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  #51  
Old 02-04-2017, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Republicaninmass View Post
What if all it needed was a little wet sand and buff?
I have always found morals depend greatly on if you are the seller or the buyer. If you are the buyer it is unacceptable but if you are the seller it is OK.
  #52  
Old 02-04-2017, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
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I have always found morals depend greatly on if you are the seller or the buyer. If you are the buyer it is unacceptable but if you are the seller it is OK.
so true!
  #53  
Old 02-04-2017, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnorth View Post
I have always found morals depend greatly on if you are the seller or the buyer. If you are the buyer it is unacceptable but if you are the seller it is OK.

Well, it's back on the market just a few months after being sold by Goldin. I wonder if the winning bidder of that auction had buyers remorse so soon after getting it in hand (or somebody alerted him of the restoration job), and decided he'd be better off without it.
  #54  
Old 02-04-2017, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
People get their panties in a wad when there is a lack of transparency. That is understandable. I have no issue with the cleaner card. It looks great. And I don't blame PSA one bit. I have been told by one of the best graders I know, who has had personal cards conserved and cleaned, and he said there was literally NO way he could tell anything was done to his cards. It isn't PSA's fault if there is nothing to see.

.
Leon, I disagree that it isn't psa' fault. First of all, the card is off centered and is at best a 6(st). Second, on a low pop card like this, a cursory search of past sales would have easily revealed the alteration. Heck, our own hawk-eyed member caught it and he isn't a professional grader. When your grading evaluation means the difference between a 5k card and a 35k card, you owe the card community that diligence if you proclaim to be the the best in the business. Like JC said,this was obviously submitted by a preferred client and they over-graded without any research whatsoever.

Last edited by orly57; 02-04-2017 at 08:44 AM.
  #55  
Old 02-04-2017, 08:42 AM
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Disagree all you want to. It is a chat board. The reality is that if a grader can't see a fault they aren't going to discount the grade for it. No matter how much you disagree it won't change that fact.

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Originally Posted by orly57 View Post
Leon, I disagree that it isn't psa' fault. First of all, the card is off centered and is at best a 6(st). Second, on a low pop card like this, a cursory search of past sales would have easily revealed the alteration. Heck, our own hawk-eyed member caught it and he isn't a professional grader. Like JC said,this was submitted by a preferred client and they over-graded without any research whatsoever.
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  #56  
Old 02-04-2017, 08:54 AM
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Disagree all you want to. It is a chat board. The reality is that if a grader can't see a fault they aren't going to discount the grade for it. No matter how much you disagree it won't change that fact.
You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.
  #57  
Old 02-04-2017, 08:54 AM
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,

Quote:
Brent Huigens
8:34 AM (19 minutes ago)

to me
I'm aware of the Net54 thread.

Ultimately small small restoration issues like this (scrapbook removal, wax removal, etc) is a gray area in the hobby but ultimately it's up to PSA and their quality control standards to determine what's acceptable and what is not. Card is a very good 7...looks graded right to me.

Brent
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  #58  
Old 02-04-2017, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by orly57 View Post
You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.
And if you look and still can't see it you, you still can't take off for it.
I might even go as far as to say even IF they did see the before picture, it is STILL graded correctly today.
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  #59  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:00 AM
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My guess is that this card has had significant chemical intervention, in which case it is not a "small small" matter as Brent suggests. I hope I am wrong.

And I will go further to say that if he is aware that the card was restored/altered to make a significant difference in its appearance and grade, he is withholding a material fact.
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  #60  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:03 AM
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Here we go again... nothing at all new here... card has been embellished...it is obvious to anyone with decent vision let alone the foremost grading company in the world. The card is over graded it has obvious remnants of what used to be there it is not a seven and should not be a seven. And it seems some people are now on PSA's payroll!!
  #61  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:03 AM
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My guess is that this card has had significant chemical intervention, in which case it is not a "small small" matter as Brent suggests. I hope I am wrong.
I have no idea, but to just throw out "significant chemical intervention" is a bit reckless in my view. Heck, who knows, maybe distilled water did it.
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  #62  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:03 AM
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I would suspect that they would have to tag it as "altered" if they saw the transformation no? And a 7 with that centering is a stretch in my opinion. I just don't think that I or any of us get a 7 on that card if we sent it in. And why no qualifier on the stain? In this case, the whole card is stained except for the two light areas.
  #63  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
Here we go again... nothing at all new here... card has been embellished...it is obvious to anyone with decent vision let alone the foremost grading company in the world. The card is over graded it has obvious remnants of what used to be there it is not a seven and should not be a seven. And it seems some people are now on PSA's payroll!!
This
  #64  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
Here we go again... nothing at all new here... card has been embellished...it is obvious to anyone with decent vision let alone the foremost grading company in the world. The card is over graded it has obvious remnants of what used to be there it is not a seven and should not be a seven. And it seems some people are now on PSA's payroll!!
Someone can't give an honest opinion now without being accused of being on a payroll? Are you in the media LOL...?
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  #65  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:10 AM
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I don't think he meant you Leon. If he did, I withdraw my approval of that portion of the post.

Last edited by orly57; 02-04-2017 at 09:15 AM.
  #66  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:17 AM
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I don't think he meant you Leon. If he did, I withdraw my approval of the post.
I think it is great to share differing opinions.
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  #67  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orly57 View Post
You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.
++
  #68  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
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I have no idea, but to just throw out "significant chemical intervention" is a bit reckless in my view. Heck, who knows, maybe distilled water did it.
Water is still a chemical
  #69  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:28 AM
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Water is still a chemical
Ok, got me there. But most collectors as you well know, in polls done on this board, have not had the same disdain for water as they have for anything else. And I agree with that sentiment.
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  #70  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:32 AM
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According to someone whose opinion I respect highly, the distilled water thing is wishful thinking.

"Your post about the card is essentially correct. It has undoubtedly been submerged in a caustic chemical such as bleach in order to remove the toning and obscure the lighter, untoned areas on the front and back. The type of chemical that has been added has altered the chemical composition of the card and will likely cause the fibers in the cardboard to degrade over time."

This person also believes improvement was made to the corners, based on his close examination of the respective scans.
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  #71  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:33 AM
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Just as reckless as your other post. Who is the person? And I think your person is entirely wrong too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
According to someone whose opinion I respect highly, the distilled water thing is wishful thinking.

"Your post about the card is essentially correct. It has undoubtedly been submerged in a caustic chemical such as bleach in order to remove the toning and obscure the lighter, untoned areas on the front and back. The type of chemical that has been added has altered the chemical composition of the card and will likely cause the fibers in the cardboard to degrade over time."

This person also believes improvement was made to the corners, based on his close examination of the respective scans.
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Last edited by Leon; 02-04-2017 at 09:33 AM.
  #72  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:34 AM
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If it will cause long-term deterioration of the card, this goes from a harmless fix, to a full-blown scam.
  #73  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
Here we go again... nothing at all new here... card has been embellished...it is obvious to anyone with decent vision let alone the foremost grading company in the world. The card is over graded it has obvious remnants of what used to be there it is not a seven and should not be a seven. And it seems some people are now on PSA's payroll!!
++This. I guess I see this as black and white. It's altered, period. don't care if it's chemicals or water. But this is not my world of buying, so can't proclaim to know how it affects the market.

I don't see how this can be good for the hobby. It has all the appearances of fraud and deception. Heck, even PSA can't figure it out.

If someone was doing this to the cards I buy (early 70's PSA 9's), I would be disgusted.

BTW, PSA pooffed the thread over there. Someone posted a really nice pair of photos showing both cards side by side. Can someone do that here within the thread?
  #74  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:51 AM
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And who said SGC cards wouldn't cross to PSA?
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  #75  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Beastmode View Post
++This. I guess I see this as black and white. It's altered, period. don't care if it's chemicals or water. But this is not my world of buying, so can't proclaim to know how it affects the market.

I don't see how this can be good for the hobby. It has all the appearances of fraud and deception. Heck, even PSA can't figure it out.

If someone was doing this to the cards I buy (early 70's PSA 9's), I would be disgusted.

BTW, PSA pooffed the thread over there. Someone posted a really nice pair of photos showing both cards side by side. Can someone do that here within the thread?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SGC 4 Joe.jpg (57.3 KB, 957 views)
File Type: jpg PSA 7 Joe.jpg (78.5 KB, 1044 views)
  #76  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:55 AM
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Thanks
  #77  
Old 02-04-2017, 10:11 AM
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As long as there are no long term effects to the card, I have no problem with it. And, until someone can prove it was more than just a soaking in water (which is acceptable in our hobby), then you're just making assumptions. That said, I do think the grade is a little generous. Looks more like a 6 to me.

Oh, and to blame PWCC for selling it just shows you have an axe to grind wirh Brent.
  #78  
Old 02-04-2017, 10:15 AM
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I don't see anything wrong with soaking cards and other stuff out of scrapbooks and albums with water. I've done it myself many times, though not with anything expensive.

If it doesn't harm the card, and releases it from it's jail. No harm, no foul.

THAT, is not a product of water restoration, distilled or otherwise. The first time, in the REA auction. Yes. No biggie.

To bump it up to a (7)? You could soak an old piece of paper/cardboard with that much toning for days, and it wouldn't come out that clean......and even if it did, the paper would have soaked too much water into it's fibers for too long to recover to it's original state. Like stretching the rubber band in your underwear for too long.

Just my opinion, but I think it's pretty "Cut & Dry"

See what I did there?
  #79  
Old 02-04-2017, 10:27 AM
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I knew I was setting myself up for that! Well played, sir. Well played indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Republicaninmass View Post
What if all it needed was a little wet sand and buff?
  #80  
Old 02-04-2017, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
As long as there are no long term effects to the card, I have no problem with it. And, until someone can prove it was more than just a soaking in water (which is acceptable in our hobby), then you're just making assumptions. That said, I do think the grade is a little generous. Looks more like a 6 to me.

Oh, and to blame PWCC for selling it just shows you have an axe to grind wirh Brent.
On a card whose appearance has changed that much, and in the manner it has changed, what is your basis for assigning the burden of proof to those who believe more than water is involved? From my perspective the burden is on those who claim it's only water.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 02-04-2017 at 10:42 AM.
  #81  
Old 02-04-2017, 10:44 AM
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Backs.

Personally, I am not really sure what to think of all this?
One could use various scenarios to justify either case, but with that being said, I believe there are unwritten rules (Not that any rules really technically exist anyways, that I'm aware of?) within the hobby that say anything more than a water soaking, is a fake, forgery or altered card.

I do agree, this card is not a 7, considering those still visible marks on the card, but like a lot of things I have seen from PSA in my relatively short time here, is the fact, when you think you have this grading thing down pretty good, another wrench is thrown into the mix.
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File Type: jpg SGC 4 back.jpg (63.9 KB, 819 views)
File Type: jpg PSA 7 Joe back.jpg (73.5 KB, 818 views)
  #82  
Old 02-04-2017, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
On a card whose appearance has changed that much, and in the manner it has changed, what is your basis for assigning the burden of proof to those who believe more than water is involved? From my perspective the burden is on those who claim it's only water.

Correct. IMO, disclosure is the problem here. This card should have an asterisk on it, just like Barry Bonds.

Last edited by Beastmode; 02-04-2017 at 11:28 AM.
  #83  
Old 02-04-2017, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
On a card whose appearance has changed that much, and in the manner it has changed, what is your basis for assigning the burden of proof to those who believe more than water is involved? From my perspective the burden is on those who claim it's only water.
Peter,

Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe that the stains in the REA scan are more pronounced than they really are? Maybe it was the scanner settings? I'm not saying that the card hasn't been cleaned. It has. But I am saying that maybe the card wasn't that bad to begin with. Maybe it was the scanner? Let me give you an example. Below is a post card that I purchased from Sterling a few months back. I wanted the post card, I was willing to live with the heavy stains. However, when I got the card in hand, the stains were barely noticeable. The only thing I could think of was that maybe Lee's scanner settings made the stains appear worse than they really are. Later, I'll scan it with my own scanner and show you the difference. You'll swear it was cleaned. But I can tell you it's the honest truth that I didnt do anything to the card at all. So, when you say "the appearance has changed that much..." maybe it really hasn't changed all that much? Again, I'm not suggesting that it hasn't been cleaned. It has. But I am suggesting that maybe the stains weren't as bad as REA's scanner made them out to be. Then again, all that sounds too complicated. I guess its just easier to blame GWTS, PSA, PWCC and everybody else, right?



  #84  
Old 02-04-2017, 11:38 AM
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David, as I said before, I hope this involves water only. But I believe that is wishful thinking at this point, especially as this appears to be not a simple matter of a stain being removed, but widespread toning.

I have not said a word about PSA.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 02-04-2017 at 11:40 AM.
  #85  
Old 02-04-2017, 11:54 AM
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Some of you guys really need to get a life!
The card is in a PSA 7 Holder now, get over it. It's obvious some of you are the types that are still whining over the election.
Call Joe Orlando and take it up with him.
You've all certainly put my investment with this card at a high risk due to all this.
Thank you!
Yes I am the consignor of the card, I purchased it at Goldin Auction for what I thought was a very decent price.
I am a card flipper, I don't hold on to any card I own.
I consigned this card to hopefully make a few bucks. I did not have any knowledge of all the issues many of you have on this thread.
I watch you guys periodically, all you do is bitch about everything. Especially cards you can't have.
Please give this hobby a break!
  #86  
Old 02-04-2017, 11:59 AM
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  #87  
Old 02-04-2017, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
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How did you clean the card?
That's not fair to John, he bought it out of Goldin where it was already PSA graded, not out of REA.
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  #88  
Old 02-04-2017, 12:02 PM
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Thank you Peter!!
  #89  
Old 02-04-2017, 12:03 PM
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Heck, I even had the thing reholdered.
If you look at Goldins photo it is in an older holder with no reverse bar code.
  #90  
Old 02-04-2017, 12:03 PM
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1. PSA blew it with the grade. How could they not see different shades of color with whatever device they look at it through. It looks borderline for being off center. Plus, not putting any kind of qualifier on the card just screams out that a favor was done for whoever the consignor was.

2. PWCC, already set a precedent earlier last year when someone posted they had bought and won a PC796 Honus Wagner card which they advertised as being power erased and it was certified by SGC as authentic. The new buyer was unsure of it and PWCC allowed a return on it for full refund.

I imagine the future winner of the PWCC 36 DiMaggio won't even know about this thread. If they do, it wouldn't shock me if they would want to return it for full refund as PWCC has not updated their description about the card for full disclosure. I see Brent has acknowledged this now.
  #91  
Old 02-04-2017, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orly57 View Post
You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.
Orlando, too true, and perhaps typifies the eternal conflict between buyer and seller, particularly for an amazing card like the WWG JD RC. Where I get lost in the process is what differentiates what is thought of as harmless touch-ups and what becomes, gulp, restoration. I kinda always believed that if the cardboard remained undisturbed, no trimming, no corner restoration etc., then it was ok to sell as long as it was disclosed the card had been superficially improved. Of course, grading impacts all of that. Who knows?
  #92  
Old 02-04-2017, 12:25 PM
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BeanTown BeanTown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
Orlando, too true, and perhaps typifies the eternal conflict between buyer and seller, particularly for an amazing card like the WWG JD RC. Where I get lost in the process is what differentiates what is thought of as harmless touch-ups and what becomes, gulp, restoration. I kinda always believed that if the cardboard remained undisturbed, no trimming, no corner restoration etc., then it was ok to sell as long as it was disclosed the card had been superficially improved. Of course, grading impacts all of that. Who knows?
Do, you think that PWCC should update their auction of this new information about the card? It seems common practice that other reputable auction houses do this as they learn of things that could affect the sale both good and bad.
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Old 02-04-2017, 12:57 PM
Yoda Yoda is offline
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Originally Posted by BeanTown View Post
Do, you think that PWCC should update their auction of this new information about the card? It seems common practice that other reputable auction houses do this as they learn of things that could affect the sale both good and bad.
If PWCC had prior knowledge that the card had been improved upon when consigned, then absolutely they should have disclosed such fact in their description. Good call.
  #94  
Old 02-04-2017, 01:21 PM
Beastmode Beastmode is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanTown View Post
Do, you think that PWCC should update their auction of this new information about the card? It seems common practice that other reputable auction houses do this as they learn of things that could affect the sale both good and bad.
Really? First, which auction houses are reputable? let's start there.
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Old 02-04-2017, 01:27 PM
aloondilana aloondilana is offline
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As mentioned earlier. I, as the buyer had no idea about this cards past. I purchased a PSA 7 and that's what the card is.
Cards get crossed all the time are all sellers supposed to disclose the former grade and or grading company that graded it?
eBay would be overloaded with disclosures if that we're the case.
Now I do understand the grade has jumped from a 4-7 but the principle is the same.
The bottom line here is regardless of its past it is now in a PSA 7 holder.
Last I checked PSA is also the premier grading company.
Furthermore, unlike all of you, I have experience purchasing this card, should I go cry to goldin about this?
In fact, even if goldin disclosed this issue, I still would have made my purchase.
What I got is what I purchased. Psa 7.

Last edited by aloondilana; 02-04-2017 at 01:33 PM.
  #96  
Old 02-04-2017, 01:31 PM
Yoda Yoda is offline
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In a post Mastro world, every auction house should act in an integral manner (not saying they all do) and inform any and all information about cards consigned if they have all the facts disclosed beforehand I am not going to attempt to piggyback on this thread to start on the pros and cons of the various houses except to say I have my favorite, where I do some pretty serious consigning, and that is FTLG. They are pros. No BS. Let's just get the best we can in an ethical manner and make you some money.
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Old 02-04-2017, 01:33 PM
Beastmode Beastmode is offline
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Seems to be some messenger killing in this thread. OP made an observation, now there's a great discussion. The only whining I see is the folks that want to sweep this under the rug.

Seller of card already admitted he's a flipper, so I'm sure he knows the risk of buying and selling these types of cards. Comes with that territory, and one of the reasons I don't buy pre-war cards. I don't know enough about them nor what is or isn't acceptable as an alteration.

It's clear to me with the lack of review by PSA, it's buyer beware for these cards.

The current auction is almost break even for seller. He's smart enough to list with the best auction house in the business. And he's benefiting from the a-hole 3rd underbidder with 10 retractions who is string bidding.
  #98  
Old 02-04-2017, 01:49 PM
PhillipAbbott79 PhillipAbbott79 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sean1125 View Post
,
This is the same response you will get 100 percent of the time.
  #99  
Old 02-04-2017, 03:17 PM
dariushou dariushou is online now
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This card will likely be won by one of pwcc's disciples and then auctioned off in a few more months at a lower price, but still at a very handsome profit. I see S***N is shilling it up. i think i've written about him in many previous posts...loves to shill those pwcc auctions.

This card has undoubtedly been doctored. I think more than just water, but i think this is besides the point. The stain is crystal clear even on the doctored version. If I sent that card in it would be a 4 or 5 at best. No way do I get that through to PSA and get a 7. Not in a thousand years. This stinks like you know what!
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Last edited by dariushou; 02-04-2017 at 03:18 PM.
  #100  
Old 02-04-2017, 03:29 PM
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Everyone wants to talk up PWCC shills, but I got to tell you I think their last few auctions came in light on most of what I was looking at. When I look at VCP, I see a lot of things of theirs recently with weak prices. I consigned to them once and wont do it again. All they do is list on eBay and mumble " one of 150,000 things we are selling . . . worthy of consideration . . . " Hell I can do that without their help.


At least the real AHs make an effort to market something nice. Have stuff in auctions now and next month and in neither situation did I pay any commission. Brockleman right now. No seller's commission and they did a nice job writing my stuff up.

Last edited by Snapolit1; 02-04-2017 at 03:30 PM.
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