$50 REWARD for finding any BROAD LEAF 460 "No-Print" cards

[tedzan]

American Litho. printed the BL 460 cards in the Fall/Winter of 1910. The BL 460 cards are only from the 350/460 series
of 62 subjects. However, only 42% of these 62 are known BL 460 cards.

The following 26 cards have been confirmed with BL 460 cards as of 4/6/10

Baker
M. Brown (Chicago)
Cobb (red portrait)
Davis (A's)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
Cy Young (glove)



There is a good probability that any (or all) of the following cards will eventually be found with BL 460 backs......

Ames (hands over head
Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Donlin (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)


The remaining 28 cards in the 350/460 series apparently are BL 460 "NO-PRINTS".....this list will be posted shortly.

Let's see if you can prove me wrong....And, for every one of the "No-Print" cards you confirm with a BL 460 back,
I will reward you with a Andrew Jackson Greenback !



TED Z

[Chicago206]

"Looking for confirmation of these last 8 cards with BL 460 backs....any help is appreciated ?"


Yes, I have all 8 of those....no I dont have to prove it to you.

[cfc1909]

why would the 28 be no prints?

[White Borders]

[ullmandds]

craig...i think he was kidding!!!

[Chicago206]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

craig...i think he was kidding!!!

I most certainly was!!!!! It was a joke in reference to the recent JP + BL460 fiasco. No harm intended!

[Jacklitsch]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

craig...i think he was kidding!!!

I'm reasonably sure he knew that.

Well done Craig. Now you can take your tongue out of your cheek.

[frankb22]

I'm glad Jim R asked first because I respect his knowledge when it
comes to the tougher backs so the answer must not be obvious.

Why are they no-prints?

[tedzan]

I appreciate your sense of humor.

[tedzan]

I knew you'd ask. I will post the list of "No Prints" in a moment.

TED Z

[tedzan]

Here are the 28 cards which I am stating were not printed with the BROAD LEAF 460 back.

Prove me wrong, and for every one of the following cards you confirm with a BL 460 back,
I will reward you with a Hamilton Greenback !

350/460 Series cards..............28 - "No-Prints"

Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


Happy hunting, guys......


T-Rex TED

[JP]

I have never owned any of the 28 no prints.

[BobbyVCP]

Ted,

I thought all these back set lists where created from known existing cards. How where these list created otherwise?

[tedzan]

These confirmed and "No-Print" lists are the results of my research, while collecting my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set,
in which I discovered that AB 460 and UZIT cards were printed as pairs. And, that BL 460 and Red HINDU cards were as
pairs. Furthermore, these two sets of pairs are mutually exclusive. That is, you will not find a BL 460 and a UZIT back on
the same subject. Also, you will not find a BL 460 and an AB 460 back on the same subject.

Please keep in mind, that these stated rules apply only to the 62 cards in the 350/460 series....of which the BL 460 cards
are from.

I hope I have answered your question. If not, I'll try again.

Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Gee, so far no takers. So, I'll expand this $10 offer to include the 8 cards that I expect will be found.

There is a very good probability that any of these 8 cards will eventually be found with BL 460 backs.

Ames (hands over head)
Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Donlin (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)


There is a very low probability that any of the following 28 cards will be found with a BL 460 back.
Therefore, I'm classifying them as "No-Prints".

Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


Happy hunting, guys......I'm expecting to see some new BL 460's added to the confirmed list of 26.


T-Rex TED

[tedzan]

Regarding your..........

"I'm glad Jim R asked first because I respect his knowledge when it
comes to the tougher backs so the answer must not be obvious.
Why are they no-prints?"


It gets somewhat complicated; however, here's my answer to you..........

My observations of of several surveys of BROAD LEAF 460, Red HINDU, and UZIT cards......combined with my research
while putting together my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set has resulted in what appears to be a well-defined pattern.

My theory is......American Lithographic (ALC) printed simultaneous press runs of BROAD LEAF 460 and Red HINDU cards
with fronts common to both (Winter of 1910). In the Spring of 1911, ALC printed simultaneous press runs of AMERICAN
BEAUTY 460 and UZIT cards (with fronts common to both).

Furthermore, because of the timeline difference (4 months) the BL 460 / Red HINDU pairs are mutually exclusive with the
AB 460 / UZIT pairs. Therefore, assuming my theory is true, this pattern allows us to predict which front/back combos
were printed, As a consequence, we are also have the ability to determine which front/back combos are NO-PRINTS.

The three lists of BROAD LEAF 460 that I have posted in this thread are the results of this research. I have a very high
confidence factor that these lists are an accurate representation of "The Monster" with respect to not only the BL 460
cards; but also, the AB 460, Red HINDU, and UZIT cards.

Thanks for your excellent question,

TED Z

[E93]

Ted,
Wow. Good research.
Thanks,
JimB

Originally Posted by tedzan

Regarding your..........

"I'm glad Jim R asked first because I respect his knowledge when it
comes to the tougher backs so the answer must not be obvious.
Why are they no-prints?"


It gets somewhat complicated; however, here's my answer to you..........

My observations of of several surveys of BROAD LEAF 460, Red HINDU, and UZIT cards......combined with my research
while putting together my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set has resulted in what appears to be a well-defined pattern.

My theory is......American Lithographic (ALC) printed simultaneous press runs of BROAD LEAF 460 and Red HINDU cards
with fronts common to both (Winter of 1910). In the Spring of 1911, ALC printed simultaneous press runs of AMERICAN
BEAUTY 460 and UZIT cards (with fronts common to both).

Furthermore, because of the timeline difference (4 months) the BL 460 / Red HINDU pairs are mutually exclusive with the
AB 460 / UZIT pairs. Therefore, assuming my theory is true, this pattern allows us to predict which front/back combos
were printed, As a consequence, we are also have the ability to determine which front/back combos are NO-PRINTS.

The three lists of BROAD LEAF 460 that I have posted in this thread are the results of this research. I have a very high
confidence factor that these lists are an accurate representation of "The Monster" with respect to not only the BL 460
cards; but also, the AB 460, Red HINDU, and UZIT cards.

Thanks for your excellent question,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Thanks for your kind words......I appreciate them more than you know.

For as of late, I've been dodging quite a bit of flak on this forum (from two of the usual suspects).

Best regards,


TED Z

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by frankb22

I'm glad Jim R asked first because I respect his knowledge when it
comes to the tougher backs so the answer must not be obvious.

Why are they no-prints?

*

Ditto to what frankb22 says.

[JP]

Ted,

I understand that you know which 26 different BL460s exist, and which 8 are likely to exist, but do you have any population numbers (total graded and/or non-graded) on any of the known cards? For instance I've seen at least 3 different Addie Joss and Charlie O'leary BL460s each, but have yet to see most that are on the confirmed list. Are most of the known BL460s 1 of 1?

[cfc1909]

These last few years checking and rechecking the confirmed front back combos looks like it has really paid off. Your AB 460 collection is also key-it has outlined the BL460/red Hindu pairs and the AB460/Uzit pairs and to say with some certainty that there are no prints and exactly which cards.

This is huge for this set. This set is very hard to understand but this is definately making it easier. You being retired and able to spend countless hours figuring this out is priceless. I think I will let you hang out with me at the next Philly show...

All joking aside-thank you so much-you know this is my favorite set because of the backs and the Baltimore players in it-this is great stuff. I am still learning new things about this set every day.

I also want to thank a few collectors( you know who you are) that are very low key but do share their information with us that helps gather all this and make it possible.

Frank -thank you for your kind words.

[FrankWakefield]

Ted, truly great information. Insightful.

Can this similarity of printing be applied to earlier 350 press runs?

And Jim, you're right to thank those that forward information. As it trickles in the mozaic of the white border cards becomes more defined.

Frank W.

[ethicsprof]

amazing scholarly work, Ted, that has illuminated the darkest reaches of the Monster.
i'm sure that you are now at the top of its 10 Most Wanted List!!!
and most of the rest of the list lives on this board!

best,
barry

[wonkaticket]

Well done Ted good read some good insight.

Not sure if anyone will be selling you BL460's for $10 bucks though..

Besides Jim offers $12.

[tedzan]

I really appreciate all your complimentary words here. They have engendered a great feeling in me. Some folks try to dazzle
you with their PSA8 graded cards....I'd rather dazzle you with some high-level research into the mystery's of BB card issues.

John W
I am upping the ante on this REWARD to $20 for CONFIRMED info on the 28 cards that I claim are BL 460 "NO-PRINTS". I am
quite confident that these 28 cards wont be found with BL 460 backs (simply because my research suggests that they were
never printed).

Hey guys, I may be proven wrong on this......and, I welcome that. However, I do not expect to go broke paying out Andrew
Jackson greenbacks.


Please note....I still think that there is a good probability that any (or all) of the following cards will eventually be found with
BL 460 backs....and, my offer stands to pay anyone $20 for the verification of any of these....."Elusive Eight".

Ames (hands over head)
Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Donlin (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)


Best regards to all of you,

TED Z

[rebelsart]

Hello Ted,
Always enjoy reading your postings on the T206 back breakdowns.

I am confused by your BL460/Hindu red and AB460/Uzit patterns.

I show some cards in the 350/460 series that have been confirmed with multiples of these backs. For example:

Burch, fielding confirmed with BL460, Hindu Red, Lenox, Uzit.
Mullin, batting - my list shows I have seen this one with BL460, and have a Uzit.
Cobb, red - confirmed with BL460, Lenox, Uzit, and a PSA graded Hindu red.
Downey, batting - confirmed with BL460, Hindu Red, Lenox, Uzit.

Since we have no recorded front/back information until Bill Heitman began in 1980 we are still searching to confirm many of these possiblities. Every year we find some "new" combinations and add to these lists.

Art

[tedzan]

Here is what my research indicates......

Cobb (red portrait)......
Indeed, I have listed this card with a BL 460 back......but, I have to disagree with you that it exists with either a Red HINDU
back or, a UZIT back. The PSA graded Red HINDU (the only one ever seen), that was in last year's auction, is very suspect.
And, none of the Six Super Prints (of which this Cobb is one) were printed with the UZIT back.

Downey (batting)......
Do you have this card with a UZIT back ? I've never seen this card with a UZIT back.

Mullin (batting)......
I have this card with AB 460 and UZIT backs. I've never seen this card with a BL460 back.

Burch (fielding)......
The only one of these 4 backs I have of this card is an AB 460. I know that the Super-Set indicates that BL 460, Red HINDU,
and UZIT have been seen. But, neither of these 3 backs have been confirmed by anyone.

The approx. 4800 inputs on the Super-Set (S-S) are 99.5 % accurate. However, I have been suspect of some of this data.
So, I have contacted about a dozen people who have inputted such data to the S-S; and, it turned out in 6 cases that their
inputs were mistaken.
I tell you this because I'm skeptical about the BL 460 and/or the Red HINDU backs regarding Burch. Can you positively verify
if Burch exists with a BL 460 and/or a Red HINDU ?

Perhaps, Burch is the one anomaly to my AB 460 / UZIT or BL 460 / Red HINDU pattern theory. At this point, I cannot tell from
the data that exists. I'm hoping you can clarify this subject ?

Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Regarding your......

" I understand that you know which 26 different BL460s exist, and which 8 are likely to exist, but do you have any population
numbers (total graded and/or non-graded) on any of the known cards? "

I do not do POP reports, so I can't provide you any population #'s. Anyhow PSA #'s, for the most part, would be unrepresent-
ative. In 30 years of collecting T206's, I've seen at least one example of 20 of the 26 listed BL 460 cards.

In a about 5 cases, I have seen 2 examples. Perhaps, I might just start a survey here to see what kind of population exists
among the BL 460 cards.


TED Z

[JP]

Thanks, Ted. I wasn't really looking for a specific PSA-like pop report, was just curious if some were known to be more prevelant than others. (PSA I understand is definitely not representative, I'd be surprised if more than a handful have EVER been graded by them.) I appreciate the response, though, and am curious as to which ones others have seen. Other than in auctions online, I know I've seen less than 10 in my lifetime. For example, I can attest to seeing an O'leary at a card show in S.F. a few years ago that was not the same as the one that is in the current REA auction or the one that is new to my collection.

[rebelsart]

Ted,
Here is a scan of T206 Burch, fielding with Uzit back. Still looking for other scans as requested.

[tedzan]

Art

Thanx for confirming the Burch/UZIT. That makes me happy as it is consistent with the AB 460 / UZIT "matched pairs"
that I have identified.

I'll be very surprised if Burch appears with either a BL 460 or a Red HINDU.

Best regards,

TED Z

[White Borders]

Hi Ted,

Here's some data that you can start your survey with:

I have:

Rube Manning (Pitching) with an Uzit back, which means, if i've correctly understood the Zanidakis Correlation, it should also be found with an AB460 back, but not with either a BL460 or a Red Hindu.

Jake Stahl (Glove Showing) with a BL460 back. So it should also be found with a Red Hindu, but not an AB460 or Uzit.

So, does anyone else have Rube Manning (Pitching) or Jake Stahl (Glove Showing) with BL460, Red Hindu, AB460 or Uzit backs?

Best Regards,
Craig

[tedzan]

Craig

A Net54 member has Manning with an AB 460 back. This AB 460 card is one of the toughest ones [like Conroy (bat),
Lajoie (bat), Overall (sunset sky), Wilhelm (bat), etc.].

Stahl (glove) has been confirmed with the Red HINDU back (no AB 460 or UZIT).


Thanks for your inputs,

TED Z

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

I currently own a AB 460 and did own a AB350 of Manning. Idid own a Conroy but not sure where I sold it.

Lee

[cfc1909]

Lee-Ted has your Conroy bat AB 460-I got that card in a trade with you for a Cycle 460 Street-after I got it I sent it to Ted.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Now I remember. I thought it was nice having both Manning 350 and 460 but other collecting interests got me to sell off the 350.

Lee

[tedzan]

Would you be interested in selling or trading the AB 460 Manning ?

TED Z

[White Borders]

Hey Ted,

What are your thoughts on the two bifurcated cards, Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chi & Bos), with respect to the mutual exclusivity of BL460/Red Hindu vs AB460/Uzit? Do you think they behave as 350/460 Series subjects?

If so, since Kleinow (Boston) has been confirmed with a BL460 back, then it should also be found with a Red Hindu, but not with AB460 or Uzit backs.

For Smith (Chi & Bos), I think, but I'm not certain, that it has been confirmed with an AB460 back. So, it should then also be found with an Uzit back, but not with a BL460 or Red Hindu.

Many times I've read Scot Reader's explanation of the bifurcation of Kleinow (NY Catching) / Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chi White Cap) / Smith (Chi & Bos) in "Inside T206". It is a fascinating - but somewhat difficult - concept to completely grasp!

Thanks and Best Regards,
Craig


Note - The following is the pertinent portion from Scot Reader's "Inside T206: Centennial Edition" for anyone wanting to brush up on the bifurcations of Kleinow and Smith.

The T206 subject bifurcation theory introduced in the 150/350 group discussion has relevance to the 350/460 RP group as well. In the latter subject group, the players of interest are Red Kleinow and Frank Smith. These players have subjects, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (Chicago White Cap), that were intended to have been fully printed with the 350/460 RP group, but experienced shortened print runs due to trades that sent these players to new teams.

As a result of the trades, the original subjects that identified the players with their former teams were replaced midway through the 350/460 RP print run with subjects that identified the players with their new teams. The result is that all four of these bifurcated subjects were short-printed relative to garden variety 350/460 RP subjects.

Thus, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) was an intended 350/460 RP subject that was printed with 350 series backs but removed before the 460 portion of the print run started in favor of Kleinow (Boston), which underwent print with the 460 series backs.

Similarly, Smith (Chicago White Cap) was a planned 350/460 RP subject that was printed with 350 series backs before yielding to Smith (Chicago and Boston), which experienced the 460 portion of the print run.

The Kleinow and Smith bifurcations have several consequences. First, although Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (Chicago White Cap) are technically 350-only subjects (since they do not appear with any 460 series back), as bifurcated 350/460 RP subjects they do not exist with any 350 series back that is exclusive to the 350-only group, namely, American Beauty 350 with Frame, Broad Leaf 350, Carolina Brights or Cycle 350.

Second, although Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago and Boston) are technically 460-only subjects (since they do not appear with any 350 series back), as bifurcated 350/460 RP subjects they do not exist with any 460 series back that was introduced with the 460-only subject group, namely, Sovereign 460 or Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 30.

[JP]

Originally Posted by White Borders

If so, since Kleinow (Boston) has been confirmed with a BL460 back, then it should also be found with a Red Hindu...

There's a Red Hindu Kleinow (Boston) in the current REA.....

[tedzan]

The Kleinow (Boston) and the Smith (Chi & Bos) are actually 350/460 series cards without any 350 series backs.
That is the best way to look at these two strange cards.

OK, Kleinow (Boston) is found with a BL 460 back and a Red HINDU back.

Smith (Chi & Bos) is found with an AB 460 back and a UZIT back.

It's as simple as that.

Good question, I hope I answered you satisfactorily.

TED Z

[tedzan]

Craig W....and, others who have tried to contact me via PM's.


I'm not accepting PM's.....instead, I have blocked them.

Please contact me directly via normal Email at......

tedzan11@comcast.net


Thanks,

TED Z

[cfc1909]

Smith.jpgSmithb.jpg

[tedzan]

Thanks for posting a super rare front/back combo......Smith / UZIT


TED Z

[tedzan]

I have doubled the reward to $40 for anyone finding any of the listed 28 subjects that I consider BL 460 No-Prints......

The following 28 cards are deemed as BL 460 No-Prints

Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


Thanks for your responses,

TED Z

[tedzan]

OK, I'm not too surprised that there are no takers for the $40 reward for confirming any one of these cards listed
as BROAD LEAF 460 "No-Prints".

So, can we assume that none of these exist with the BL 460 back ?

Or, is it too early in this game for us to be sure ? ?

Come on guys, the two Andrew Jackson's are burning a hole in my pocket


TED Z

[slidekellyslide]

Ted, if you keep raising the reward people are going to hold out until you hit your stopping point.

Not that I think anyone will come forward with a card on your list...if one does exist it's probably held by someone who thinks uncatalogued cards are state secrets.

[GoldenAge50s]

When you get up to around $100 I'm going to dig out all 28 of them from my backroom & show them to you!

I've got them mixed in w/ my Monster boxes full of 1991 Fleer & it's too much trouble to find them right now.

[tedzan]

OK guys, why stop at a $100.....I might just offer a $1000 reward, and perhaps that will get us some action on these BL 460 cards.

Reminds me of back in the mid 1970's when a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle card was considered quite rare. By 1980, this Mantle card
was selling for $2000....and, they were coming out of the woodwork.

Well, the 26 known BL 460 cards are quite rare; and, if I did my homework correctly, these 28 - BL 460 "No-Prints" just do not exist.
So, I think my bank account is safe.


TED Z

[FUBAR]

at $1000 ea, i will start printing them... nice fresh gradable cards....

[philliesphan]

Ted:

A fellow collector a few years ago [2-3?] told me that he possessed the McQuillan bat with a BL 460 that was in his safe deposit box at the bank. I had no reason to doubt him, but he didn't have a scan or anything that is definitive evidence.