T206 Wagner proof strip now in Philly...

[barrysloate]

It's possible Wagner wanted to see what the cards looked like before he made a decision.

[FUBAR]

So Ted, Can we expect you to be the buyer this summer??

I would expect this to be valued more then the individual card for 2 reasons, the first being, this is the only known example of the strip versus 60 regular Wagner cards, and two- the provenance, knowing that the Wagner estate was the owner.

A grading company would be silly not to want to slab this... what company wouldn't want their name on the most limited, unique and possible best find in the past 30 years?

then again, what do i know?

[onlychild]

Regarding the provenance:

Is this just an oral provenance or is it in writing somewhere by the estate? In the collecting world, provenace is only as good as the paper it's written on.

Can/Has anyone ever traced it back to its origins?...or was it just placed in an auction description? Would be interesting to know.

I think a piece so historically significant would need a rock solid backing.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

It's possible Wagner wanted to see what the cards looked like before he made a decision.

That implies that the look of the cards had something to do with Wagner's decision. I have a hard time believing he'd care.

[canjond]

Ted - you and I know each other fairly well and I certainly defer to you on many T206 subjects (in fact, probably most). However, I'm curious as to how you might be able to offer an alternative explanation for the overlapping and double-stike proof marks?

Even if you could imagine all 5 cards being precisely cut so that they could be pasted on a strip together in such a way that all proof marks line up (I'm sure that would be an extremely difficult process itself), it still doesn't explain the "double-struck" proof mark.

[jeffshep]

I was siding with the full printed strip theory, but after staring at it for a bit a few things still have me questioning the possibility of this. First, I would assume the red "B" missing on Bowerman's jersey would also mean Kling and Brown would be lacking their red background color, but clearly it's present. One possibility is that team names were reserved for a separate printing plate, to make necessary changes if a player was traded etc. ATC may have had a multi-year release in mind upon T206's inception.

Second, I've had some truly wretched T206 beaters in my day, but something just looks off in some of those creases - almost as if there is some sort of material composite going on. Look at the upper right corner of Brown - it appears as if a portion of the "top layer" is folded over, touching the edge of Wagner's border.

Third - the toning of the white borders. I've witnessed the discoloring various glues can cause on paper, especially over time - these borders just lack the brilliance most T206's possess. Obviously without card in hand, or a decent hi-res scan, it's difficult to tell. I'm also curious as to what the lightened areas under the proof marks are? To me the borders should be that color, and the rest has been toned down due to the introduction of some sort of adhesive to the reverse. It's possible these "proofs" were printed on thin paper stock, not the usual thicker stock which I believe had some sort of clay coating on the front - hence the lack of brilliance or "pop" in color on the cards.

Just some observations. Regardless, it's an amazing piece - I remember being in awe as a 12yr old when I first saw a pic of it...

[/QUOTE]

[carrigansghost]

Unless you have seen this strip, I don't see how you can comment as to it's authenticity. Conjecture as to it's origins are most welcome. Again I have seen this and am very comfortable with saying that it was printed as some sort of sample and not a conjured piece by some card doctor.

Not an expert, just my observations.

Rawn

[barrysloate]

How is that the Brown, Wagner, Young, and Kling have multiple heavy creases, but the Bowerman is nearly crease free?

[jeffshep]

For the record I definitely think it's vintage, not some contemporary card doctor frankenstein - just not sure it was printed as one sheet or pieced together. It would be very east to tell in person.

[jeffshep]

That Wagner crease to me looks like several instances of folding and opening - maybe the story about finding it in Wag's pocket in the attic is legit?

[teetwoohsix]

I have never seen this in person myself, but all of the board members who have seen it in person have pretty much the same opinion on it--that it appears to be one solid strip, and not some type of paste job.

Clayton

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Tex

That implies that the look of the cards had something to do with Wagner's decision. I have a hard time believing he'd care.

I'm not sure about how much control the players had or cared to have back then. I do know that Wagner had enough clout to get the card pulled for whatever reason you care to go with- didn't get paid, didn't get paid enough, didn't want kids to have to buy tobacco, didn't like the picture. Whatever reason it did get pulled.

Today you'd find it hard to believe the players would care what their card looks like, but they do. Some very much so, and every player signs off on every one of their cards, either personally, or by proxy (Mlbpa, agent etc.)
That's a big part of what the companies have to go through as part of the proofing process.

steve B

Who once spent an entire Saturday looking for 50 perfect college faculty guides out of a print run of 5000. Each faculty member got a guide, and they couldn't have any chance of a tiny print defect on any of the pictures.

[tedzan]

I'm not sure I understand your "overlaping" comment ?

The cross-hair proof marks are very precise ID's for aligning the 6-color registration process in the printing of these cards.
Therefore, when these cards are placed adjacent to each other, I fully expect these marks to be in perfect alignment from
card to card.

Everyone has to realize that this is a pre-production piece. These are not completed cards, but thin-film like FRONTS that
I claim were affixed on a horizontal strip. Again, I repeat, the inconsistency of the colors of these 5 cards with respect to
each other is a total PRINTING IMPOSSIBILITY. I dare anyone to show me an UNCUT sheet, or strip with "crazy" colors as
these; and, lines between the cards ? ? ? ?


Regarding your last statement......."Even if you could imagine all 5 cards being precisely cut so that they could be pasted
on a strip together in such a way that all proof marks line up (I'm sure that would be an extremely difficult process itself)"

Jon....we are talking about the foremost Lithographic Co. in America back then. These printers were world class craftsmen.
This "junk" that we are mulling over here is incidental compared to the large pieces of complex artwork that they produced
on a daily basis during that era.


TED Z

[canjond]

Ted - the "overlapping" proof marks I'm talking about appear on the strip and are easier to see in person than on the small scan. In short, the proof marks between two of the cards have a double set of proof marks - in other words, one set was printed, and then another set was printed almost on top of the previous set, but just slightly askew so there is the smallest of gaps between them. In order for the "pasted" theory to hold water in my opinion, the strip would have had to be pasted together, then run through the printing process again after being pasted together, and the result would have been the slightly overlapping proof mark. I just can't see another way for the overlapping printers proof marks to appear on the strip if the strip was, indeed, pasted together.

[tedzan]

I'm sorry, but I don't see what you are alluding to, on the scan shown here.

But, more significantly, don't the following abnormalities trouble you........ ?

(1).....In the 6-color process used by American Litho. to print these cards, RED is the very last color to
be applied....yet Brown and Kling are Red; however, Bowerman is missing the Red "B" on his uniform.

(2).....CYoung's uniform color is missing, yet the other 4 cards have their normal uniform colors.

And Jon, please tell me when (if ever) you have seen any white-bordered card with VERTICAL LINES
printed on them ?

Regards,

TED Z

[jeffshep]

Good point on the printed vertical lines Ted - it is odd. There does seem to be some very minor chipping or flaking along the vertical border between Bowerman and Young, revealing a lighter paper stock underneath. This doesn't appear to have been caused by creasing, as seen on the vertical line between Young and Kling. One could assume this is caused by two images glued next to each other and experiencing similar wear over 100 years.

[Matt]

Have at it:

http://www.huntauctions.com/live/ima...=242&lot_qual=

[wayne1]

Ted Z and others, I can shed a little light on this proof strip. Back in 1978 Bill Zimpleman, Mike Wheat, Ken Blazek, and myself, Wayne Varner were on a buying trip in the Pittsburgh area and we purchased this strip from a gentleman who had purchased Wagner's house. We bought a number of items he found in the house. I cannot remember all the details, but after we purchased the strip, we had a drawing, and I won the strip. I sold it in 1980 to Barry Helper, who to my knowledge owned the strip until he passed away. I can tell you from holding the strip many times, it is not cards pasted together. Could that have been done at the factory and then potographed to send to Wagner, possibly, but not likely. However it was done, it was definately done at the factory, and has the proof lines like all the proof cards I have ever seen. I have seen the strip on several occasions since Barry passed away and it is in the same orginial condition as when I owned it from 1978 until 1980. There is no question it is orginial and unaltered no matter what anyone says. Hope this helps a little.

Wayne Varner
SHOEBOX CARDS

[jcmtiger]

This strip has been around for quite awhile. Not sure about how many auctions, but sold a few times also. I think it is one strip, not put together. Myself It would be hard to believe Wagner had anything to do with this strip. Carried in his back pocket, I don't believe that. I just think it is a proof example of what was going to be produced later. I think Wayne would be the expert on the strip since he owned it at one time. There are quite a few newcomers that have not seen the strip and are speculating about it. That's alright but it is not new business.

joe

[barrysloate]

Barry Halper sold the strip in 1999 through Sotheby's, which was of course many years before his death. Now that it is slabbed, it will be interesting to see how much of premium it will sell for over previous sales.

[FrankWakefield]

Hello Wayne, and thanks for posting.

Is that strip on paper, card stock, what? Same thickness as a T206, thinner, thicker??

Frank W

[wayne1]

Frank, as I recall, and that was 30 years ago since I actually held it in my hands, it was regular card stock. It definately was not thin paper.

[judsonhamlin]

Originally Posted by wayne1

Frank, as I recall, and that was 30 years ago since I actually held it in my hands, it was regular card stock. It definately was not thin paper.

good thing - then we'd call it a Coupon

[Leon]

Thanks Wayne, for chiming in. It wasn't that bad to post on a message board, was it? I can't wait to see you and Bill again at the National. Ya'll are some of my favorite guys to just sit and chat with. If I am lucky I will catch ya'll eating breakfast again and pull up a chair. Welcome to the board (I know you have read it but joining in is more fun). Say hi to Bill for me.....best regards

btw, GREAT info on the Wags strip too!!!

[wayne1]

Thanks Leon, just thought I could add some facts since I owned it for 2 years and others are just seeing it from their computer. It is real and it is a neat piece. I was happy to sell it to Barry, as it meant more to him at the time than it did to me, but I wished I had kept it now.

[Jewish-collector]

Wayne,

Welcome to the Net54 forum. See you in Baltimore.

[KNH]

Is this the same strip that Al Rosen used to have? I remember seeing something like this at I believe a Fort Washington show back in the 80's. I think he was asking 2M for it.

[Jay Wolt]

Kary, yes its the same strip.
Was advertised in SCD in several issues as well w/ the hefty price tag

[Jewish-collector]

This is one of those items that every auction house will end up featuring at one time or another. Mastro sold it in 2002. Hunt in 2010. Who's going to be next ? REA ? Heritage ? Memory Lane ? Maybe this topic is a a good poll ?

[matty39]

I haven't read through the entire thread so I don't know if this has already been posted, but the strip card is in the current Hunt catalog, lot 242. It is slabbed by SGC as authentic.

[benjulmag]

Inasmuch as the strip already is graded authentic and has pretty crummy eye appeal, I wonder if this is not one of those instances where restoration could materially increase its value. It's not like it will prevent it from getting a number grade. But it could, by taking advantage of the strong colors the strip has, create something that would be attractive to look at. We have seen with posters that such restoration, even of the major kind, can significantly increase market value. Maybe it could with this too.

[Matt]

Corey - you sound like the item description.

[brass_rat]

I called Hunt Auctions to check in on how long the strip would be on display...much to my dismay, it's no longer at the stadium...I didn't have a chance to make it down from NYC...

[botn]

I was hoping by now to hear Ted Z's opinion on the strip as he said he would be traveling to the ballpark while it was on display.

[19cbb]

Not sure if this video has been posted already, but here's David Hunt showing the slabbed Wagner strip on MSNBC.

Breaking sports news video. MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL highlights and more.

[jmk59]

I hadn't seen it, so thanks so much for posting it. Hunt did a great job in the interview, didn't he? Relaxed and affable, with natural enthusiasm. Great for him to have landed the All-Star deal with MLB and now turning it into an "event" auction.

I wondered for a minute if any individual consignment agreement includes that the item will be part of any media coverage such as this clip. This auction might be expected to get more media coverage than most, and it seemed like having a "first in line for MSNBC piece" might be a good sales pitch. But probably not. Anyone interested in and able to afford the Wagner strip didn't need to see it on MSNBC to know it's in the auction. More likely the publicity helps the auction overall and many some of the non-major pieces, but the premium items would be well known beforehand.

Thanks again for posting the clip.

J

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by jmk59

I hadn't seen it, so thanks so much for posting it. Hunt did a great job in the interview, didn't he? Relaxed and affable, with natural enthusiasm. Great for him to have landed the All-Star deal with MLB and now turning it into an "event" auction.

I wondered for a minute if any individual consignment agreement includes that the item will be part of any media coverage such as this clip. This auction might be expected to get more media coverage than most, and it seemed like having a "first in line for MSNBC piece" might be a good sales pitch. But probably not. Anyone interested in and able to afford the Wagner strip didn't need to see it on MSNBC to know it's in the auction. More likely the publicity helps the auction overall and many some of the non-major pieces, but the premium items would be well known beforehand.

Thanks again for posting the clip.

J

I agree that it's a great catch for Hunt Auctions to hook up with MLB for an annual All-Star Game auction. Maybe they could celebrate by updating their Web site to 2010. Heck, even 2002.

[jmk59]

I was thinking the same thing Rob, that maybe this is what can put them in the mix with the big guys. I have always kept an eye on Hunt auctions, but the horrible software has always left me thinking that they are sort of like the garage sale of auction houses. Lots of stuff, mostly small or niche, some bigger/better items, but you have to dig around for things buried in the loosely collated piles on tables.

J

[brass_rat]

$275,000.

There were some other interesting prices in this auction...and some pieces that failed to sell...

http://huntauctions.com/Live/view_fe...items_list.cfm

[steve B]

I'm missing something there. It shows high bid as 121,000 but sold for 275,000 was 275,000 the reserve and it didn't actually sell?

Steve B

[brass_rat]

I believe the first column represents the initial online bidding that ended on Sunday. Live bidding concluded the auction today. It appears that if something didn't meet the reserve, the "sold for" price is listed as $0.00.

[Jim VB]

To me, the most amazing part of that page is realizing that Chili Davis had 3 World Series Trophies.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

I believe the first column represents the initial online bidding that ended on Sunday. Live bidding concluded the auction today. It appears that if something didn't meet the reserve, the "sold for" price is listed as $0.00.

Ah, now it makes sense. Thanks.

Steve B

[White Borders]

Just received this email from everybody's favorite auction house.

EXCEPTIONALLY RARE T-206 HONUS WAGNER TOBACCO PROOF STRIP c. 1909-11 PURCHASED FOR $316,250 BY SCP AUCTIONS AT MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL ALL-STAR AUCTION


The unique surviving T-206 Honus Wagner tobacco proof strip was purchased Tuesday at the Major League Baseball All-Star Auction for $316,250 by SCP Auctions of Laguna Niguel, CA for an anonymous client.

The T-206 piece includes four other players: Mordecai Brown (HOF), Frank Bowerman, Cy Young (HOF), and Johnny Kling, along with Wagner.

Commenting on the acquisition, David Kohler, president and CEO of SCP Auctions, said: “We are thrilled that we have been able to help our client obtain this iconic object in the field of baseball card collecting. The interest in T-206 Wagner legacy continues to transcend popular culture.”

The legacy of the T-206 Honus Wagner Card dates to its creation and initial release by the American Tobacco Company in 1909 as part of a series that included more than 500 different cards. T-206 tobacco cards are among the most widely collected, popular and sought after cards among current collectors.

It is estimated that only 50-60 examples of the T-206 Wagner have surfaced. Numerous myths have been perpetuated and debated during the course of the last century as to the reason for its scarcity. One of the prevailing theories is that Wagner, one of the premier players in the history of baseball, insisted that he be paid by the tobacco company for the use of his image, causing the production of his card to be halted. A more common and well-documented theory is that Wagner simply did not want children to be influenced into buying tobacco products just to get a “picture” of him, and thus forced the early withdrawal of his image on this principle. The volumes that have been written and countless tales that have been spun make the T206 Wagner card a part of classic American Folklore.

T-206 Honus Wagner Tobacco Proof Strip Sells for $316,250
The proof had recently been graded by the professional grading service SGC and certified with an "Authentic" designation. This is the first time that this iconic strip has been professionally graded. For more information, please visit www.scpauctions.com.

[botn]

Hope they did not try to pay for it with numerous money orders under $5,000 each.

[Jim VB]

Want to bet that their "client" is the same one that owns the PSA 8 Wagner?

[Jewish-collector]

I guess SCP deserves this:

[Leon]

Originally Posted by botn

Hope they did not try to pay for it with numerous money orders under $5,000 each.

63 x

[crazysc]

My little part of the strip's history.

I know Steve Verkman bought it from the Halper/Sotheby's auction ten or so years ago. I think he paid about $85K for it. In one of his later auctions, I purchased it from him for $91K. I used it in a Shop At Home promotion as a grand prize in a drawing - I believe a lady from the south won it, and later that year consigned it to a Mastro auction. I believe it sold in the Mastro auction for somewhere in the high $70s or low $80s - I do remember Steve making the comment that it brought the most money in his auction out of the three.

I never removed it from the glass holder/case that it was in from the Sotheby's sale, but there is no doubt in my mind that it was one sold strip/piece. The back was blank. It had the genuine feel and look of T206s from that era. I don't remember if it had a factory "cut" or a hand cut - didn't really seem relevant.

Having held it for maybe six months...it's a unique piece, but it is aesthetically as ugly as a hundred grand piece can be. Considering what Poor/Fair Wagners are going for, you'd think this item would be worth more, but the appeal just isn't there.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by crazysc

My little part of the strip's history.

I know Steve Verkman bought it from the Halper/Sotheby's auction ten or so years ago. I think he paid about $85K for it. In one of his later auctions, I purchased it from him for $91K. I used it in a Shop At Home promotion as a grand prize in a drawing - I believe a lady from the south won it, and later that year consigned it to a Mastro auction. I believe it sold in the Mastro auction for somewhere in the high $70s or low $80s - I do remember Steve making the comment that it brought the most money in his auction out of the three.

I never removed it from the glass holder/case that it was in from the Sotheby's sale, but there is no doubt in my mind that it was one sold strip/piece. The back was blank. It had the genuine feel and look of T206s from that era. I don't remember if it had a factory "cut" or a hand cut - didn't really seem relevant.

Having held it for maybe six months...it's a unique piece, but it is aesthetically as ugly as a hundred grand piece can be. Considering what Poor/Fair Wagners are going for, you'd think this item would be worth more, but the appeal just isn't there.

Solomon- thanks for giving more information on the strip and thanks for registering for our forum. Glad to have you aboard!!