A T219 Thread

[G1911]

Any of you gentlemen into T219? Pretty tough, pretty good looking, pretty cheap. My trinity. It hasn’t been talked about much here, mainly a few posts explaining that it is indeed a different set than T218. PSA doesn’t seem to know the difference between these two sets, they tag T218 as T219 and vice versa fairly frequently. I'd title this "The T219 thread", but that's a little presumptuous.

It’s the later of 2 clones of the common T218’s, with only boxers (12 poses excised to cut the set down to 50. ATC/ALC seem to have liked printing in multiples of 25). Unlike T223 and the later T206 clones, the T219’s are the same image quality as their source. The physical size is smaller side-to-side and usually just a little bit taller, not sure why as the T218 cards would fit fine in the HLC and Miners boxes, and are cropped differently.

The missing boxers and their corresponding t218 series are Sailor Burke (1), Charles Eyton (3), Joe Gans (2), George Gardiner (2), Jimmy Gardner (1), Charley Griffin (2), Dick Hyland (1), James J. Jeffries (Drapes) (2), Jack Johnson (Green) (Late 1 and 2), Johnny Summers (Boxing) (3), Johnny Summers (rowing) (3), Eddie Walsh (1). Johnson and Jeffries were presumably to avoid duplication, and Gans was dead. Gardiner was a former champion, but retired. Some of them were pretty good, like the other Gardner brother, but it seems to me the excisions had some thought put into them, some of the weaker fighters, duplicates, and the two who were no longer active.

As they include a selection from all three series, it must come after T218-3 that was issued in early 1911. The Jeffries and Johnson cards were edited on the backs for the July 4, 1910 bout (The Johnson back update mirrors his T227 back text). Possibly a precedent/follow-up to the T227 HLC/Miners partnership? It deductively must be a 1911 or 1912 issue.

They are significantly tougher than T218, but supply seems to far outstrip demand anyways. Honest Long Cut Black is the common back. Honest Long Cut Green is maybe 3x-5x tougher than the blacks, though they usually aren’t even noted as existing when the set comes up. I’m not sure if anyone else cares about them whatsoever. Miners Extra is fairly tough, seems easier than it actually is the last couple of years due to a couple large lot sales and a series of them put up for rather optimistic BIN’s on eBay that just sit. They are easier than T218 Tolstoi’s. The Red Cross are almost impossible, there’s a couple big batches of them and outside of those, good luck.

I still don’t have a type card of the Red Crosses, but am building a set of each of the other 3 backs, for a 150 card run (I have 124 different). I haven’t really made notes to confirm each card exists with each back until recently. I’ve confirmed everything with Honest Long Cut Black, Miners Extra, and Red Cross (that one complete set made the tough one easy for once). I still need to confirm Honest Long Cut Green backs for Coulon, Jeanette, Kaufman, Harry Lewis, Loughrey, Neil, Nitchie, O’Toole, Jack Sullivan, West and Wolgast. I’d be pretty surprised if these didn’t exist, but I’ve learned to never assume with ATC/ALC sets.

Anyone else collect these? Hate them? Thoughts on the backs? Have any of the HLC Green’s I haven’t seen a pic of you’d be willing to share? Rub it in and share a Red Cross?

Here's the 3 backs I do have, plus the Johnson size/crop comparison since he's the only card that seems to get any attention.

[butcher354435]

I really enjoy the T219 issue and have collected and completed the ME and RC sets. The RC backs are very tough and I haven't seen a group of these in several years.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by butcher354435

I really enjoy the T219 issue and have collected and completed the ME and RC sets. The RC backs are very tough and I haven't seen a group of these in several years.

That’s one heck of an accomplishment. I need 5 commons to complete the ME back set. There was a batch of 15-20 beater red crosses on eBay someone got for a BIN of ~$25 a few months ago. They got one nice steal there. Aside from that, I’ve only seen a handful of singles come up the last 3-4 years. Seems most of them are locked down in collections now.

[Exhibitman]

Probably someone has to quit or croak to free up a decent # of Red Cross cards. I guess they are as rare as the baseball version.

[Mark Webster]

Just to confirm HLC green back Kaufman and Nitchie. Mark them as known as seen. 👍

[DaveW]

I don’t really collect the T219s, but I have a few that were in T218 lots. I did notice that the Miner’s Extra Jeannette card has the single “n” name on the back like some of the Hassan T218 versions. Interesting.

B74654DF-38A9-481D-8BBA-680E2F2BF337.jpg

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Mark Webster

Just to confirm HLC green back Kaufman and Nitchie. Mark them as known as seen. 👍

Thank you for sharing and confirming Kaufman and Nitchie! 2 more I got to chase down here

[G1911]

Originally Posted by DaveW

I don’t really collect the T219s, but I have a few that were in T218 lots. I did notice that the Miner’s Extra Jeannette card has the single “n” name on the back like some of the Hassan T218 versions. Interesting.

Attachment 464705

Never thought to check mine, I will see if my Jeannette's carried over the original H30 spelling error or the correction on the other backs tonight.

The 2 Miners Jeannette's on eBay both have the single "n" spelling. No Honest's listed to check out.

Interesting the Miners doesn't seem to have used the later correction, as T219 surely came long after the change was made.

[G1911]

Both my Honest's and my Miners Jeannette use the single "n" spelling as well.

[RCMcKenzie]

I had a near set of low grade mixed ME and HLC that I sold at auction about 10 years ago. I had picked them up 1 by 1 on the cheap, and wasn't too worried about completing the set. I bought 3 Red Cross about 20 years ago from a Festberg auction. I faxed an up-to bid of $750 and won the lot for $750. I thought I was collecting the Red Cross backs, but never added anymore to my collection. I sold them at auction, about 7 or 8 years ago, for about $450.

I think I have about 3 or 4 Red Cross now, including this Attel, that I won for like $375. If it were a baseball card, I could not afford it. I know I saw at least one near set of Red Cross sell at auction in the last 10 years. FWIW

Didn't know about Hull, but obviously had a great collection.

[G1911]

There was the full set of 50 that sold a few years ago.

This lot of 44: https://sports.ha.com/itm/boxing-car...a/7051-80859.s

This batch of 38: https://sports.ha.com/itm/boxing-car...a/7075-81059.s

The eBay batch a few months ago that someone totally stole.

And 1 or 2 others, I think.

As far as I'm aware, most of the batches are not put together by contemporary hobbyists, but are finds kept together. Seems the only chance at completing a set now is this avenue

[Exhibitman]

Best I ever found was 7 at a local show back in the day. They were beaters too; looked like they'd to hell and back.

[orioles70]

I have 158 T219 cards...that includes 2 complete HLC sets and lots of HLC duplicates...the few non HLC cards I have and one of my complete sets are shown

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[G1911]

Originally Posted by orioles70

I have 158 T219 cards...that includes 2 complete HLC sets and lots of HLC duplicates...the few non HLC cards I have and one of my complete sets are shown

Very nice set! Mine sure is a bit rougher. If you ever happen to go through the backs, I'd be much obliged if you could confirm a Green Text Honest Long Cut in either of your sets of any of these gentlemen: Coulon, Jeanette, Harry Lewis, Loughrey, Neil, O’Toole, Jack Sullivan, West and Wolgast.

[orioles70]

Originally Posted by G1911

Very nice set! Mine sure is a bit rougher. If you ever happen to go through the backs, I'd be much obliged if you could confirm a Green Text Honest Long Cut in either of your sets of any of these gentlemen: Coulon, Jeanette, Harry Lewis, Loughrey, Neil, O’Toole, Jack Sullivan, West and Wolgast.

Looks like I have a Loughrey, Neil and Sullivan green back.

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[G1911]

Originally Posted by orioles70

Looks like I have a Loughrey, Neil and Sullivan green back

As promised, I am much obliged . Thank you for sharing these!

[G1911]

Bought a lot of 30 some odd cards (I should stop buying lots of sets I like but have most of the cards already, but I'm an addicted junkie) and breaking it up have found 4 of the 5 remaining blacks I needed. Puts me at 49/50, only Jack Johnson (of course!) to go.

[G1911]

As I mentioned in the Tolstoi thread, the Red Crosses are a different size. I'd never noticed this, but now that I have a couple in hand, the difference is obvious. You can see the image is cropped differently, with the left side cut off. Presumable this is why the backs don't have the standard frame arrangement all the others do.

Here's Frankie Conley with all 4 of his cards, HLC Black, HLC Green (note the striking difference, it's as legit a different back as Hindu Brown and Hindu Red), Miners Extra, and Red Cross on the far right. Look at Conley's right hand in relation to the border; it's not just cutting that makes them smaller, but re-cropping of the image.

I've never seen anyone mention this before, or found a reference in any of the small amount of material publicly available on them. I can't be the first to notice this...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I'll be honest, I don't think I've ever had any of the Red Cross backs. Very cool.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I'll be honest, I don't think I've ever had any of the Red Cross backs. Very cool.

Their extreme scarcity makes this kind of odd, come to think of it. Usually ATC just cut differently when they wanted to shorten a card a little (T42, T206 American Beauty). That they went to this extra work of actually recropping the image for a set that must have had a tiny, tiny print run seems pointless to me. There’s only a sheet or two worth of surviving cards, this couldn’t have had a large press run or have been expected too, as Red Cross does not seem to have been a strong seller, it’s a tough back in all it’s sets (T60, the T206 clone I’m forgetting the designation of, T207 that’s even tougher than these). Weird.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here is the cropping for Kline from T218 to T219 Red Cross. I always kept the few T219 Red Cross that I had in a separate box from the ME and HLC. I had noticed the borderless backs, but not the cropping on the front, and smaller size, until you mentioned it.

[G1911]

Always cool to have an excuse to ask to see Red Crosses. The cropping on Papke is visible, unintentionally, in post 13. Looks like all of them are just cropped tighter on the viewers left side of the card instead of varying to fit the image. The Jack Johnson must look a little weird; he's already tight to the border in the normal T219.

[gfgcom]

Just received these, not high grade, but very rare!!

[G1911]

Wow! That is awesome. Thank you for sharing them. What a dream find

[Exhibitman]

[Exhibitman]

Dave, what's the provenance of this? A collector? Non-collector? Dumpster diver who got lucky?

[gfgcom]

"Supposedly" Social worker helping out an old guy. they were given to her,
then supposedly thrown in the trash and a roommate took them out of the trash
then supposedly she took them back to the guy, maybe not all in this order and he told her to get off his property and take the cards with you, kind of a crazy story.
They were in 9 pocket sheets and clearly had been in there a while the sheets were quite toned.

There were a couple other dealers, I looked them up but forget exactly who they were who expressed an interest as well.

I probably paid too much for them, but I know they are super rare and did not want to let them get away

There are quite a few duplicates, a total of 55 boxers and three flags

[GasHouseGang]

That's certainly a crazy story. I was surprised to see you're in LA. I figured this kind of thing only happens on the east coast where there's much more of the old cards to find (or so it seems).

[gfgcom]

They were sent from Texas, most of the stuff I buy comes from all over the country

[RCMcKenzie]

Did one of you guys win the sgc 40 T219 RC common for $350 the other day? I guess I'm not going for the set for those prices. I bid $88.88 and someone before me had already bid that exact amount, so I stopped bidding. I like these cards in the $100 range, otherwise, I'd rather go for the track cards with a Hassan back for $4.00 and $7.00 shipping.

[G1911]

I was also a losing bidder on the Klaus. I don’t think RC’s can be had for $100 anymore in pretty much any grade; mine have run $150-$225 in the last year. Was surprised to see 3 bidders at $300+.

The Red Crosses are the smallest and worst cropped of the T218/T219/C52 family, objectively the worst of them all. But I can’t help myself from trying to get them anyways!

[Exhibitman]

I struck out too. No inkling it would go that high. Maybe time to auction off the Ketchel?