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  #1  
Old 02-03-2023, 12:13 AM
G1911 G1911 is offline
Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
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Default Is V153 really Canadian and V?

The Robertson Pure Sugar Candy cards are pretty difficult. The fronts mirror E76, the difference is the back branding, attributing the cards to "The Robertson Candy Co." The backs give no mention of a city or state or nation. Burdick catalogued them as V153, i.e. a Canadian non-tobacco release.

Robertson Candy Co. is a Canadian candy firm still in business, but this one was founded in 1928 and makes some searching difficult. There was a Newton, Robertson and Co. in Connecticut in 1910 making candy products that is almost certainly not our issuer as well.

There was, however, a Robertson Candy Company in New York in the 1910’s running a number of advertisements in journals and papers for their “fruit tablet” candies. These are easily found.

A 1910 listing in a directory of New York companies says Edward D. Bradshaw was the President, and a Robertson was on the board. They had $10,000 of capital. The NY State Legislature report records that they paid a $5 tax on the organization of corporations in the year 1910.

They also operated under the “Robertson-Bradshaw Co.” name sometimes, sometimes with both names in the same ad, but this was not used as often.

They had an office at 286 Greenwich Street in the city, according to a 1910 edition of The Spatula, in which they regularly advertised and were sometimes mentioned.


So… What is our evidence that V153 is a V series at all? I cannot find anything on a Canadian firm of this name in the period in which these cards appear to be from, but I can easily find lots of information on a company of this name just across the border. Is there any evidence of such a firm existing?
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File Type: jpg Robertson 1917.jpg (67.3 KB, 183 views)
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  #2  
Old 02-05-2023, 03:32 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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After another couple days of research, I'm pretty sure the Canadian origin of this set is a busted myth. Burdick, while closer in time to the sets, had few resources beyond people's memory and I doubt anyone was reminiscing with him about this obscure set. It's close to the border, where cards surely flowed in Canada and some may have been found there. It stretches credulity to presume that it was a Canadian firm of this name that doesn't seem to have any evidence it existed instead of a firm of the same name in NYC, the capital of the printing and card world at that time.

This appears to actually be an E set, whether it should be catalogued as E76 as part of the same issue or treated as a separate E issue (Like T220/T223, T218/T219, T206/T213/T214/T215 where the same images were used in a different printing or format or later in time) I'm not sure.

Would love to be proven wrong if anyone has any evidence for what all the books and catalogs and checklists say.
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  #3  
Old 02-05-2023, 10:21 PM
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I don't search for these, but I have not seen many for sale. I know I saw or bid on a Fitzsimmons on eBay a few years ago. There was a 2010 sale by HA that states that they were "made for the Canadian market." Were the cards made in New York, but distributed in Canada? The winner of the lot got 13/20 in nice shape for under $800. I know they also made jockey cards.
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  #4  
Old 02-06-2023, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie View Post
I don't search for these, but I have not seen many for sale. I know I saw or bid on a Fitzsimmons on eBay a few years ago. There was a 2010 sale by HA that states that they were "made for the Canadian market." Were the cards made in New York, but distributed in Canada? The winner of the lot got 13/20 in nice shape for under $800. I know they also made jockey cards.
It doesn't appear they were made in NY for the Canadian market. The NY business is a small business operating out of a single storefront (that would explain why these cards are so brutal to find) that doesn't seem to have distributed widely. I can't find any evidence that any candy from a Robertson Candy Co. was sold outside of New York City anywhere in the world at this time.

As far as I can tell, every subsequence resource to Burdick has just repeated that it is Canadian because that is what he catalogued it as, and there has been no inquiry or research. When Burdick did his research, this NY firm appears to have been a relic of the past, but there was a Robertson Candy Co. in Canada (which didn't exist when the cards were issued, founded in 1928).

They are probably printed in the NY area, but that is a deductive guess and we cannot know at this juncture.

The cards were either issued by this small local manufacturer (or repackager?) and retailer, or by a different business of the same name. If it is a different business, there must be evidence that they existed. If there is nothing that indicates this alleged Canadian firm existed, then the set must be an E card issue from the local NY manufacturer.
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  #5  
Old 02-06-2023, 07:58 PM
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What do you make of the v150 jockeys supposedly appearing in 1910, 2 years before the e47 mirror set. I'm getting this info from Anson's prewar site. I have e75 and 76 and n22 AG and e47, but I don't have any Robertson's cards. Here are pics of the jockey cards (not my cards).

I would expect a small company to copy a big company's set, instead of the other way around. Did American Caramel ever own Robertson's?
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File Type: jpg n22belmont.jpg (9.8 KB, 142 views)
File Type: jpg e47belmont.jpg (32.1 KB, 140 views)
File Type: jpg v150 belmont.jpg (28.3 KB, 140 views)
File Type: jpg v150belmontb.jpg (29.6 KB, 142 views)
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  #6  
Old 02-07-2023, 12:23 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Robertson appears to have been around through at least 1918, when they are still listed at the 256 Grenwhich address in city directories. American Caramel had an address at 233 Broadway in NYC, but they were headquartered in York, PA. They controlled most of the caramel industry in the US after they bought Lancaster from Milton Hershey.

I have found no evidence that the American Caramel company owned the Robertson Candy Company. Robertson is a small business, $10K is something like ~$300K today, their capital makes sense for a small operation and storefront. It is, though, entirely possible they were a subsidiary front. In the time of the anti-monopoly laws and much vagueness about what the federal government was really going to do, many industries dominated by a single company seem to be using informal shell companies to try and make it look more competitive. In the T220 Silver thread we've found much that strongly suggests this was exactly the case for American Lithography, and American Tobacco. Since the purpose of these smaller subsidiaries was to remain clandestine and appear to not be what they actually were, we aren't going to find a document saying this in journals and newspapers; if such a document was ever made and survived it would be in an archive or attic somewhere.

While the ATC and their friends Knapp and AL clearly had some kind of exclusivity agreement, I don't think its clear this was the case for most of the E cards. Lots of anonymous cards, lots of sets that seem to have been printed to advertise multiple products or companies, it could be that Robertson was one of many clandestine subsidiaries, or that someone there thought it would be a good idea to do what the big boys were doing

For the dates, I would be shocked if the Robertson sets predated the ACC ones. They must be the same time or after; it doesn't make sense the other way around.

That prewarcards site makes a lot of claims to fact, almost none of which are sourced. Many come from hobby tradition and are wrong because much of hobby tradition has never been researched, others they seem to have invented and are directly at odds with all evidence and the ledgers. Just looking at the T cards I've looked into the most, T218 is not 1910-1912 nor issued by Honest, it's 1910-1911 (as the ledger makes clear). T219 is not a 1910 set (impossible, some of the cards it copies weren't made until 1911). T220 is 1910-1911, not just 1910. T225 is not a 1911 set, it is an early 1910 set as the Fullgraff ledger makes clear. T9 is 1910-1911, not just 1911. T223 is probably a 1910-1911 or 1911 release, not 1910, the answer to this one probably lies in the Fullgraff ledger if we ever got to see a full copy of all pages. T227 appears dated correct, but sure wasn't issued by Mecca. The site is riddled with false dates and claims in regards to the boxing cards at least.


I have an E75 master, E76, most of E47 and no Robertson's. The Robertson's are brutal to find; no idea what they are really worth nowadays as I haven't seen any recent sale the last couple years. Had one as a type on my wantlist.
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  #7  
Old 02-07-2023, 04:47 PM
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Interesting stuff to think about. I think Anson said he was using PSA's issue dates. I agree that PSA does not know.

I would think Robertson would have copied the design of American Caramel, or maybe used with permission, and agree Robertson would have to have been a later or concurrent issue.
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  #8  
Old 02-16-2023, 10:48 AM
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Bradshaw was the director of Crown Sweets Co. in 1908 according to the Trow corporate directory (https://www.google.com/books/edition...J?hl=en&gbpv=0). He seems to be career candy man.

The 1919 edition of Trows has two listings for Robertson Candy Co., one dissolved. Not clear on what that means exactly https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover

They were apparently so small time that even when placing paid ads, their name was sometimes got wrong. The Spatula calls them the “Robinson Candy Company”, contrary to the sign off even, at the end of 1918 (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover, 154)

Bradshaw was apparently the candy man running the business. Robertson presumably provided the capital.

By June of 1923 they have moved to 31 Jay St, advertising that their fruit tables “prevents the taking in of much dust” when driving cars. (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover, 322). They were at the 286 Greenwich Street address into 1919 at least.


Bradshaw has some popping corn patents, and seems to be doing other things by November of 1921, when advertisements for his own companies popcorn run adjacent to Robertson advertisements in the Confectioners Journal (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover - November, 2). He might still be working with Robertson to. For baseball collectors, one page above the Robertson and Bradshaw ads, is one for the Croft & Allen Co. showing a drawing of their buildings in Philadelphia (November, 1).

They seem to fade from visibility after 1923 or so.


I found in Canada a Robertson Bros. Ltd. firm in the confectionary candy space, from the 19th century into the 1920’s at least in the Toronto area. They always seem to go by Robertson Bros. or Robertson Brothers, never once “Robertson Candy Co.” or something close to that beyond also having a “Robertson” own it. This firm was a larger operation and its founding brother wealthy Scottish immigrants. There are numerous advertisements, columns, press reports, journal articles and biographical entries of its founders easily found. I think this is not our company either, like the later Robertson Candy Co. in Canada that existed in Burdick’s day but not when the cards were issued, and has the wrong name. It is another possible explanation for how the Canadian origin was placed onto the cards though, as it is similar sounding.

Still cannot find a "Robertson Candy Co." or "Robertson Candy" in Canada during the period the cards are apparently from.
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  #9  
Old 02-18-2023, 01:30 PM
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I believe dissolved means the company or corporation that was formed has been shut down but still exists until its business is wound up (debts paid, remaining capital distributed etc.). It was pretty common around WW1 and WW2, likely due to cash flow issues in many cases.

Last edited by toppcat; 02-18-2023 at 01:32 PM.
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  #10  
Old 02-18-2023, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toppcat View Post
I believe dissolved means the company or corporation that was formed has been shut down but still exists until its business is wound up (debts paid, remaining capital distributed etc.). It was pretty common around WW1 and WW2, likely due to cash flow issues in many cases.
What's really tripping me up is the dual listing. Robertson Candy Co. also operated as the Roberston-Bradshaw Co. (I think this was the legal name for them, most of the advertising is Robertson Candy Co.). They have 2 entries, both at the same address of their storefront in the listing. It doesn't look like the business was actually dissolved, or that it reconstituted into a different entity for debt or tax purposes as the new entity had the same name, address and ownership/operators. I don't understand what this dual listing signifies
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  #11  
Old 02-18-2023, 03:10 PM
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It's almost like how comic and pulp publishers operated in the early days-each title was essentially published by a different company so an issue with one title (likely owing the distributor more than could be paid) didn't take down the larger concern. It would not surprise me if that's the case here.
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  #12  
Old 02-18-2023, 04:45 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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That the companies have the exact same name, address and operators sounds odd to me, like it would be very difficult for them to argue in court that it is not the same company, as they haven't even tweaked the name slightly. I may just be misreading the records here.



Separate from the dissolution, some research on their business location to see if any connections can be established, or time lines clarified. I have yet to find a direct record of the cards, which I doubt exists.

Greenwich Street still exists, along the western side of Manhattan close to the shore. It looks like 286 isn't a valid address anymore, but that many of the buildings on this street are the old and tall brick businesses. Their store might still be standing under a different numbering scheme.

Robertson apparently did not have the building to themselves. In 1916 the H.C. Wetterau Co., "receives and delivers" eggs, cheeses and butters at the address, at the same time the Robertson Candy Company was still using it too. (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover, page 1010).

A complicated court case I don't have the patience to read 1,000 pages of for this tiny footnote of card history has the Horace Frick machining company there in 1909, and shows they owned machinery there through at least 1912, when Roberston Candy Co. was also there. (https://books.googleusercontent.com/...Ex_CwjMrNWuVRw)

In 1914 a W.T. Wheeler had his yacht registered to this address, again when Robertson Candy Co. was using it still. (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover)

A 1901 (pre-Robertson) report of the Committee on Fire Patrol says it was a five story brick building (which sounds exactly like how many of the buildings on this street today look like on Google) and has it occupied by 2 businesses. The other businesses on the street were 3-7 story brick (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover)

In 1909, the Crown Sweets Co. is listed by the Health Department as being at the 286 address, just before Robertson Candy seems to have been founded. Robertson may be descended from this company, or took over a previous manufacturer and retailers confectionary space and equipment. https://www.google.com/books/edition...J?hl=en&gbpv=0

Last edited by G1911; 02-18-2023 at 04:45 PM.
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  #13  
Old 06-23-2023, 01:09 AM
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A question this time, rather than an update. When was this set actually termed V153 at all? I decided to double check how it is labelled today. I have a copy of the 1956 American Card Catalog, which ends the numbering in the V100's sequence at V152. V150, Robertson Candy's Jockey series discussed in this thread as well, is present. Burdick evidently did believe then that Robertson Candy was a Canadian product as V150 and V153 have to be catalogued with the same nation, but it appears that as late as 1956 he did not know about the prize fighters at all. The MET inventory records cards up to V154 in album 336.

Would anybody be kind enough to check 1957 and later editions of the ACC if they have one?
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Old 06-25-2023, 07:28 AM
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Greg, I did find a little information in old newspapers that might be helpful.

Like you I didn't find any Robertson Candy Co. in Canada from the correct timeframe but there were a few ads for a Robertson's candy in Canadian newspapers in 1909.

Robertson's CandyThe_Victoria_Daily_Times_Wed__Dec_22__1909_.jpg

Robertson's The_Ottawa_Citizen_Thu__Dec_23__1909_.jpg

I found several ads/clippings for Robertson Candy Co. in New York papers here's one from 1909 and one from 1918

Robertson Candy New_York_Tribune_Wed__Sep_22__1909_.jpg

Robertson Candy Co.The_Evening_World_Fri__Dec_20__1918_.jpg

I only found one ad for Robertson-Bradshaw it was from 1918 and it was in a New York paper

Robertson-Bradshaw New_York_Tribune_Fri__Oct_4__1918_.jpg


What I found on the Crown Sweets is interesting, I found this in the New York Times from 1908

Crown Sweets The_New_York_Times_Fri__Feb_28__1908_.jpg

and I found this in the New York Times from 1910 where Bradshaw filed a suit against Crown Sweets

Crown Sweets The_New_York_Times_Sun__Aug_21__1910_ (1).jpg

While I was researching I also found where an individual had a case in supreme court against Bradshaw but I didn't save it and I couldn't find it again.

I found it, I'm not sure if it's the same Edward Bradshaw but it's a clipping from the Buffalo Courier December 20 1911.

Buffalo_Courier_Wed__Dec_20__1911_.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 06-25-2023 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 06-26-2023, 01:05 AM
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Thank you Pat! This fits in with what else has surfaced. The
"Robertson's Candy" product is presumably from Robertson Bros., the much larger candy firm and in Canada. It is also possible that some of Robertson Candy Co.'s product was also sold in Canada. Or that there was, indeed, a similarly obscure Robertson Candy Co. that was in Canada during this time and will eventually surface. I think it unlikely now, but it is possible.

It is interesting the Hudson-Fulton fund piece lists Robertson Candy Co. and Bradshaw & Co. The Bradshaw of Crown Sweets and Robertson and Robertson & Bradshaw?

Bradshaw suing Crown, which previously to Robertson Candy Co. was one of the occupants of the same Grenwich building, is interesting. Roberston takes over the office space and takes one of their managing directors around this time. Not sure if it will ever matter to the cards but there is some story here.
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Old 06-26-2023, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
A question this time, rather than an update. When was this set actually termed V153 at all? I decided to double check how it is labelled today. I have a copy of the 1956 American Card Catalog, which ends the numbering in the V100's sequence at V152. V150, Robertson Candy's Jockey series discussed in this thread as well, is present. Burdick evidently did believe then that Robertson Candy was a Canadian product as V150 and V153 have to be catalogued with the same nation, but it appears that as late as 1956 he did not know about the prize fighters at all. The MET inventory records cards up to V154 in album 336.

Would anybody be kind enough to check 1957 and later editions of the ACC if they have one?
I have been shown that the 1960 ACC lists V153; so Burdick didn't know about these until between 1957-1960 and then added them in.
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Old 06-26-2023, 10:21 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
That the companies have the exact same name, address and operators sounds odd to me, like it would be very difficult for them to argue in court that it is not the same company, as they haven't even tweaked the name slightly. I may just be misreading the records here.
The car dealership I worked for was actually something like 5 companies.
Sales
Parts
service
Bodyshop
Rentals

The only one that wasn't in the same building was the body shop, which was next door. But they used the same office.

Something about moving money around to soften the "look" of profits and losses. (and yes, it was probably at least a little shady)
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Old 09-04-2023, 10:59 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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No further research success, but finally picked up the jockey that's been lingering on eBay, so I have a Robertson's in hand now. Can't imagine doing these as full sets, that's got to be a brutal search
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