BBCX wrapping and what it exactly represents..

[55koufax]

Not a huge collector of unopened material, however, I am curious if it is well known what exactly a Steve Hart BBCX wrapper on a box exactly represents...

I would naturally assume it means the product is authentic and unsearched.

Is this correct?

[Jason19th]

You are correct. BCE does an excellent job of certifying that the packs are authentic and not searched. What is important however that BCE cannot and doesn’t claim to be making any statement about the condition of the cards in the pack. There is a YouTube channel called Jabs Family were they shop for cards and open wax (with slots sold to buyers prior to opening). He recently bought a box of 1972 Opechee (sp?). At some point the box must have been in heat or humidity and the gum pretty much killed most of the cards. The YouTuber freaked out and started talking about how disappointed he was with BCE and went on about how he should get some sort of refund. My pint to all of this is BCE is not able to account for what’s in the box other then to say it’s authentic and unsearched. They cannot know about the coalition or the condition of the cards and cannot be expected to be able to do so. When you open wax it’s st your risk

[55koufax]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

You are correct. BCE does an excellent job of certifying that the packs are authentic and not searched. My pint to all of this is BCE is not able to account for what’s in the box other then to say it’s authentic and unsearched. They cannot know about the coalition or the condition of the cards and cannot be expected to be able to do so. When you open wax it’s st your risk

Thank you for your insight.

So I knew all the above. Here is my story of disappointment. Won a lot of (4) BBCX wrapped and authenticated boxes of what I thought to be unopened and unsearched '89 Score FB sets - not packs. I recently opened two diff of the same product of which I had stored in my attic for 30+ years. Hence, I know how this set was packaged and collated within the box. First issue (with Score) is this product was never factory sealed in any way. Of the two of my own I opened, the majority of the contents were well centered and will yield a high rate of PSA Gem Mt 10s. This is in line with a diff factory set box I had purchased in '89 and opened and had several keys graded last year. My only disappointment was the B Sanders came back 9. Virtually every other key and some of the desirable stars commons delivered 10s at almost a 70% clip. The other two I owned since '89 appear that they will deliver much of the same 10 rate.

Now, comes the REA part of this. I opened the 1st REA BBCX box and the contents were not in sync and collated like my others. Huh? Close examination of the 8 HOF RCs and several other hi $$ cards shows nothing but OCs and poorly ctr'd cards that will maybe yield 7 or 8 if PSA grades with NQ. Not only that, NONE of the 8 diff HOF RCs were even close to being placed in proper sequence like my other three boxes I had opened previously. As a matter of fact, one of them was not even there. Missing was a Thurman Thomas rc. Not even in the box! To be certain this box was not just some freaky anomaly I opened one more REA BBCX wrapped box.....

Virtually identical results. Cards totally out of sequence with all keys OC or very poorly ctr'd. This time all 8 diff HOF RCs were at least there (totally out of factory collation), however, other keys were missing! Obviously, contents cherry picked and NOT UNSEARCHED.

I stopped and did not open the other two sets, as I am awaiting to hear back from Brian at REA as to how he wants to handle this.

I thought of contacting Steve Hart, but feel it best to go to my source - REA first. Generally Brian is fair and I believe he will take care of this (and likely give Steve some "feedback" about all this).

[Orioles1954]

Your beef should be with BBCE.

[Jason19th]

Interesting

When you say that score was never factory sealed do you mean that there was never even any adhesive or tape keeping the box closed. If that’s the case I don’t see how you could possible certify something as unsearched

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Originally Posted by 55koufax

Thank you for your insight.

So I knew all the above. Here is my story of disappointment. Won a lot of (4) BBCX wrapped and authenticated boxes of what I thought to be unopened and unsearched '89 Score FB sets - not packs. I recently opened two diff of the same product of which I had stored in my attic for 30+ years. Hence, I know how this set was packaged and collated within the box. First issue (with Score) is this product was never factory sealed in any way. Of the two of my own I opened, the majority of the contents were well centered and will yield a high rate of PSA Gem Mt 10s. This is in line with a diff factory set box I had purchased in '89 and opened and had several keys graded last year. My only disappointment was the B Sanders came back 9. Virtually every other key and some of the desirable stars commons delivered 10s at almost a 70% clip. The other two I owned since '89 appear that they will deliver much of the same 10 rate.

Now, comes the REA part of this. I opened the 1st REA BBCX box and the contents were not in sync and collated like my others. Huh? Close examination of the 8 HOF RCs and several other hi $$ cards shows nothing but OCs and poorly ctr'd cards that will maybe yield 7 or 8 if PSA grades with NQ. Not only that, NONE of the 8 diff HOF RCs were even close to being placed in proper sequence like my other three boxes I had opened previously. As a matter of fact, one of them was not even there. Missing was a Thurman Thomas rc. Not even in the box! To be certain this box was not just some freaky anomaly I opened one more REA BBCX wrapped box.....

Virtually identical results. Cards totally out of sequence with all keys OC or very poorly ctr'd. This time all 8 diff HOF RCs were at least there (totally out of factory collation), however, other keys were missing! Obviously, contents cherry picked and NOT UNSEARCHED.

I stopped and did not open the other two sets, as I am awaiting to hear back from Brian at REA as to how he wants to handle this.

I thought of contacting Steve Hart, but feel it best to go to my source - REA first. Generally Brian is fair and I believe he will take care of this (and likely give Steve some "feedback" about all this).

That is very odd. According to their site they only deal in sealed packs. I have seen them do vending boxes and sets but only when they come from a sealed case.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Originally Posted by 55koufax

Not a huge collector of unopened material, however, I am curious if it is well known what exactly a Steve Hart BBCX wrapper on a box exactly represents...

I would naturally assume it means the product is authentic and unsearched.

Is this correct?

There are 2 types of authentication. Their regular wrapper means the box is complete and all packs are factory sealed. The From A Sealed Case (FASC) means that they received the original intact case of cards and they guarantee they are exactly as you would have gotten from the company when they were released. Boxes that don’t have FASC have all sealed packs but they can come from different boxes. There’s no way to tell if all of the packs in a 1983 Topps box are original to that box. Hope that helps.

[JollyElm]

Did you happen to record yourself opening up the packages (to show there was no subterfuge on your end)? Hope so.

[55koufax]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Did you happen to record yourself opening up the packages (to show there was no subterfuge on your end

No I did not film myself, nor should I ever think this step be a necessity. I still have two BBCX wrapped and unopened boxes ready for the film shoot!

[Jason19th]

Wow just looked at eBay- had no idea how expensive of an item these sets are

[55koufax]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

There are 2 types of authentication. Their regular wrapper means the box is complete and all packs are factory sealed. The From A Sealed Case (FASC) means that they received the original intact case of cards and they guarantee they are exactly as you would have gotten from the company when they were released. Boxes that don’t have FASC have all sealed packs but they can come from different boxes. There’s no way to tell if all of the packs in a 1983 Topps box are original to that box. Hope that helps.

Yes, in the past 24 hours I have come to learn this.....that said, why doesn't Steve Hart disclose this (without expecting one to research it) on the label? Until yesterday, I had no idea he did TWO diff types of authentication, and I have bought and consigned stuff with him. He has even been to my house.

It would be easy to disclose and differentiate the two, and even put a disclaimer of sorts on the "non-guar" aspect of it.

The whole thing smells and the big picture is in this industry, virtually nobody can be trusted. Hard to believe there are scumbags who would cherry-pick cards, replace them sloppily, then somehow, at some point, somebody (REA?) would authenticate in a BBCX wrapper.

[55koufax]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

Wow just looked at eBay- had no idea how expensive of an item these sets are

I actually paid a premium for these 4 sets from REA, because they were BBCX wrapped and authenticated. They could have been had off eBay for much less - unwrapped.

In the latter half of 2020, the demand and prices have taken off, as many commons in PSA 10 going for $40+. Of course all the keys got a large uptick in $$$ during 2020. My dream of a 330 card complete set in PSA 10 is on the backburner...

[ocjack]

I was speaking with Reed at Dacardworld about selling some cases and boxes. I told him I had a 1991 Topps Archive that I bought in 1991 that was shrink-wrapped and a 1984 Donruss Wax that was also shrink-wrapped.

Reed told me that neither box (I knew the Donruss was after-market) was sold with original shrink-wrapping and he would have to break the wrap and then check each pack to determine if they were unopened.

I don't see how anyone could guarantee a box of individual cards from an unsealed box, unless they saw the box taken from a sealed case. But, that being the case, it should have had the "fasc" label.

Can't wait to hear the responses.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by 55koufax

Yes, in the past 24 hours I have come to learn this.....that said, why doesn't Steve Hart disclose this (without expecting one to research it) on the label? Until yesterday, I had no idea he did TWO diff types of authentication, and I have bought and consigned stuff with him. He has even been to my house.



It would be easy to disclose and differentiate the two, and even put a disclaimer of sorts on the "non-guar" aspect of it.



The whole thing smells and the big picture is in this industry, virtually nobody can be trusted. Hard to believe there are scumbags who would cherry-pick cards, replace them sloppily, then somehow, at some point, somebody (REA?) would authenticate in a BBCX wrapper.

I knew a dealer who would search 1987 Donruss for Greg Swindell rookies..so if it can be searched it likely was. Probably a cynical view but at today's prices I just don't have the confidence as a buyer.

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[55koufax]

Brian at REA got back to me last pm, with a full apology, and sent a call tag - 100% refunded - nothing in question. He did say they arrived BBCX wrapped from consignor.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

I knew a dealer who would search 1987 Donruss for Greg Swindell rookies..so if it can be searched it likely was. Probably a cynical view but at today's prices I just don't have the confidence as a buyer.

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I remember back in the mid to late 80's doing card shows in CT, you would have won the lottery if you could find a 1984 Topps Rack pack at a dealers table that still had a Don Mattingly rookie in it.

They were so easily searched and the collations cracked, unless you saw it come straight out of a sealed case, somebody likely had already snagged all the packs with Mattingly in it.

There was one particularly unethical dealer who had cases and cases of 1984 Topps wax and rack packs, but you could spend a week opening packs from him, and you'd never pull a Mattingly or Strawberry from one of his boxes.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I remember back in the mid to late 80's doing card shows in CT, you would have won the lottery if you could find a 1984 Topps Rack pack at a dealers table that still had a Don Mattingly rookie in it.

They were so easily searched and the collations cracked, unless you saw it come straight out of a sealed case, somebody likely had already snagged all the packs with Mattingly in it.

There was one particularly unethical dealer who had cases and cases of 1984 Topps wax and rack packs, but you could spend a week opening packs from him, and you'd never pull a Mattingly or Strawberry from one of his boxes.

Louie the crook. He was as bad with 85 topps if you remember

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by 55koufax

Brian at REA got back to me last pm, with a full apology, and sent a call tag - 100% refunded - nothing in question. He did say they arrived BBCX wrapped from consignor.

Edit: read your early posts wrong and incorrectly lambasted you. Sorry about that.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by 55koufax

Brian at REA got back to me last pm, with a full apology, and sent a call tag - 100% refunded - nothing in question. He did say they arrived BBCX wrapped from consignor.

That's good on them. More than likely the buyer thought it was legit, and BBCX definitely thought it was good.

[ALBB]

Oh yea, stuff from the early -mid 80s... I recall guys figuring out the sequence,
I remember in a card shop with guy saying..about 85 T...if you see Joe. xxx . in the pack..the next card is Eric Davis rookie...and it was

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Next time, do better research, IMO. You got much more than you should have expected. If you didn't realize a BBCE wrapped box could be a Frankenstein box of loose packs assembled, then you should learn more before purchasing and opening them.
REA did more than enough for you, and IMO, probably set a bad precedent. But hey, that's what whining on message boards gets you nowadays.

Except these were sets, not wax boxes.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Except these were sets, not wax boxes.

Ah, didn't see that. I am not sure how Steve certifies sets as unopened without them coming from a sealed case. Cards are rarely in order. My apologies to the OP.

[Directly]

Around a month or so ago a collector I have known for years called me wanting to sell his 3 or 4 boxes 89 score FB and 17 or so factory sets. He has owned the product since 1989. I thought his asking price was high, but after reading this discussion and again revisiting some recent sales, comparing last month prices, this product has really escalated in price ! (the factory sets I bought in 1989 were shrink wrapped ??)

[55koufax]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Ah, didn't see that. I am not sure how Steve certifies sets as unopened without them coming from a sealed case. Cards are rarely in order. My apologies to the OP.

Lots of misunderstanding here.....and I thought it was straightforward. Apparently Brian @ REA thought it open and shut too!

Even Steve Hart makes errors sometimes.

Always have to keep the guard up in this card collecting world.

[BRoberts]

I think you should consider yourself lucky this happened with REA. Not sure how many auction houses would have considered this as open and shut as you think it is.

[Johnny630]

Most already know this but if you don’t the big Lesson to Be Learned Here is that Brian From REA is, has, and will always do the right thing for the collector and Hobby.

[Bcwcardz]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I remember back in the mid to late 80's doing card shows in CT, you would have won the lottery if you could find a 1984 Topps Rack pack at a dealers table that still had a Don Mattingly rookie in it.

They were so easily searched and the collations cracked, unless you saw it come straight out of a sealed case, somebody likely had already snagged all the packs with Mattingly in it.

There was one particularly unethical dealer who had cases and cases of 1984 Topps wax and rack packs, but you could spend a week opening packs from him, and you'd never pull a Mattingly or Strawberry from one of his boxes.

I believe it because I bought some 84 racks in the late 90s. I bought 6. Guess what? 3 Mattinglys and 2 Straws. It wasn’t a coincidence, whoever sold those to the guy I got them from probably knew.


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[dani0100]

It seems that there are still some things that are misunderstood about BBCE. Here's what I know from my experience in collecting 80's unopened material:

1) For items like factory sets or vending boxes, BBCE will not wrap items unless they are FASC and come directly from a sealed outer case that BBCE examines, determines to be unopened, and then opens. It's not clear to me from the thread here whether the OP is saying he got a factory set that was wrapped but not marked FASC, but such a thing should not exist and I think BBCE would buy such a thing back.

2) In the case that a FASC wrapped box turns out to be bad, it is possible that BBCE mistakenly believed that a case it opened was sealed. Crazier things have happened, but I believe this is a fairly rare occurrence since most cases are pretty easy to tell if they've been opened, tampered with, and resealed. Again, I think if this happened and there were video evidence of it, BBCE would happily refund.

It doesn't seem like there are many unopened wax collectors in here since mostly that's a hobby that pertains to the late 70s and 80s, but I can tell you that among serious collectors of this stuff, Steve Hart and BBCE have a very sterling reputation, and for good reason. Steve is extremely responsive in communicating, always willing to go above and beyond, and generally does work that's about 100% more reliable than most "professional" authenticators in the hobby.

[Pack The Ripper]

Originally Posted by dani0100

It seems that there are still some things that are misunderstood about BBCE. Here's what I know from my experience in collecting 80's unopened material:

1) For items like factory sets or vending boxes, BBCE will not wrap items unless they are FASC and come directly from a sealed outer case that BBCE examines, determines to be unopened, and then opens. It's not clear to me from the thread here whether the OP is saying he got a factory set that was wrapped but not marked FASC, but such a thing should not exist and I think BBCE would buy such a thing back.

2) In the case that a FASC wrapped box turns out to be bad, it is possible that BBCE mistakenly believed that a case it opened was sealed. Crazier things have happened, but I believe this is a fairly rare occurrence since most cases are pretty easy to tell if they've been opened, tampered with, and resealed. Again, I think if this happened and there were video evidence of it, BBCE would happily refund.

It doesn't seem like there are many unopened wax collectors in here since mostly that's a hobby that pertains to the late 70s and 80s, but I can tell you that among serious collectors of this stuff, Steve Hart and BBCE have a very sterling reputation, and for good reason. Steve is extremely responsive in communicating, always willing to go above and beyond, and generally does work that's about 100% more reliable than most "professional" authenticators in the hobby.

Hey fellow unopened wax collector! That makes two of us.

Seriously though, I've been collecting unopened wax for a long time and BBCE wrap is a must for anything of real value. Sports and non-sports alike, I won't touch anything over 100 bucks without authentication. Almost all of my collection is BBCE wrapped.

[Johnny630]

Me too ! All factory sealed from a case wrapped 6 Box 1985 Topps Rack
FASC BBCE

[dragonwagon9080]

I do not like how BBCE handles Tiffany sets. They will shrink wrap the plain outer box, instead of the Tiffany box. Now I can’t see all the color and beauty of the set box design or the individual set # on the bottom. All I see is a plain boring cardboard box. I get it if they did this for the 1989 set bc it is already shrink wrapped, but the rest...


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[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Pack The Ripper

Hey fellow unopened wax collector! That makes two of us.

Seriously though, I've been collecting unopened wax for a long time and BBCE wrap is a must for anything of real value. Sports and non-sports alike, I won't touch anything over 100 bucks without authentication. Almost all of my collection is BBCE wrapped.

And this thread proves that just about anything could be inside those boxes.

[Pack The Ripper]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

And this thread proves that just about anything could be inside those boxes.

You're right. It's a dangerous hobby and no niche is 100% safe. Whether it's a $10 box of 87 Topps or a $1,000,000 PSA8 Wagner, there are douches around every corner ready to screw us over. We all do our best due diligence and go from there.

On a more positive note, I've ripped a lot of BBCE wax and they've always been what they were supposed to be. I've heard that Steve Hart's reputation is beyond repute, so I put my trust and money in his hands. So far, so good.

[swarmee]

https://www.pokebeach.com/2021/12/lo...oogle_vignette

BBCE / Steve Hart being accused of making a bad decision to certify a case of Pokemon cards that recently was bought for $3.5 million. Could be a base case with a counterfeit label or it could be a complete counterfeit. Or there's still a slight chance it's real. Will be interesting to follow.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.pokebeach.com/2021/12/lo...oogle_vignette

BBCE / Steve Hart being accused of making a bad decision to certify a case of Pokemon cards that recently was bought for $3.5 million. Could be a base case with a counterfeit label or it could be a complete counterfeit. Or there's still a slight chance it's real. Will be interesting to follow.

Wow that sucks for everyone. I have not been a fan of BBCE since we had the guy on here brag and show proof how easy it was to get fake packs authenticated by them. Anyone know if that guy is still selling his fake star packs?

[parkplace33]

This post is 100 percent the reason I don’t collect unopened boxes or packs.

[Directly]

Heard someone trying to sell quantities of counterfeit 1989 UD Ken Griffey Jr RC. Even low enough to pull Authentic Griffey RC from factory sets and seeded the bogus reprints then resealing the sets! I haven't personally seen the reprints so cant say if they had the authentic Hologram sticker on the reverse--check out , you may need to turn on the sound https://twitter.com/cfree3344/status...561851393?s=10

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Directly

Heard someone trying to sell quantities of counterfeit 1989 UD Ken Griffey Jr RC. Even low enough to pull Authentic Griffey RC from factory sets and seeded the bogus reprints then resealing the sets! I haven't personally seen the reprints so cant say if they had the authentic Hologram sticker on the reverse--check out , you may need to turn on the sound https://twitter.com/cfree3344/status...561851393?s=10

That link took me to a blaster box break of 2020 football bought by StockX. You should probably put it in the thread devoted to them. I posted in this one because the story is about BBCE.

[Directly]

Originally Posted by swarmee

That link took me to a blaster box break of 2020 football bought by StockX. You should probably put it in the thread devoted to them. I posted in this one because the story is about BBCE.

I think its very relevant-

[cardsfan73]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.pokebeach.com/2021/12/lo...oogle_vignette

BBCE / Steve Hart being accused of making a bad decision to certify a case of Pokemon cards that recently was bought for $3.5 million. Could be a base case with a counterfeit label or it could be a complete counterfeit. Or there's still a slight chance it's real. Will be interesting to follow.

Yeah, this story doesn't end well for Jake Paul.. other than a lot of publicity. He ended up spending $3.5 million on Gi Joe cards!

https://youtu.be/i8lmQ5Ls6bw

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by cardsfan73

Yeah, this story doesn't end well for Jake Paul.. other than a lot of publicity. He ended up spending $3.5 million on Gi Joe cards!

https://youtu.be/i8lmQ5Ls6bw

I'm not sure who to feel sorry for in this.....if anyone at all.

[swarmee]

Logan Paul, but it looks like he's already been refunded by the previous seller, who is trying to get paid back from the flippers who got it from Canada and had Steve authenticate it.

[cardsfan73]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Logan Paul, but it looks like he's already been refunded by the previous seller, who is trying to get paid back from the flippers who got it from Canada and had Steve authenticate it.

My bad! I always get those two mixed up.

I am almost wonder if this was all some kind of publicity stunt.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by cardsfan73

My bad! I always get those two mixed up.

I am almost wonder if this was all some kind of publicity stunt.

I was thinking that but there is no way BBCE would want to put something out there like that - basically ruin their creditability.

[bobbyw8469]

Insane.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I was thinking that but there is no way BBCE would want to put something out there like that - basically ruin their creditability.

Exactly what I was thinking. This brings everything they have certified into question.

[x2drich2000]

This still leaves me with the same thoughts about BBCE as I have with PSA or SGC. These are the best authenticators trusted in the hobby, would you rather buy something they looked at, even if they are wrong once in awhile, or buy something completely blind without any other opinions?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

This still leaves me with the same thoughts about BBCE as I have with PSA or SGC. These are the best authenticators trusted in the hobby, would you rather buy something they looked at, even if they are wrong once in awhile, or buy something completely blind without any other opinions?

I think, knowing not much about it admittedly, Steve just made a mistake going outside his comfort zone. I don't think it really calls the rest of his work into question.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think, knowing not much about it admittedly, Steve just made a mistake going outside his comfort zone. I don't think it really calls the rest of his work into question.

What about the products that were within his comfort zone? Like '79 Topps wax trays? All the cello packs with stars on top that he authenticated?

As I mentioned in the other thread, BBCE is no stranger to scandals. The problem is, people just don't like to talk about it because, if he lost credibility, then the value of their "investments" would plummet.

Edited to add: I truly believe that anyone who has the desire to learn can go read Mark Murphy's book and study things like corner folds, roller marks (the lines the rollers leave in the wax as the pack is sealed), etc., and have just as much knowledge as Steve.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

What about the products that were within his comfort zone? Like '79 Topps wax trays? All the cello packs with stars on top that he authenticated?

As I mentioned in the other thread, BBCE is no stranger to scandals. The problem is, people just don't like to talk about it because, if he lost credibility, then the value of their "investments" would plummet.

Edited to add: I truly believe that anyone who has the desire to learn can go read Mark Murphy's book and study things like corner folds, roller marks (the lines the rollers leave in the wax as the pack is sealed), etc., and have just as much knowledge as Steve.

If the standard is perfection, very few experts in any field are going to live up to it, IMO.