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  #6801  
Old 10-26-2022, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domer05 View Post
Right on! I knew you'd have some answers for us from the football side of the house.

Is this Bills pennant full size? Marc's 1964 catalogue suggests that Keezer's/American Knitwear's offering was limited solely to 5" x 12" minis. (No mention of any other sizes.)
The Oilers I have above is full size, and identical in design to the 5 x 12. As rare as the minis are, the full size ones seem even more rare. I think I've seen the Oilers and the Packers. Fballguy has a pic of a packers fan with one at a Super Bowl. And I think Mark has/had the Steelers. That's all I've seen.

I'd think that the Bills above is older, and not part of the same series. It does not match style wise.

Edited: So, I just found a copy of the Bills mini pennant on Worthpoint. See below. And it has an American Knitwear stamp. So, I guess that answers that for the mini pennants (and their large counterparts). Not sure about Fballguy's Bills pennant.
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File Type: jpg Bills American Knitwear.jpg (55.9 KB, 450 views)
File Type: jpg Bills American knitwear stamp.jpg (56.1 KB, 447 views)
File Type: jpg American knitwear stamp.jpg (73.0 KB, 455 views)

Last edited by bocca001; 10-26-2022 at 05:37 AM.
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  #6802  
Old 10-26-2022, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by bocca001 View Post
Also found the white sox
That's a really nice pennant. I love the look of it.

Are those Baseball Keezer pennants mini pennants like the football or full size?
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  #6803  
Old 10-26-2022, 06:00 AM
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JR has a different Keezer Yankees on ebay than the one shown in Erikís collage. Itís rough.
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  #6804  
Old 10-26-2022, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domer05 View Post
Right on! I knew you'd have some answers for us from the football side of the house.

Is this Bills pennant full size? Marc's 1964 catalogue suggests that Keezer's/American Knitwear's offering was limited solely to 5" x 12" minis. (No mention of any other sizes.)
Yes...Full size. I can send exact measurements and a pic of the stamp when I get home this weekend. I didn't compare the stamp to baseball Keezers I have, but at first glance it looks just like the baseball stamp. Not sure if the stamp evolved over the years.

Marc...Your large Oilers and my Bills have the same stiff non-"felt" tassels.
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Last edited by Fballguy; 10-26-2022 at 07:41 AM.
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  #6805  
Old 10-26-2022, 07:46 AM
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That strange tassel material (and sometimes spines) seems to suggest that they came from the same era, probably early 1960s.

Gary- the baseball Keezer ones I have been posting (e.g., White Sox) are full size.

Last edited by bocca001; 10-26-2022 at 07:47 AM.
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  #6806  
Old 10-26-2022, 09:18 AM
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These are all stamped American Knitwear. All mini pennants.
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File Type: jpg Pirates american knitwear.jpg (60.1 KB, 446 views)
File Type: jpg Vikings American Knitwear.jpg (52.1 KB, 451 views)
File Type: jpg Chiefs American knitwear.jpg (51.3 KB, 442 views)
File Type: jpg Red wings American knitwear.jpg (57.8 KB, 437 views)
File Type: jpg Jets American knitwear.jpg (54.2 KB, 440 views)
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  #6807  
Old 10-26-2022, 08:47 PM
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Wow, nice find Marc. Who knew all you had to do was search for "American Knitwear" (rather than Keezer) pennants?
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  #6808  
Old 10-26-2022, 10:05 PM
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That Pirate mini is different from the normal, full size Pirate we always associated with Keezer. Come to think of it, it seems awfully consistent with Marc's SF Giants pennant, bearing no mark, but believed to be by Keezer/American Knitwear.

Both are 5" x 12".

Doesn't this suggest there's a whole set of baseball 5" x 12" minis by Keezer/American Knitwear with new artwork, not seen on older full size Keezers?
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File Type: jpg Screenshot 2022-09-18 105737.jpg (116.4 KB, 437 views)
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2022-10-26 193438.jpg (118.3 KB, 444 views)
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  #6809  
Old 10-27-2022, 09:57 PM
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Default Hey, pennant guys

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Originally Posted by bocca001 View Post
Erik- in my opinion, the football Keezer pennants are similar to this Astros pennant (which also has no Keezer stamp). Same materials and layout.

I've also wondered about this very rare Giants mini pennant being Keezer. It shares some features of these others, but is not exactly the same.

I agree - I think the Astros and Oilers may be from the same manufacturer. They look similar to me. I also wonder if the California angels pennant c. late 1965 or c. 1966 is from the same set? In my opinion it could be.

Originally, I didnít think Robís Bills was from the same set since it had no name beneath the mascot, but the LA angels pennant below doesnít have the team name either, but it is clearly of the same design as the California version. So it could be an earlier version (pre 64 brochure)?




Last edited by erikc21; 10-27-2022 at 10:10 PM.
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  #6810  
Old 10-27-2022, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domer05 View Post
That Pirate mini is different from the normal, full size Pirate we always associated with Keezer. Come to think of it, it seems awfully consistent with Marc's SF Giants pennant, bearing no mark, but believed to be by Keezer/American Knitwear.

Both are 5" x 12".

Doesn't this suggest there's a whole set of baseball 5" x 12" minis by Keezer/American Knitwear with new artwork, not seen on older full size Keezers?

Those two absolutely could be from the same set!
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  #6811  
Old 10-30-2022, 10:32 AM
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Here's another definite Keezer. It's a shame the vast majority of these football Keezers are mini's.
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  #6812  
Old 11-01-2022, 02:33 PM
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Default Jackie Robinson barnstorming pennant

Here are a couple photos of my Jackie Robinson 1953-54 barnstorming pennant on display at the Jackie Robinson Museum in NYC. It's displayed right below a 1997 50th anniversary pennant, and right next to a 1949 Welcome Dodgers banner that is high up on my wish list. I haven't made it to see the museum in person yet, buy hopefully will soon. I know several MLB teams have toured the museum when they traveled to NY since it opened.

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1953 Jackie Robinson all-star displayed at museum 2 resized.jpg1953 Jackie Robinson all-star displayed at museum resized.jpg
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  #6813  
Old 11-01-2022, 07:33 PM
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Here are a couple photos of my Jackie Robinson 1953-54 barnstorming pennant on display at the Jackie Robinson Museum in NYC. It's displayed right below a 1997 50th anniversary pennant, and right next to a 1949 Welcome Dodgers banner that is high up on my wish list. I haven't made it to see the museum in person yet, buy hopefully will soon. I know several MLB teams have toured the museum when they traveled to NY since it opened.

Rick

Attachment 540939Attachment 540940
Thatís awesome. What a great pennant and the condition is spectacular. Any idea if there is UV protection on that glass or the holder? I only ask because those pennants fade so easily, I canít imagine there is a more pristine version of that in existence.
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  #6814  
Old 11-01-2022, 10:09 PM
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Thatís awesome. What a great pennant and the condition is spectacular. Any idea if there is UV protection on that glass or the holder? I only ask because those pennants fade so easily, I canít imagine there is a more pristine version of that in existence.
Yes, itís protected. I would be surprised if any newly constructed major museum didnít use UV glass these days. Iíve been loaning items to museums for a while now and never had an issue. On the other hand, I have a friend who loaned a baseball glove to the Baseball HOF for 5 years, and the markings on the glove were certainly faded when it was returned. He thought it was displayed in UV glass, but who knows for sure.

Rick
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  #6815  
Old 11-03-2022, 06:14 AM
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Great stuff Rick. I personally use all LED lights as well. Youíre a lot braver than I loaning your stuff out. Itís always great to share, but few people treat our items like we would treat them. I would be worried to no end.
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  #6816  
Old 11-03-2022, 07:38 AM
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The. Choices for a World Series Pennant in Philly are weak
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  #6817  
Old 11-03-2022, 07:40 AM
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The. Choices for a World Series Pennant in Philly are weak
How much do those depreciate once you take them off the rack? 100%?
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  #6818  
Old 11-03-2022, 12:00 PM
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Great stuff Rick. I personally use all LED lights as well. Youíre a lot braver than I loaning your stuff out. Itís always great to share, but few people treat our items like we would treat them. I would be worried to no end.
Jason, yeah, I do worry the whole time they are gone that they will return just as they left. I try to deal with major museums only in the hopes they know what they are doing. I have turned down requests when I don't know the organization very well. My biggest concern was when I lent items to Dodger Stadium for their pop-up museum since I knew they used florescent lights and there were a lot of windows. But all of my exhibits had UV filtering acrylic to protect them, and the exhibit was only for a couple of months. I enjoy sharing items from my collection, and I guess that outweighs my concerns for the slight risk they will be damaged in some manner.

Rick
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  #6819  
Old 11-03-2022, 12:06 PM
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Yeah, I enjoy sharing stuff too. Wish caretakers and historians cared as much as we do.
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  #6820  
Old 11-03-2022, 02:28 PM
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Rick, youíre a better man than I.

I wonít even leave a valued piece with a professional framer, in the fear theyíll ďfĒ something up. I must have at least 300 framed pieces, and have done every single one myself.
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  #6821  
Old 11-04-2022, 08:39 PM
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Same here Mark.
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  #6822  
Old 11-06-2022, 01:56 PM
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Not. Vintage. (Late 70s repro)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/26597641274...-uJYQ&LH_BIN=1
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  #6823  
Old 11-06-2022, 07:11 PM
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The mini-version of the pennant pictured below.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12558362571...Q&LH_Auction=1

An ugly pennant, for sure. I assumed Ad Flag until recently noticing that the lettering is distinctly WGN.
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  #6824  
Old 11-06-2022, 08:49 PM
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Default Hey, pennant guys

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Originally Posted by thetahat View Post
The mini-version of the pennant pictured below.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12558362571...Q&LH_Auction=1

An ugly pennant, for sure. I assumed Ad Flag until recently noticing that the lettering is distinctly WGN.

Disagree, Greg. I think thatís beautiful! You own the full sized version?

Last edited by erikc21; 11-06-2022 at 08:50 PM.
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  #6825  
Old 11-07-2022, 06:21 AM
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Thatís ErikísÖ.
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  #6826  
Old 11-07-2022, 06:59 AM
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Thatís ErikísÖ.

Hmmm, I think Gregís correct. I am selling about 20 vintage Angels pennants on eBay (a few sold) And his keen eye recognized this one, but the others are all vintage. Iíll adjust the listing. Thx for bringing it up!
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  #6827  
Old 11-07-2022, 07:03 AM
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Hmmm, I think Gregís correct. I am selling about 20 vintage Angels pennants on eBay (a few sold) And his keen eye recognized this one, but the others are all vintage. Iíll adjust the listing. Thx for bringing it up!
Hey Erik! Yikes Ö Didnít know that was you! Thatís a nice batch of Angels pennants you have Ö
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  #6828  
Old 11-07-2022, 07:06 AM
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Disagree, Greg. I think that’s beautiful! You own the full sized version?
Yes I got it about 7-8 years ago. The graphic is horrifying. If I hung this in my room as a kid I’d probably have nightmares.

Last edited by thetahat; 11-07-2022 at 07:06 AM.
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  #6829  
Old 11-14-2022, 12:16 AM
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Here's a seller with some good prices...... if you could only move that pesky decimal point to the left, that is...

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr...ates%20pennant
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  #6830  
Old 11-14-2022, 04:45 AM
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This is an amazing thread and with over 1.4 million views. Wow

Just wondering is this one of the longest and most viewed threads?
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  #6831  
Old 11-14-2022, 06:35 AM
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Here's a seller with some good prices...... if you could only move that pesky decimal point to the left, that is...

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr...ates%20pennant
I offered to sell him all my late-80s helmet pennants for $50 a piece. That way he could double or triple his money, but no response. If I could get his Browns prices, I'd be posting from an over the water bungalow in Bora Bora full time.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr...owns%20pennant

The funny thing is, one of his best pennants, the Philadelphia Athletics, isn't too unreasonably priced (by his standards). I'm surprised he didn't go with 4 digits.
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  #6832  
Old 11-14-2022, 12:11 PM
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Here's a seller with some good prices...... if you could only move that pesky decimal point to the left, that is...

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr...ates%20pennant
This one is my favorite. Be sure to read the description.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16333780120...fiOYQ&LH_BIN=1

I offered him $60, he countered with $2,850. Kinda like a reverse Pawn Stars haggle!

Last edited by thetahat; 11-14-2022 at 12:25 PM.
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  #6833  
Old 11-14-2022, 05:06 PM
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This one is my favorite. Be sure to read the description.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16333780120...fiOYQ&LH_BIN=1

I offered him $60, he countered with $2,850. Kinda like a reverse Pawn Stars haggle!
Thanks for the much needed laugh. I got mine last year for $69 and free shipping. Guess that means mine wasn't a Salesman's Sample.
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  #6834  
Old 11-14-2022, 05:15 PM
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This is an amazing thread and with over 1.4 million views. Wow

Just wondering is this one of the longest and most viewed threads?
Yes, it is the most viewed and longest on net54 (by far). Pretty amazing that the biggest thread resides on the Memorabilia side. I think that the distant #2 is the "What's Your Monster Number" thread on the Card side.

Last edited by perezfan; 11-14-2022 at 05:16 PM.
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  #6835  
Old 11-14-2022, 10:24 PM
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This one is my favorite. Be sure to read the description.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16333780120...fiOYQ&LH_BIN=1
Notwithstanding that crazy price ... he is correct that his pennant is a (more rare?) variant.

I don't know about the "salesman's sample" logic; but there are some slight differences between the two that make me shake my head, e.g., stitching in the balls, detail in the grandstands, and the presence of the the flag at the tail-end.

I think the better explanation is the maker wanted to print this in white ink on red felt; but, because white ink is more viscous than darker colors, had to use a screen with a lower mesh count and a design with slightly less detail...? I can't come up with any other reason for such a slight variation.
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  #6836  
Old 11-15-2022, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
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Notwithstanding that crazy price ... he is correct that his pennant is a (more rare?) variant.

I don't know about the "salesman's sample" logic; but there are some slight differences between the two that make me shake my head, e.g., stitching in the balls, detail in the grandstands, and the presence of the the flag at the tail-end.

I think the better explanation is the maker wanted to print this in white ink on red felt; but, because white ink is more viscous than darker colors, had to use a screen with a lower mesh count and a design with slightly less detail...? I can't come up with any other reason for such a slight variation.
Great analysis, Kyle. Even though yellow on black makes no sense for the Red Sox, it is a much more attractive pennant. Maybe if the red one wasnít fadedÖ
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  #6837  
Old 11-15-2022, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domer05 View Post
Notwithstanding that crazy price ... he is correct that his pennant is a (more rare?) variant.

I don't know about the "salesman's sample" logic; but there are some slight differences between the two that make me shake my head, e.g., stitching in the balls, detail in the grandstands, and the presence of the the flag at the tail-end.

I think the better explanation is the maker wanted to print this in white ink on red felt; but, because white ink is more viscous than darker colors, had to use a screen with a lower mesh count and a design with slightly less detail...? I can't come up with any other reason for such a slight variation.
Hereís mine, which is an identical copy of the red one in your pic. The one on eBay seems to be a late 40s WGN, based on the spine and tassels. The little flag by the tip appears on other WGNs, there are Tigers pennants with the year written inside. The red versions possibly came later and were maybe copied by another company. The spine, tassels, and stitching are all different from typical WGN pennants.

In light of these findings Iím willing to up my offer Ö I think $80 is about right.
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  #6838  
Old 11-17-2022, 04:10 PM
aelefson aelefson is online now
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I recently acquired the mid 1970s pennants pictured below. Has anyone seen the 1974 Nets pennant before? In my limited online search attempts, I found ones with no date and ones with a crown, but none with a date and no crown. Unfortunately, mine is missing the tip and has some dirt showing.

Alan
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  #6839  
Old 11-17-2022, 07:26 PM
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I recently acquired the mid 1970s pennants pictured below. Has anyone seen the 1974 Nets pennant before? In my limited online search attempts, I found ones with no date and ones with a crown, but none with a date and no crown. Unfortunately, mine is missing the tip and has some dirt showing.

Alan
Alan I donít collect hockey or basketball but I do notice them while looking for baseball. I canít say Iíve ever seen that Nets pennant. Pretty cool!
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  #6840  
Old 11-17-2022, 11:41 PM
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The little flag by the tip appears on other WGNs, there are Tigers pennants with the year written inside.
I'm not sure WGN made this "ball thru the name" pennant series; but, you're correct about the little flag on the tail-end: it was used on other pennants, like this ca. 1947 Jackie Robinson pennant....
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  #6841  
Old 11-18-2022, 04:56 PM
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I'm not sure WGN made this "ball thru the name" pennant series; but, you're correct about the little flag on the tail-end: it was used on other pennants, like this ca. 1947 Jackie Robinson pennant....
I think for sure the Red Sox and Jackie pennant are the same maker, the wide spine, stitching, thin tassels are all identical. One of a few reasons why I think they are WGN: the G in Dodgers is a unique style common to known WGNs. Also, the little flag towards the tip can be found on the Larry Doby pennant; that and the Satchel Paige have the common WGN font. I’m guessing that the company had a special run for early Black players, I think there’s one for Luke Easter, too.

Last edited by thetahat; 11-18-2022 at 05:08 PM.
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  #6842  
Old 11-18-2022, 06:53 PM
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Notwithstanding that crazy price ... he is correct that his pennant is a (more rare?) variant.

I don't know about the "salesman's sample" logic; but there are some slight differences between the two that make me shake my head, e.g., stitching in the balls, detail in the grandstands, and the presence of the the flag at the tail-end.

I think the better explanation is the maker wanted to print this in white ink on red felt; but, because white ink is more viscous than darker colors, had to use a screen with a lower mesh count and a design with slightly less detail...? I can't come up with any other reason for such a slight variation.
Speaking of pennants with minor variances, here's another conundrum for you...

The more common Bum has fine whiskers... let's say about 2 days of growth.

The far rarer version has fewer/courser whiskers, looking like about 4 days of growth.

Other differences include the Cigar Ash, the Hat Brim detail, and the way the hair/sideburn covers his ear. I've always been intrigued by this and own 2 examples of each, though I'd estimate the "smaller whiskers" version outnumbers the other by about 8 to 1. Yet another hobby mystery!
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  #6843  
Old 11-19-2022, 08:19 AM
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Speaking of pennants with minor variances, here's another conundrum for you...

The more common Bum has fine whiskers... let's say about 2 days of growth.

The far rarer version has fewer/courser whiskers, looking like about 4 days of growth.

Other differences include the Cigar Ash, the Hat Brim detail, and the way the hair/sideburn covers his ear. I've always been intrigued by this and own 2 examples of each, though I'd estimate the "smaller whiskers" version outnumbers the other by about 8 to 1. Yet another hobby mystery!
Unsolved Pennant Mysteries, Season 1, Episode 1

Hereís the same bum, in color and with a pimple on his schnoz. Not Trench and possibly not the same company as the other bums you pictured.
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  #6844  
Old 11-19-2022, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Speaking of pennants with minor variances, here's another conundrum for you...

The more common Bum has fine whiskers... let's say about 2 days of growth.

The far rarer version has fewer/courser whiskers, looking like about 4 days of growth.

!
Mark, I think these variations you've noted may have been unintentional. I think they may have been caused by the normal inconsistencies to be expected during the screen printing process--not necessarily something the graphic artist intended.

As we know, "quality control" was kind of absent when these pennants were being cranked out. Differences in screen mesh counts can alter the level of detail seen in the final product ... changes in humidity will affect the drying process ... lighter colored inks perform differently than darker ones. It's not always possible to make perfect copies, one after the next.
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  #6845  
Old 11-19-2022, 09:43 AM
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Also, the little flag towards the tip can be found on the Larry Doby pennant; that and the Satchel Paige have the common WGN font. Iím guessing that the company had a special run for early Black players, I think thereís one for Luke Easter, too.
Yup. These do all appear to be by the same maker....
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File Type: jpg Screenshot 2022-11-18 191843.jpg (62.0 KB, 146 views)
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2022-11-17 223524.jpg (164.8 KB, 145 views)
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  #6846  
Old 11-19-2022, 10:50 AM
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More specimens from the "ball thru the name" series, manufactured by the same maker as the Robinson, Paige, and Doby pennants....
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File Type: jpg Screenshot 2022-11-18 202238.jpg (132.7 KB, 142 views)
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2022-11-19 085154.jpg (37.9 KB, 136 views)
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2022-11-19 085340.jpg (35.1 KB, 138 views)
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2022-11-19 094543.jpg (78.2 KB, 140 views)
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  #6847  
Old 11-19-2022, 11:10 AM
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Mark, I think these variations you've noted may have been unintentional. I think they may have been caused by the normal inconsistencies to be expected during the screen printing process--not necessarily something the graphic artist intended.

As we know, "quality control" was kind of absent when these pennants were being cranked out. Differences in screen mesh counts can alter the level of detail seen in the final product ... changes in humidity will affect the drying process ... lighter colored inks perform differently than darker ones. It's not always possible to make perfect copies, one after the next.
I think it's a different template. Especially when you look at the Bum's hat brim and hair covering the ear. Too much variance to be a simple inconsistency. Also, there is no "inbetween" exemplar.

And look at the difference in lines between his eyes and eyebrows, all of which are all missing on the second example. These are two distinctively different Bum variations.

Last edited by perezfan; 11-19-2022 at 11:16 AM.
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  #6848  
Old 11-19-2022, 02:07 PM
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More specimens from the "ball thru the name" series, manufactured by the same maker as the Robinson, Paige, and Doby pennants....
Agreed. And now here’s why I think they are all WGN. It’s the identical freestyle font. Zoom in on Satchel. Now look at how ‘Wrigley Field’ is written on a known WGN. Same dude. A couple more examples are included that show the same writing style in the roster, along with the same structure (identical spine, tassels).
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File Type: jpg 048EB2F5-2467-4BF9-8012-77E62AD5BEF0.jpg (107.8 KB, 135 views)
File Type: jpg 4EA5A133-8E03-4466-AD75-4FFF95CA435B.jpg (116.4 KB, 134 views)
File Type: jpg 39D8413E-4C50-4E33-803F-8B11A6867331.jpg (195.1 KB, 139 views)

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  #6849  
Old 11-20-2022, 02:33 AM
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Well, if WGN made this "ball thru the name" series, then that would mean they made this ca. 1958 Los Angeles Dodgers pennant as well....

...which looks nothing like WGN's known pennants from the late 1950s. This one's monochrome and features two pairs of tassels. By the late 1950s, WGN's pennants had no tassels; and, they were experimenting with polychromatic designs featuring a Day Glo color palette.

It's a close call; and I can see the resemblance to WGN; but, I think this series may just be by another maker.
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File Type: jpg Screenshot 2022-11-19 095744.jpg (61.1 KB, 119 views)
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  #6850  
Old 11-20-2022, 06:53 AM
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Well, if WGN made this "ball thru the name" series, then that would mean they made this ca. 1958 Los Angeles Dodgers pennant as well....
I'm not so sure about this statement. The graphics on the two monochrome pennants seem like they're a different style/different artist. The graphics for the ball through the name series have more intricate graphics. The 2 monochrome Dodgers pennants seem to be lower quality graphics.

I agree with Greg that the other Ball through the Name pennants look like WGN but the 2 Dodgers pennants are a different manufacturer.
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