Rough cuts and grading standards

[darwinbulldog]

I'm sure it's been discussed before, and please excuse the choice of card, but it has me wondering if being lenient about rough cut edges from the factory also makes graders lenient with grading the corners. I’ve still never understood why being off-center, which is clearly a factory issue, counts against a card but having rough edges, which is possibly a factory issue, does not. But this is a separate issue. This particular card received a 5. Are they assuming the corner damage is just a product of a rough cut? Is that standard? Is it even possible to do it otherwise without arbitrarily designating one spot as the place where the edge ends and the corner begins?

[RCMcKenzie]

I think they just missed it, or maybe the corner got dinged after they graded it. I think grading is okay for Topps cards, for stuff I collect like n172, T213, etc, I'd just as soon have the card in a cardsaver or toploader.

When I first sent cards off for grading 20 or more years ago, I thought I was sending cards to be examined by someone like DR Cycleback in a lab at MIT. I realized quickly that it was more likely a fry cook working a 2nd job as a card grader.

[Kutcher55]

Around a year ago I had a Cam Neely OPC RC in a PSA 10 that had a moderately jagged left edge. I thought it was ridiculous that it was a 10 and sold the card and now it's worth 5x what it was then.

[perezfan]

The fact that a rough cut isn't punished but off-center is heavily punished shows you just how arbitrary and senseless "professional" grading is. Both are factory traits, and should be treated similarly.

Take their assigned number with a grain of salt. There's very little consistency, and the people grading them devote about as much time as Lucy and Ethel spent on each piece of chocolate on the conveyor belt.

That said, it varies from grader to grader and day to day. But rough-cut corners do tend to get favorable treatment and garner more forgiveness than straight-cut edges... the "affirmative action" of trading cards, if you will.

[Oscar_Stanage]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The fact that a rough cut isn't punished but off-center is heavily punished shows you just how arbitrary and senseless "professional" grading is. Both are factory traits, and should be treated similarly.

Take their assigned number with a grain of salt. There's very little consistency, and the people grading them devote about as much time as Lucy and Ethel spent on each piece of chocolate on the conveyor belt.

That said, it varies from grader to grader and day to day. But rough-cut corners do tend to get favorable treatment and garner more forgiveness than straight-cut edges... the "affirmative action" of trading cards, if you will.

I don't agree that penalizing centering and not cut is arbitrary. If a factory uses a wire to cut cards, it is not avoidable, it's just how they did it at the time. Centering, on the other hand, is a characteristic distributed randomly. They were not able to precisely measure all the time, and sometimes it worked well, other times not. Cards should certainly be penalized for bad centering.

[Oscar_Stanage]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I'm sure it's been discussed before, and please excuse the choice of card, but it has me wondering if being lenient about rough cut edges from the factory also makes graders lenient with grading the corners. I’ve still never understood why being off-center, which is clearly a factory issue, counts against a card but having rough edges, which is possibly a factory issue, does not. But this is a separate issue. This particular card received a 5. Are they assuming the corner damage is just a product of a rough cut? Is that standard? Is it even possible to do it otherwise without arbitrarily designating one spot as the place where the edge ends and the corner begins?

not sure I follow... that is a damaged corner, regardless of the cut. are you saying this card should be less than a 5? I am not sure a corner bend on the back by itself would keep it from being a 5

[forceplay sport]

its possible the TPG just feels that OPC cards all have that bad edge and most of them due , not sure why thats ok and not the other issues .

Originally Posted by Wid_Conroy

I don't agree that penalizing centering and not cut is arbitrary. If a factory uses a wire to cut cards, it is not avoidable, it's just how they did it at the time. Centering, on the other hand, is a characteristic distributed randomly. They were not able to precisely measure all the time, and sometimes it worked well, other times not. Cards should certainly be penalized for bad centering.

Even though it’s a random characteristic it’s very common and impossible to keep sheets perfect on large running offset printing presses. Even though they check sheets regularly throughout the run sheets get by with imperfections before the press can be adjusted. I’ve press checked thousands of jobs over my thirty year career and like trimming it’s common to the printing process.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Wid_Conroy

I don't agree that penalizing centering and not cut is arbitrary. If a factory uses a wire to cut cards, it is not avoidable, it's just how they did it at the time. Centering, on the other hand, is a characteristic distributed randomly. They were not able to precisely measure all the time, and sometimes it worked well, other times not. Cards should certainly be penalized for bad centering.

I understand your point, but the rough cut can vary just as much as centering can. The same card in the set can have a very rough cut one time, and virtually a straight cut the next.

I agree with you, that cards should be penalized for bad centering. But seems like there is far more random leniency and forgiveness with regard to severe rough cuts.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I'm sure it's been discussed before, and please excuse the choice of card, but it has me wondering if being lenient about rough cut edges from the factory also makes graders lenient with grading the corners.

Not at all. I’ve held many PSA 8 and PSA 9 O-Pee-Chee cards, and even though they had rough edges, the corners were pretty sharp. However, keep in mind that some of these cards were definitely worked on!

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I’ve still never understood why being off-center, which is clearly a factory issue, counts against a card but having rough edges, which is possibly a factory issue, does not.

Did PSA change us or did we change PSA? In other words, as the years went by, did more and more collectors start hating OC cards and force PSA to change or was it the other way around? I know that majority of hockey collectors love the rough O-Pee-Chee cuts, but hate OC cards. Hmmm ... maybe PSA is catering to our tastes?

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

This particular card received a 5. Are they assuming the corner damage is just a product of a rough cut? Is that standard?

You’re looking at an older slab. I am not even sure if this card would get the same grade today.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by rcmckenzie

when i first sent cards off for grading 20 or more years ago, i thought i was sending cards to be examined by someone like dr cycleback in a lab at mit. I realized quickly that it was more likely a fry cook working a 2nd job as a card grader.

lol!

Originally Posted by Wid_Conroy

If a factory uses a wire to cut cards, it is not avoidable, it's just how they did it at the time.

O-Pee-Chee did not use a wire to cut their sheets.

[Oscar_Stanage]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I understand your point, but the rough cut can vary just as much as centering can. The same card in the set can have a very rough cut one time, and virtually a straight cut the next.

I agree with you, that cards should be penalized for bad centering. But seems like there is far more random leniency and forgiveness with regard to severe rough cuts.

I think the card posted is being penalized for a rough cut. I think to the extent that there is 'chipping' on the surface near the edges, it is certainly penalized. Perhaps the author can share scans of the front, and clarify what the position is on the card. Is he saying it should be a 4?

With the info provided, it looks like a 5 is reasonable based on the corner and edges that I can see from the back scan.

[Oscar_Stanage]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

lol!



O-Pee-Chee did not use a wire to cut their sheets.

From everything I have read on O-pee-chee focused collector sites, they did wire cut. Perhaps this is a myth similar to the 'first print' blue line? Please educate us and as to how you know this to be the case

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Wid_Conroy

I think the card posted is being penalized for a rough cut. I think to the extent that there is 'chipping' on the surface near the edges, it is certainly penalized. Perhaps the author can share scans of the front, and clarify what the position is on the card. Is he saying it should be a 4?

With the info provided, it looks like a 5 is reasonable based on the corner and edges that I can see from the back scan.

This is the front of the card. My point was that it has pretty heavy damage to the corners (especially the bottom right corner but more noticeable at the bottom left corner of the back scan) and should probably have graded a 3, but that if you compare the corners to the edges and have decided that the edges look just fine then the corners don't seem so terrible.

[Oscar_Stanage]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

This is the front of the card. My point was that it has pretty heavy damage to the corners (especially the bottom right corner but more noticeable at the bottom left corner of the back scan) and should probably have graded a 3, but that if you compare the corners to the edges and have decided that the edges look just fine then the corners don't seem so terrible.

this looks to me to simply be an old-slab issue. Probably is a 3-4 if it was graded today just on the eye-test. And I think the edges and corners do matter in that determination

[vthobby]

Glenn,

Do you own this card? I'm interested in it if you do. Thanks!

Mike

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Wid_Conroy

From everything I have read on O-pee-chee focused collector sites, they did wire cut. Perhaps this is a myth similar to the 'first print' blue line? Please educate us and as to how you know this to be the case

False information is like COVID-19; it spreads everywhere and spreads quickly!

I've spoken to a few guys who worked at the O-Pee-Chee plant in London back in the day, and again, there was no wire. They had different machines in there that were made around the 1950s. Some of the machines cut two strips of cards at a time and one machine cut one strip at a time. The machine that was cutting one strip at a time produced the cleanest cuts.

[Oscar_Stanage]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

False information is like COVID-19; it spreads everywhere and spreads quickly!

I've spoken to a few guys who worked at the O-Pee-Chee plant in London back in the day, and again, there was no wire. They had different machines in there that were made around the 1950s. Some of the machines cut two strips of cards at a time and one machine cut one strip at a time. The machine that was cutting one strip at a time produced the cleanest cuts.

lol, to be honest I never even knew what 'wire cut' meant. any insights on the 'first print' nonsense?

[Jim F]

OPC did not use wires and that Gretzky is a 5 because it has corner wear. That corner wear has nothing to do with the rough cut

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Wid_Conroy

lol, to be honest I never even knew what 'wire cut' meant. any insights on the 'first print' nonsense?

According to a former employee I spoke with, O-Pee-Chee was not doing first, second, third, etc. print runs back when the Gretzky rookie was manufactured. Additional runs were only required when there was a huge demand for more product, and this did not start happening until the late 1980s.

[Leon]

I hadn't read this thread until now and thought it was talking about pre-war cards.

So back to pre war. I guess cards that had coupons (although a D382 coupon hasn't been seen, I don't believe) could be considered rough cut? Or maybe rough tear, in most cases. This one might have been cut.

[Oscar_Stanage]

Originally Posted by Leon

I hadn't read this thread until now and thought it was talking about pre-war cards.

So back to pre war. I guess cards that had coupons (although a D382 coupon hasn't been seen, I don't believe) could be considered rough cut? Or maybe rough tear, in most cases. This one might have been cut.

not sure if this illustrates rough cut, but certainly how the writing blurbs have changed over the years. "A big fellow who throws...."