, and discovered that the back would be correct for the rare card, but all agreed it wasn't the real deal. My son in law put the damaged part under a microscope and took a picture.




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  #9  
Old 11-26-2020, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
I own one. I acquired it from Powell Miller. It now sits in a psa 3.5 flip, and I believe it is highest graded. I acquired it bc it was literally a once in a lifetime opportunity- these are impossible. I believe there are 8, maybe 9, known. No 524 card t206 set is complete without one and, thus, there can be no more than 8-9 complete t206 sets. I am very lucky to have been given a chance to acquire mine. This is the only one I have ever seen in person and/or held.
There are scans of seven different examples and reported sales of eight
different examples. Two have changed holders the one you have that went
from an SGC 50 holder to the PSA 3.5 and the SGC A that went to a BVG 4
holder.

There was a sale in a house of cards auction to Larry Frisch and as far as I know there are no pictures of that one or the other Doyle he had.


PSA 2-1.jpg
PSA 2-2.jpg
PSA 3-1 Legendary.jpg
PSA 3-2 Sold in REA.jpg
Russell example.jpg
SGC A - BVG 4.jpg
SGC 50.jpg
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  #10  
Old 11-26-2020, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
I own one. I acquired it from Powell Miller. It now sits in a psa 3.5 flip, and I believe it is highest graded. I acquired it bc it was literally a once in a lifetime opportunity- these are impossible. I believe there are 8, maybe 9, known. No 524 card t206 set is complete without one and, thus, there can be no more than 8-9 complete t206 sets. I am very lucky to have been given a chance to acquire mine. This is the only one I have ever seen in person and/or held.
Wonderful provenance on your card, Ryan.
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  #11  
Old 11-26-2020, 12:45 PM
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I met up with Joe Pelaez and some other collectors for lunch before a Chantilly show once. Joe casually reached into his backpack and pulled his Doyle Nat'l out, and passed it around the table. So I have at least held a slab. RIP Joe.

Bill
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  #12  
Old 11-26-2020, 02:02 PM
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i really miss talking and hanging out with joe. he knew a lot about t206s and wasn’t afraid to call out a lot of b.s. that gets posted about the set on this board.

nice doyle ryan. didn’t know you have one of those. are you hoping to get a wagner too?
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  #13  
Old 11-26-2020, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe View Post
Ryan, The OP asked if any "normal" collectors have held or seen one in person. With you're insane collection, you don't fall in the "normal" category. (Sarcasm, of course)
Andy beat me to it.
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  #14  
Old 11-26-2020, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsFan1941 View Post
i really miss talking and hanging out with joe. he knew a lot about t206s and wasn’t afraid to call out a lot of b.s. that gets posted about the set on this board.

nice doyle ryan. didn’t know you have one of those. are you hoping to get a wagner too?
He already has one.
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  #15  
Old 11-26-2020, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
There are scans of seven different examples and reported sales of eight
different examples. Two have changed holders the one you have that went
from an SGC 50 holder to the PSA 3.5 and the SGC A that went to a BVG 4
holder.

There was a sale in a house of cards auction to Larry Frisch and as far as I know there are no pictures of that one or the other Doyle he had.


Attachment 427963
Attachment 427964
Attachment 427965
Attachment 427966
Attachment 427967
Attachment 427968
Attachment 427969
I know of 3 ungraded Doyles. The 2 owned by the Frisch family and Richard Russell's card in his collection gifted to the University of Georgia. Is your ungraded example one of those?

There are 9 known Doyles, but only 8 possible sets because the UGA one won't be sold. I assume the Frisch family still has both their sets, Ryan has a set and Leon said another board member has a set with Doyle. It is unknown where the other 4 are and if they are in sets or not. As Ryan said, these don't come up for sale and I believe that only 2 of them have sold more than once.
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  #16  
Old 11-26-2020, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
I know of 3 ungraded Doyles. The 2 owned by the Frisch family and Richard Russell's card in his collection gifted to the University of Georgia. Is your ungraded example one of those?

There are 9 known Doyles, but only 8 possible sets because the UGA one won't be sold. I assume the Frisch family still has both their sets, Ryan has a set and Leon said another board member has a set with Doyle. It is unknown where the other 4 are and if they are in sets or not. As Ryan said, these don't come up for sale and I believe that only 2 of them have sold more than once.
The ungraded example I posted is from the Russell collection.
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  #17  
Old 11-26-2020, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
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He already has one.
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  #18  
Old 11-26-2020, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
I know of 3 ungraded Doyles. The 2 owned by the Frisch family and Richard Russell's card in his collection gifted to the University of Georgia. Is your ungraded example one of those?

There are 9 known Doyles, but only 8 possible sets because the UGA one won't be sold. I assume the Frisch family still has both their sets, Ryan has a set and Leon said another board member has a set with Doyle. It is unknown where the other 4 are and if they are in sets or not. As Ryan said, these don't come up for sale and I believe that only 2 of them have sold more than once.
Hi rats60

You are correct, there are only 9 authentic Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L cards known.

Here's the scan of this card from Senator Russell's collection on display at the
Univ. of Georgia. I acquired this picture of it many years ago......




There are 3 other ones that I know of which are (or were) in collections of Charles Conlin, Joe Pelaez,
Keith Olberman. The latter two guys initially purchased FAKE Doyle cards (circa early 1990's).

Speaking about FAKE Doyle Nat'L cards.....there was one graded by PSA with a POLAR BEAR back as
"legitimate". As most of us know, this Doyle was only printed with PIEDMONT 350 backs.
What happened to this FAKE is anyone's guess.


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  #19  
Old 11-26-2020, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
He already has one.
Sean beat me to it.
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  #20  
Old 11-26-2020, 07:42 PM
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I've held Ryan's Doyle......
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Last edited by atx840; 11-26-2020 at 07:45 PM.
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  #21  
Old 11-26-2020, 08:09 PM
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Great info guys on a truly rare card! Thanks for the photos Pat!

Here is what I have on the T206 Doyle, N.Y. Nat’l (9):
1. Larry Frisch Doyle Raw
2. Larry Frisch Doyle Raw
3. Senator Russell Doyle Raw
4. PSA 2 #08136374
5. PSA 2 #25967810
6. PSA 3 #11542509
7. Joe Pelaez Doyle PSA 3 #18571062
8. Charlie Conlon Doyle PSA 3.5 #48632531
9. BVG 4 #0006779423

Only 2 are registered in the PSA set registry
Hopefully some will be 'found' in the near future.

Last edited by Kidnapped18; 11-26-2020 at 08:09 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-26-2020, 08:29 PM
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this is the most mysterious card in the hobby lol

the Magie was well known but this seem to a “members only” error
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  #23  
Old 11-26-2020, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi rats60

You are correct, there are only 9 authentic Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L cards known.

Here's the scan of this card from Senator Russell's collection on display at the
Univ. of Georgia. I acquired this picture of it many years ago......




There are 3 other ones that I know of which are (or were) in collections of Charles Conlin, Joe Pelaez,
Keith Olberman. The latter two guys initially purchased FAKE Doyle cards (circa early 1990's).

Speaking about FAKE Doyle Nat'L cards.....there was one graded by PSA with a POLAR BEAR back as
"legitimate". As most of us know, this Doyle was only printed with PIEDMONT 350 backs.
What happened to this FAKE is anyone's guess.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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The one that Ryan now has was the Conlin Doyle it was crossed over from the SGC 50 holder to the PSA 3.5 holder.
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  #24  
Old 11-26-2020, 08:59 PM
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I've held Ryan's Doyle......

Hey Chris

Ole buddy....I have held, and closely examined four cards of the Joe Doyle Nat'L version. Two of them were REAL, and two of them were FAKE.

Dealers brought them to me to get my opinion. The most recent Joe Doyle Nat'L that was brought to my attention was from Brian Dwyer (then
with SGC) at the Valley Forge Philly Show. Brian wanted a 2nd opinion. Upon close examination, I told him it was a REAL, and SGC graded it.

Anyhow, the two key identifiers as to judging if they were real are the "N" of Nat'L lined up with the printer's Mark as shown in these scans.

And, the 2nd identifier was closely examining the Apostrophe in Nat'L. All of the FAKE's (created circa 1990) have the Apostrophe rising above the top line of the Nat'L lettering.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -^ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Printer's Mark - - - -^ (remnant of "N" in Nat'L)


TED Z

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Last edited by tedzan; 11-27-2020 at 08:07 PM. Reason: Added information.
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  #25  
Old 11-26-2020, 09:08 PM
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joe is truly missed.
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  #26  
Old 11-27-2020, 03:53 AM
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Pat have you posted this one?


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  #27  
Old 11-27-2020, 05:34 PM
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Chris do you know if they were made based off the two Doyle's Fritsch
Had?
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  #28  
Old 11-27-2020, 05:45 PM
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Hi Ted, on the fake ones, even before you would get to the location of the "N", and the apostrophe height...the type face used is just glaringly wrong, and "AT'L" in NAT'L is all the same height...whereas on real T206 cards, the league designation has "AT'L" a shorter height then the "N".

Last edited by MVSNYC; 11-27-2020 at 05:48 PM.
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  #29  
Old 11-27-2020, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MVSNYC View Post
Hi Ted, on the fake ones, even before you would get to the location of the "N", and the apostrophe height...the type face used is just glaringly wrong, and "AT'L" in NAT'L is all the same height...whereas on real T206 cards, the league designation has "AT'L" a shorter height then the "N".
Hi Mike

You are describing the more obvious FAKE's.

The location of the N in Nat'L....and, the apostrophe problem were much more subtle. The two Joe Doyle Nat'L
cards that I was asked to examine (which turned out to be FAKE's) were of the more subtle variety.

Back in the late 1980's - early 1990's these types of FAKE's were tracked down to a scammer in the Detroit area.

Actually the 1st Joe Doyle Nat'L card that Joe Pelaez acquired was a FAKE which originated from the Detroit area.
One of our Net54 members did some really cool "detective" work for Joe, and tracked down the perpetrator.


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  #30  
Old 11-27-2020, 06:32 PM
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Ah, ok, thanks Ted. I see.

Hope you're well, and happy thanksgiving!

Last edited by MVSNYC; 11-27-2020 at 06:32 PM.
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  #31  
Old 11-27-2020, 06:50 PM
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Mike

Wishing you and your Family a Happy Thanksgiving weekend.

Take care my friend.


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  #32  
Old 11-27-2020, 07:57 PM
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Thanks Ted! You too...Hope to see you again soon.
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  #33  
Old 11-28-2020, 09:49 AM
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Of course, Larry Fritch's clandestine operation to find a 2nd Doyle Nat'l after he had discovered his first was a story within the story.
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