SPORTS CARD RADIO (anonymus PSA "insider")

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I certainly would...

And as for Dan's point about the fake T206 Signed cards being behind us....

Sure people aren't talking about it as much anymore. But that's largely because of the new bigger revelations of PWCC/PSA taking hold. And even though the fake signed T206s are no longer at the top of the message boards, people DO remember it. And I believe these collectors are far more hesitant to delve into that arena now. I have seen very few examples (if any) since that news broke, and think it will be far more difficult now to get these examples past the autograph experts.

Hopefully the card altering scandal will carry far more specific long-term ramifications for the TPAs, as well as jail time for those who have continually defrauded us.

What did SGC do about the fakes besides close down their autograph division? I don't recall seeing numbers or dollar amounts of fake autos in SGC holders or refunds being given on any of those. A lot of talk about PSA, which there should be, but not much on SGC or BGS who both are in deep in both of these scandals.

[swarmee]

BGS has no grade guarantee, so their buyers are just out of luck. Until they file lawsuits if they choose to. Class action that they are being duped by the appearance of having a fair grading company that is taking payola to give grades to the largest submitters would be one. They are getting skewered on Blowout.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297069

SGC is a small fry (submission numbers wise), but I believe they refunded the first few (unless the auctionhouse did instead) and then stopped refunding and closed their auto auth shop. They did recommend one scammed individual try to get restitution from the fraudster who submitted the card. Then they deleted the "Grade Guarantee" they used to have from their website.
But I'm guessing they're still liable for the guarantee on the cards that were graded while it still existed.

PSA was warned 15+ years ago that they were letting scammers submit cards, and stuck their heads in the sand and let the fraud continue. To me, that is complicit.

[blametony]

Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by blametony

Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.

The fact that they have not taken responsibility for that card should be a warning to everyone that their guarantee is virtually worthless. The owner of the card doesn’t even care that it was cut from a sheet so it’s not like he’s going to go after PSA. I think they’d be safe in issuing a mea culpa but some lawyer somewhere probably has advised them against it.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

The fact that they have not taken responsibility for that card should be a warning to everyone that their guarantee is virtually worthless. The owner of the card doesn’t even care that it was cut from a sheet so it’s not like he’s going to go after PSA. I think they’d be safe in issuing a mea culpa but some lawyer somewhere probably has advised them against it.

The owner has been offer 10 million dollars for the card. The fact that it was cut off a strip instead of coming out of a pack doesn't matter as far as its value. If the value was hurt by Mastro's revelations, you better believe the owner would be holding PSA to their guarantee.

[Rickyy]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

The fact that they have not taken responsibility for that card should be a warning to everyone that their guarantee is virtually worthless. The owner of the card doesn’t even care that it was cut from a sheet so it’s not like he’s going to go after PSA. I think they’d be safe in issuing a mea culpa but some lawyer somewhere probably has advised them against it.

I wish I could just buy that card and turn around and demand that it be regraded as Authentic.

Ricky Y

[mightyq]

no mention of dick towel, this guy could take out any pen/ink mark, most wrinkles and creases that didnt break paper, and the gum/ wax stain on the back, he would do stacks and stacks of the bowmans, the 51's and 52's...i heard he done thousands....i remember someone saying his mantle count was up to 250+ fixed, and this was 2003.....

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by blametony

Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.

That's a good question. The card is in a private collection and the owner as far as we know would rather have it "as is" - mislabeled and all, rather than challenge PSA with their buyback guarantee.

I don't know who owns the "next best" Wagner in the PSA Pop Report, but if I owned it, I would make a big stink about the "trimmed" Wagner as it diminishes the value of the "next best" Wagner. Just my two cents.

[HRBAKER]

I'm not stunned, it's widely known and hasn't seemed to impact the cards value or ability to be sold.
IOW, the market has said it doesn't care up to this point.
Certainly might be a perspective unique to this copy of this card.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by blametony

Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.

They havn't addressed the Wagner issue nor have they addressed WIWAG as it seems to be a part of their business model. Seems to me the only way we will see any comment is when/if it comes in front of a judge.

And the Ideas of March, I love Vehicle and most of the Jim Peterik catalog.
Being from the Chicago area I think I have seen him anywhere from concerts to the local grocery store produce department giving a concert as a part of the store's grand opening.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Promethius88

What did SGC do about the fakes besides close down their autograph division? I don't recall seeing numbers or dollar amounts of fake autos in SGC holders or refunds being given on any of those. A lot of talk about PSA, which there should be, but not much on SGC or BGS who both are in deep in both of these scandals.

SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%

I wonder how that corresponds to the overall percentage of graded cards sold?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by perezfan

SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%

Throw in the modern serial numbered and other others and Beckett starts fairing MUCH worse, to say nothing of the pristine scandal.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by perezfan

SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%

Nice job by those guys! They have uncovered 1.8 million of the 1 Billion out there. Good luck finding the rest.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Nice job by those guys! They have uncovered 1.8 million of the 1 Billion out there. Good luck finding the rest.

Well BO did uncover a ton more just yesterday and today...

Some of them trimmed so thin that it's inconceivable they passed authentication. PSA seems to be hypnotized by Moser's phony rough-cut borders, to the extent that they won't even measure the cards. In most cases, the original card (typically 2 grades lower) is the FAR better looking card.

Their randomly/incorrectly assigned numerical grading has caused the current hobby to become so twisted and backwards, with lots more cardboard on the cutting-room floor.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Well BO did uncover a ton more just yesterday and today...

Some of them trimmed so thin that it's inconceivable they passed authentication. PSA seems to be hypnotized by Moser's phony rough-cut borders, to the extent that they won't even measure the cards. In most cases, the original card (typically 2 grades lower) is the FAR better looking card.

Their randomly/incorrectly assigned numerical grading has caused the current hobby to become so twisted and backwards, with lots more cardboard on the cutting-room floor.

You said it...

[Peter_Spaeth]

IMO the vast majority of card doctoring over the years has been on cards purchased raw, which never will be traced unless TPGs release their submission records which they never will do publicly. And even for cards purchased graded, the universe is just too big to be able to find most of them.

We literally have seen the tip of the iceberg, from an overall hobby perspective.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO the vast majority of card doctoring over the years has been on cards purchased raw, which never will be traced unless TPGs release their submission records which they never will do publicly. And even for cards purchased graded, the universe is just too big to be able to find most of them.

We literally have seen the tip of the iceberg, from an overall hobby perspective.

100% agree !! TPG will never be done by computers the customer base and grading company’s want crack outs, re submissions....it’s all a gamble sometimes worth thousand to the seller and worth millions to the company. Computerized modern grading of cards will never happen imo
Will be interesting to see what happens....

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Nice job by those guys! They have uncovered 1.8 million of the 1 Billion out there. Good luck finding the rest.

That happens in a couple years when the card doctors admit that “all” their submissions over the last 10-15 years contained alterations. Then the $@.8 million becomes $180 million.

[Johnny630]

How late till the graded card market tanks? Next bad recession or will numbers be much lower this time next year in regards to this ? I’m betting on the latter.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

That happens in a couple years when the card doctors admit that “all” their submissions over the last 10-15 years contained alterations. Then the $@.8 million becomes $180 million.

Anybody that doesn't realize there are WAY WAY more card doctors that have not been pointed out and that they all have been submitting loads of altered cards for the last 10-20+ years are clue less.

I still wonder why so many think PSA was just doing a horrible job.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Anybody that doesn't realize there are WAY WAY more card doctors that have not been pointed out and that they all have been submitting loads of altered cards for the last 10-20+ years are clue less.

I still wonder why so many think PSA was just doing a horrible job.

Agree you’re 100% correct

I think it’s more so people don’t care or are covering because they’re holding or pumping/selling PSA slabbed cards. To those guys All that’s cared about is money, sad but factual.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Anybody that doesn't realize there are WAY WAY more card doctors that have not been pointed out and that they all have been submitting loads of altered cards for the last 10-20+ years are clue less.

I still wonder why so many think PSA was just doing a horrible job.

The card entire industry is forever tainted...especially PSA. the most trusted name in sports cards is in on the biggest swindle America has ever seen. It's bigger than Bernie Madoff, IMHO. My friend who is a Producer at Net Flix was asking me questions about the FAKE CARDS SCAM (as he called it) at our weekly poker game. We had 600K already raised for the project in 5 minutes after they heard what kind of wool has been pulled over the sheoples eyes.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

The card entire industry is forever tainted...especially PSA. the most trusted name in sports cards is in on the biggest swindle America has ever seen. It's bigger than Bernie Madoff, IMHO. My friend who is a Producer at Net Flix was asking me questions about the FAKE CARDS SCAM (as he called it) at our weekly poker game. We had 600K already raised for the project in 5 minutes after they heard what kind of wool has been pulled over the sheoples eyes.

The Bernie Madoff scandal was somewhere around $50 billion. Do you really think this is bigger than Madoff? I'm not so sure about that.