Collectors Universe (read PSA)

[Rich Klein]

Was able to secure PPP funds. Here is a part of an article (which I will state is written from the left of center point of view) and note CU is only noted at the very bottom:

https://popular.info/p/32-millionair...who-scooped-up

[rats60]

Link doesn't work.

[swarmee]

It does for me. You just have to scroll down and click "Let me read the article."

But basically, it's a list of the 32 companies who paid their CEOs a million dollars last year that applied for government small business funds.

[MULLINS5]

................

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Was able to secure PPP funds. Here is a part of an article (which I will state is written from the left of center point of view) and note CU is only noted at the very bottom:

https://popular.info/p/32-millionair...who-scooped-up

Could you please tell me what you're trying to argue here?

[perezfan]

I believe he is simply stating that Joe Orlando was paid over one million dollars ($1,040,307) as the CEO of Collectors Universe. And that their PPP Loan amount was $4,204,300.

That's how I am reading it, anyway.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I believe he is simply stating that Joe Orlando was paid over one million dollars ($1,040,307) as the CEO of Collectors Universe. And that their PPP Loan amount was $4,204,300.

That's how I am reading it, anyway.

Most of that (probably over $3 million) will end up being a bailout grant that does not have to be paid back. Doubtful the funds were really needed - just a low interest cash grab loan IMO (anything left over after the first 8 weeks from receiving funds rolls into a 1% loan I believe) and Joe Orlando himself will likely get a free $100k from it. The PPP was supposed to be for small business that need the funds to keep people on payroll and help with some operational expenses. How's CU stock been throughout the pandemic?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

Most of that (probably over $3 million) will end up being a bailout grant that does not have to be paid back. Doubtful the funds were really needed - just a low interest cash grab loan IMO (anything left over after the first 8 weeks from receiving funds rolls into a 1% loan I believe) and Joe Orlando himself will likely get a free $100k from it. The PPP was supposed to be for small business that need the funds to keep people on payroll and help with some operational expenses. How's CU stock been throughout the pandemic?

It dropped significantly (was under $15 for a brief time) but has rebounded a bit, along with the overall market (currently standing at $19.40).

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I believe he is simply stating that Joe Orlando was paid over one million dollars ($1,040,307) as the CEO of Collectors Universe. And that their PPP Loan amount was $4,204,300.

That's how I am reading it, anyway.

Correct -- just stating facts, and nothing more than that. It's a matter worth noting and discussing but I just wanted to post the facts and not stating an opinion on my part.

Rich

[Rich Klein]

For the 2nd Round -- possibly because of the backlash both public companies and places of higher education with huge endowments (Harvard the best known example) -- there will probably be less public companies going after this money and more places like your neighborhood LCS going after this money:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/23/us-i...get-funds.html

Regards
Rich

[Bamacollection]

Good investment or stay away???

[samosa4u]

“Borrowers still must certify in good faith that their PPP loan request is necessary,” the SBA said.

Despite Joe Orlando's salary, we don't really know what kind of financial state CU is currently in. First, let's look at the SlabGate scandal. There are all these lawyers involved, lawsuits, returns, police, etc. And just when you thought things were bad, then boom, COVID-19 came knocking. PSA had to close their doors for about a month. According to a recent update posted on the 21st of April, PSA is slowly starting to reopen their California facility and have brought in a few employees, but they are still far away from being back at full capacity.

[drcy]

My girlfriend's company-- that she works for-- got $$, and the condition was they can't fire anyone. If they fire someone, they have to return the money.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

“Borrowers still must certify in good faith that their PPP loan request is necessary,” the SBA said.

This is from a new guidance posted today. It will be interesting if CU returns the money.

"It is unlikely that a public company with substantial market value and access to capital markets will be able to make the required certification in good faith..."

https://home.treasury.gov/system/fil...-Questions.pdf

[JeremyW]

Seems to me that they don't qualify.

[MULLINS5]

Joe Orlando will get 8 weeks salary paid by the government in bailout money that was meant for small mom and pop shops.

That's about $100k of free money.

Pay it back Joe.

[sbfinley]

Not that I agree with the fact, but they are actually small enough that they didn't need to slide through the loop hole to receive the funds. Like it or not they qualified for paycheck protection as written in the bill and didn't need the multiple location caveat to do so.

[cardsnstuff]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

Most of that (probably over $3 million) will end up being a bailout grant that does not have to be paid back. Doubtful the funds were really needed - just a low interest cash grab loan IMO (anything left over after the first 8 weeks from receiving funds rolls into a 1% loan I believe) and Joe Orlando himself will likely get a free $100k from it. The PPP was supposed to be for small business that need the funds to keep people on payroll and help with some operational expenses. How's CU stock been throughout the pandemic?

Yet, my landscape business, which is barely staying afloat, and haven't laid anyone off {many of my customers are home with more time than money at the moment} couldn't get a dime, keep in mind, I applied the first few days of the Eidl {and had an app in before site crashed} and first day the PPP program were open.

[mantlefan]

The Payroll Protection Program (designed to provide forgivable loans to SMALL Businesses) was gutted by massive payouts to HUGE Fortune 500 companies. Unfortunately that was perfectly legal although it was contrary to the spirit of the law. The bigger banks like Chase made sure their biggest customers got millions while they ignored businesses like mine.

USA Today:

"Some big banks have been accused in lawsuits of giving priority to requests for larger loans that carry heftier fees and come from bigger small businesses that have deeper relationships with the bank and are more likely to purchase other products and services."

The bad press that was generated has prompted some companies like Shake Shack a($10 million) and Ruths Chris ($20 million) to return the funds.

USA Today:

"After numerous reports that Fortune 500 companies and other publicly traded firms were able to access the Paycheck Protection Program, the Treasury Department and Small Business Administration on Thursday issued guidance designed to prevent what critics call favored treatment for well-heeled corporations.:

This week's program states that a company should be prepared to demonstrate to SBA, upon request, the basis for its certification...namely that without the funds their company will be in serious financial difficulty.

USA Today:

"It is unlikely that a public company with substantial market value and access to capital markets will be able to make the required certification in good faith."

Hopefully the second round of PPP will accomplish what the first one failed to do.

Stay tuned....

[BruceinGa]

Yes, the radio news here said that banks brokered the deals for large companies once they discovered the loop hole allowing this. It didn't take long for that money to be gobbled up, leaving none for the small businesses.

[Zact]

The rules of the PPP CAres act explicitly state that the employee salary and benefits are capped at a value of $100k per annum. So a highly compensated employee can only receive a maximum of $8,333.00 compensation per month for the 8 week grant period, and health insurance cost and 401k employer match goes against it.
I don’t have an opinion with regards to whether CU should access the funds as a publicly traded company. The business also had to attest that the grant funds are necessary.

[Exhibitman]

They wrote a convoluted law to do what could have been accomplished much more simply by directly paying 75% of payroll to employees for qualified small businesses for two months and covering up to 25% of payroll in overhead costs directly paid to the businesses. But if they'd done that the banks wouldn't have been able to rake off 5% in admin fees and it would have been perceived as a direct transfer payments to people (something they only do with tax cuts), not as a small business loan, so we get this bizarre 'take it, spend it, apply to get it forgiven' mechanism instead.

My take on the PPP is that the Federal government is making employers into unemployment insurers: It doesn't matter if the same employees are hired or if they even show up, so long as the level of employment (head count and 75% of payroll) is maintained. According to the SBA’s Interim Final Rule:

“...the borrower will not be responsible for any loan payment if the borrower uses all of the loan proceeds for forgiveable [sic] purposes described below and employee and compensation levels are maintained.” [emphasis added]

They don’t even care if you are open or have any trade to speak of, they just want you shoveling the money out the door to employees.

I also think there is a really shitty bit of bureaucratic interpretation going on here. The initial information stated that you could use all of the money for fixed operating expenses at your discretion, including payroll if you actually need it, but the SBA’s Interim Final Rules modified that:

“While the Act provides that PPP loan proceeds may be used for the purposes listed above and for other allowable uses described in section 7(a) of the Small Business Act (15 U.S.C. 636(a)) ... the Administrator... has determined that 75 percent is an appropriate percentage ... This limitation on use of the loan funds will help to ensure that the finite appropriations available for these loans are directed toward payroll protection...”

The reason that interpretation sucks giant elephant ass so badly is that if you are a restaurant, for example, the payroll is the only thing you can control. If you are closed, you still pay your rent and pass-through expenses, interest, etc. That's what small businesses needed help with, not being unemployment insurers. And the spend and hope it gets forgiven? A hell of a risk to take. One of my clients pointed that out to me. I expect that there will be litigation over this eventually--regulators are not allowed to rewrite laws and the SBA explanation can be construed as an admission that the regulators understood the law but decided not to follow it as written.

Honestly, there are so many inconsistencies and holes in this that I don’t think anyone has any definitive answers. For example, it appears that you could take the loan, hire no one, bank the proceeds, pay the fixed overhead (rent and utilities and so on) with it, and then apply for forgiveness of what you actually spent up to the 25% of the loan cap. When the bank then decides what part of the loan is forgiven, you could pay off the balance immediately with the 1% interest accrued to that point and walk away with a few months of free rent and utilities. It also creates a perverse incentive: since you have to shovel the money out the door at no real benefit to your business if you are actually shuttered and with the risk that you might even owe it if the loan isn't forgiven for some reason, your better choice may be to hire no one: your ex-employees can stay on unemployment and you don't risk owing a debt. Or you could hire your family and friends for no-show jobs to fill out the payroll for eight weeks then get it forgiven. Meet my new executive VP of strategic management:



It is a stupid scheme…Sure hope I get my money

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by Zact

The rules of the PPP CAres act explicitly state that the employee salary and benefits are capped at a value of $100k per annum. So a highly compensated employee can only receive a maximum of $8,333.00 compensation per month for the 8 week grant period, and health insurance cost and 401k employer match goes against it.

So Joe Orlando, and others who make $100k/ year at Collector's Universe, will receive a FREE $16,666 + benefits. Even if it is that, vs $100k, that's money taken right of the hands of small business owners who are struggling to pay employees, rent, and utilities during this pandemic. Most small businesses are only asking for $15 to $30,000 to help keep them afloat.

Honestly, this is shameful of Collector's Universe who CLEARLY did not NEED the $4.4 MILLION they received (about $3.4 MILLION GRANT). I know small businesses who can't receive as a whole only what the executives at Collector's Universe are getting, and a couple in my area have to operate at limited to no hours because of it.

[Republicaninmass]

Guess that CLCT stock would probably be a buy.

They had a small staff working, and they still need to keep the lights on.


I'd wager a guess their backlog only has increased. I'm not sure people would be calling and cancelling their orders.

[55koufax]

That in itself is/was the cutoff and I am guessing they are close to that #, although, I believe several "remote" and off-site employees may be independent contractors.

If anyone knows these facts, please chime in.

[55koufax]

My incredibly brilliant Country Club (in CA) has "only" 80 employees and somehow someway they just rec'd their check......$518,000.

Our incredibly inept GM-COO getting paid full salary and will the entire duration of closure.

I think most of us believe the little guys with 10 or less people and at the very least 50 or less should get $$$$ ahead of Big $$$ Co.'s like CU and even smaller entities like 80 employee Golf Clubs.

Do you think CU is gonna follow Ruth Chris' lead or not?

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

So Joe Orlando, and others who make $100k/ year at Collector's Universe, will receive a FREE $16,666 + benefits. Even if it is that, vs $100k, that's money taken right of the hands of small business owners who are struggling to pay employees, rent, and utilities during this pandemic. Most small businesses are only asking for $15 to $30,000 to help keep them afloat.

Honestly, this is shameful of Collector's Universe who CLEARLY did not NEED the $4.4 MILLION they received (about $3.4 MILLION GRANT). I know small businesses who can't receive as a whole only what the executives at Collector's Universe are getting, and a couple in my area have to operate at limited to no hours because of it.

It's not shameful for a company to take the money that they rightfully qualify for, it was shameful the most expensive bill in the history of the country was passed without a recorded vote.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

It's not shameful for a company to take the money that they rightfully qualify for, it was shameful the most expensive bill in the history of the country was passed without a recorded vote.

The funds do not even appear to be being used for PPP purposes. Their NJ site is closed and should either be open or their employees should be getting paid to stay at home without filing for unemployment. And just because they "rightfully qualify" for it does not mean it's not shameful for them to "take" funds that are not needed. No way that company, with their stock numbers and a NJ office closed needs 4.4 million dollars, most of that a free grant.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by cardsnstuff

Yet, my landscape business, which is barely staying afloat, and haven't laid anyone off {many of my customers are home with more time than money at the moment} couldn't get a dime, keep in mind, I applied the first few days of the Eidl {and had an app in before site crashed} and first day the PPP program were open.

Same here, I own a vintage toy store and an ice cream shop. Neither one was able to secure the loan because I just never heard back before the money ran out and I put my applications in very early. These publicly traded companies that went after this money as if it was a cash grab are shameless.

[ronniehatesjazz]

Anyone know the details of the chains that took it... was it some how going to franchisees? That could potentially make sense... or maybe the chains are slashing fees and royalties from the franchisees and using the funds to make up for it?

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

The funds do not even appear to be being used for PPP purposes. Their NJ site is closed and should either be open or their employees should be getting paid to stay at home without filing for unemployment. And just because they "rightfully qualify" for it does not mean it's not shameful for them to "take" funds that are not needed. No way that company, with their stock numbers and a NJ office closed needs 4.4 million dollars, most of that a free grant.

The loans can be used for interest, rents, and utilities as well as payroll. Some of the money would not be forgiven based on the percentage of people laid off compared to the payroll as a whole.

"Need" is a relative term. If a company is eligible to take the money, either as a loan or a forgivable grant, they should do it. They didn't write the law, the politicians did. The same is true for the $1,200 amounts given to individuals. A lot of them have not lost their jobs so it's not logical for them to receive grants. However, they would be fools to not accept it.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

The same is true for the $1,200 amounts given to individuals. A lot of them have not lost their jobs so it's not logical for them to receive grants. However, they would be fools to not accept it.

Not really; the economic stimulus payments are completely separate from the unemployment benefit expansion. The goal of the $1200 is to mail it to people with the hope they spend it. Has nothing to do with being a replacement for lost income.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Not really; the economic stimulus payments are completely separate from the unemployment benefit expansion. The goal of the $1200 is to mail it to people with the hope they spend it. Has nothing to do with being a replacement for lost income.

I agree but the point is that not accepting it because someone else might “need” it more doesn’t make a lot of sense and that’s why I doubt many people will reject receipt.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Same here, I own a vintage toy store and an ice cream shop. Neither one was able to secure the loan because I just never heard back before the money ran out and I put my applications in very early. These publicly traded companies that went after this money as if it was a cash grab are shameless.

+1000
Your business sounds like the “poster boy” for the type of business that this program should be helping.
I wish you and all Small businesses like yours good luck and a speedy return to something close to normal.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

+1000
Your business sounds like the “poster boy” for the type of business that this program should be helping.
I wish you and all Small businesses like yours good luck and a speedy return to something close to normal.

Thank you, Bob.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

The loans can be used for interest, rents, and utilities as well as payroll. Some of the money would not be forgiven based on the percentage of people laid off compared to the payroll as a whole.

"Need" is a relative term. If a company is eligible to take the money, either as a loan or a forgivable grant, they should do it. They didn't write the law, the politicians did. The same is true for the $1,200 amounts given to individuals. A lot of them have not lost their jobs so it's not logical for them to receive grants. However, they would be fools to not accept it.

About 3.5 of 4.4 million is a grant, not a loan. So don't you dare spin it as "some" of the money. The calculations for PPP by CU likely include employee wages and rent from NJ which CU is required to use those funds to reopen business but have remained closed for COVID concerns (which is fine just leave it out of the application). I swear, no moral compass with you. I guess only if it's illegal it's off limits. Wonder how your sick mind thinks - we just got a glimpse.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

The loans can be used for interest, rents, and utilities as well as payroll. Some of the money would not be forgiven based on the percentage of people laid off compared to the payroll as a whole.

"Need" is a relative term. If a company is eligible to take the money, either as a loan or a forgivable grant, they should do it. They didn't write the law, the politicians did. The same is true for the $1,200 amounts given to individuals. A lot of them have not lost their jobs so it's not logical for them to receive grants. However, they would be fools to not accept it.

About 3.5 of 4.4 million is a grant, not a loan. So don't you dare spin it as "some" of the money. The calculations for PPP by CU likely include employee wages and rent from NJ which CU is required to use those funds to reopen business but have remained closed for COVID concerns (which is fine just leave it out of the application). I swear, no moral compass with you. I guess only if it's illegal it's off limits. Wonder how your sick mind thinks - we just got a glimpse.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

About 3.5 of 4.4 million is a grant, not a loan. So don't you dare spin it as "some" of the money. The calculations for PPP by CU likely include employee wages and rent from NJ which CU is required to use those funds to reopen business but have remained closed for COVID concerns (which is fine just leave it out of the application). I swear, no moral compass with you. I guess only if it's illegal it's off limits. Wonder how your sick mind thinks - we just got a glimpse.

Once again, the biggest immorality of it is the Congress not doing a proper vote on the biggest spending bill in history. I oppose printing money to pay current bills which the government has been doing for decades. As for who the bill was intended to help, it was broadly defined as under 500 employees with relaxed rules for certain restaurants and other franchises which normally would not qualify for an SBA loan with the understanding they were hurt very badly by forced government shutdowns. So clearly PSA was intended to be helped by the bill. As for the morality of accepting government grants and loans, it is only moral to accept it if you oppose it and consider it restitution since other people (in this case, future generations) are being forced to pay for it.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Not really; the economic stimulus payments are completely separate from the unemployment benefit expansion. The goal of the $1200 is to mail it to people with the hope they spend it. Has nothing to do with being a replacement for lost income.

Here is an article on the unemployment boost:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/07/polit...mic/index.html

[mantlefan]

NPR on the Small Business Loan Program:

The Lakers basketball team received a $4.6 million loan but decided to give it back, according to a statement from the team.

"Once we found out the funds from the program had been depleted, we repaid the loan so that financial support would be directed to those most in need. The Lakers remain completely committed to supporting both our employees and our community," a statement said.

The Lakers are the eighth most valuable sports team in the world, worth an estimated $3.7 billion, according to Forbes.


SMH. 4.6 mill is pocket change for these guys.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

This is why the comparisons between loans and $1200 stimulus don't hold up. Me taking the $1200 doesn't affect someone else's ability to collect their $1200.

[MooseDog]

Hmm...I just took a very quick look at the CU financials and they reported in Feb to have about $24M in cash and receivables on the books. Clearly they didn't NEED the $4M but what the heck, if the government's giving it away we'll take it, eh?

I hope at least the money goes to putting all the graders and staff back to work as it is supposed to, but I kind of think that $4M is more than needed to keep those folks in magnifiers. Expect the execs will all be made whole with plenty left over.

MEANWHILE, I have a very small one-person company. When the bill was first announced it sounded like exactly what was needed, money for small business owners to either keep paying employees even if they don't actually open, and help with rent.

I did everything "right" and got in fast. My loan amount was for less than 10K. Was left hanging by my bank (Chase) from the first round, then actually turned down by two lenders (this is a guaranteed loan, remember, no risk to the bank) for round 2. One said I hadn't been in business long enough (not true, 3.5 years is longer than required) and the other gave no reason.

Then the sh*t hits the fan about Chase and the other big banks prioritizing their existing customers and letting them get to the front of the line. I see a couple of the public companies that Chase funded got the money before Chase even started taking apps from people like me...Hmm. That certainly explains why Chase wasn't taking apps until like 2-3 days after they were allowed.

There are about 9 self-employed folks in my circle. Men, women, minorities, non-minorities, a very diverse group. All applied, only 1 got funded (just happened to be the one Caucasian in the group BTW ) This seems to mirror the demand nationwide but all of the requests from my circle were for $25K or less. So far in round 2 no one else has gotten funded.

I'm going take a huge hit as I won't have any income for at least two months, possibly up to six, and it's entirely possible I won't have any clients to go back to. I think I'll be OK, I'm pretty resourceful but it's like starting over again at the age of 60 and getting hired at a decent job is probably not going to happen in this environment. I think three of those in my circle will manage OK but I suspect up to 5 of them are going to have to close their businesses and basically lose everything they've built.

This was supposed to be a lifeline for "small", really small businesses but it didn't work out that way and they didn't fix it for round 2. If you play by the rules this is free money thanks to the government, and while the very small number of truly small businesses did get the lifeline, over half the money went to big companies and is STILL going to them.

Most self-employed folks are not eligible for unemployment. Some states like California are now allowing SE and gig workers to apply, which I have done, but the state departments handling claims are just getting hammered.

This is not a dem vs repub thing. EVERYONE involved at the government level screwed this up.

But has become very clear that some pigs are more equal than others.

[whitehse]

In my small Wisconsin town I know of two small businesses, a bakery and one manufacturer who applied for loans of less than 50K (don't know the exact dollar amount) and were shot down despite the fact they met the criteria for these loans. The bakery, in business since 1957 has announced that they are now closing down as they cannot afford to keep the doors open and the manufacturer has said they are likely to close as well.

It is just sad that places like C/U and the Lakers can get this money but the people who need it have no chance and it is causing them to close their doors and putting people out of work. And worse than that, these closures are eroding the basic American small town where the mom and pop places no longer can compete with the bigger kids on the block. You wouldnt think the closure of a bakery would stir up so much passion in a town but this news has hit many of us hard.

[Rich Klein]

Since I started this discussion: I'll place the bow to wrap up this thread and note Collectors Universe has returned the PPP funds.

http://investors.collectors.com/node/13246/html

Regards
Rich