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  #1  
Old 06-25-2007, 06:44 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Link to NY Daily News article which contains a picture of the Wagner BEFORE being encapsulated by PSA. Unfortunately, the online article only has a picture of the book the author is peddling. Looking at the picture in the paper, it is obviously difficult to discern whether or not the card has been trimmed as reported.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2007/06/24/2007-06-24_just_cant_cut_it.html

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  #2  
Old 06-25-2007, 06:55 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Can you provide a scan of this photo depicted in this NY newspaper ?

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  #3  
Old 06-25-2007, 08:18 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ted, no, it's just in the print edition and as a newspaper 'picture' is kind of blurry.

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  #4  
Old 06-25-2007, 08:50 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Jim Dale

Man it sure puts some information (background) out there on the card...cool

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  #5  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:01 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Zinn

Thanks Jeff for the post. Intriging.

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  #6  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:03 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Dave Hornish

I just read the Daily News article and the photo they show is useless. The original photo and copies derived therefrom were likely of poor resolution and further reproduction on newsprint makes it impossible to tell anything. A hi res scan of the first generation photo would be helpful but I doubt it will ever surface in that form. And how do you know you are looking at THE CARD anyway in the photo? There's some kind of line going down the right side border that could be an artifact from reproduction but if on the card itself looks to make it tough to display without it being apparent to the naked eye. It's shown in a Lucite holder and they don't show the back of the card so frankly it could be a reprint.

What's interesting is the book is getting press in the local NY papers (expected in the Daily News due to the author) but Newsday had the book review already and I think there was mention in their sports section as well a couple of weeks ago. I have to check the Times today but haven't seen anything there so far. I refuse to read the Post so that's an unknown. I presume some other papers have published reviews across the country.

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  #7  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:06 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Jay

Jeff--Is it the Sunday News, and, if so, what section?

Thanks---Jay

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  #8  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:15 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: barrysloate

I just picked up my copy and it is on page 60 of the main section.

While the card pictured is clearly poorly cut and looks particularly misshapen in some areas, the picture is blurry and the three enlargements aren't showing me much. Assuming all these photos are real and not photoshopped, you can clearly see that the Wagner was cut poorly from the sheet and looks different today. Again, that's assuming everything in the article is true.

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  #9  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:18 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Donald Miller

Hello,
It seems as if the conversation is always about this card when others are known to exist. Maybe this particular card has been doctored in some way or another.(trimmed from a sheet) If I had the money to buy the T206 Wagner I would not take a chance on this particular card. I would instead try to acquire the second best example. Does anyone know what that example would grade or what is the second best card graded and does anyone know who owns that card?

Don(curious) in Dakota

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  #10  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:24 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: barrysloate

One of our board members owns what would quite likely be the next best Wagner. Interestingly, it has never been graded. It would, however, likely grade a 5. He has chosen not to holder it, and I doubt he will step forward and identify himself.

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  #11  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:29 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Aaron


PSA Population Report:

1911 T206
NAME COMPANY VARIETY 1-2 3-4 5 6 7 7Q 8 8Q 9 9Q 10 TOTAL



HONUS WAGNER 22 4 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 27

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  #12  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:32 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: barrysloate

That population report makes it look like there is one 6 and no 8's, but I believe there is one 5 and one 8. The graded 5 is close to the raw one, but not quite as sharp (so I've been told).

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  #13  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:35 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Aaron

Yes, that is correct one 5 and one 8. Not sure what happened to the spacing when I posted previously.

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  #14  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:38 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Eric Brehm

The PSA 5 T206 Wagner is listed on the PSA set registry in the Scott D Ireland collection. He's got a PSA 7 Plank too.

The current SGC population report shows 2 examples graded at SGC 40 (equivalent to PSA 3 VG), with none higher.

I don't know what the highest graded examples by GAI or any other service are.

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  #15  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:39 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: barrysloate

Can I also assume there were 22 graded PSA 1 and 4 graded PSA 2? Are there any 3's or 4's?

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  #16  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:41 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Donald Miller

My point has always been that rather than going after a card with a lot of question marks,I would much rather get the #2 card available at the bargain????price of say 1 million than buy the questionable card. If the truth be known, the#2 card might actually be the #1 card!!!!

Don

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  #17  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:42 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Aaron

Population report shows as 1-2 as 22. 3-4 as 4. It doesn't seperate them for some reason.

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  #18  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:44 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Donald Miller

Barry,
I think the report means there are 22 graded either a 1 or 2 and 4 graded a 3 or 4 and 1 graded a 5.

Don

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  #19  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:45 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: barrysloate

Donald- I can assure you that the owner of the so-called #2 has long contended that. Of course he is a little biased, too, but that is natural.

Edited to add why do they combine two grades in the population report?

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  #20  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:59 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Richard L.

I always wondered the same thing about combined grades? They also have "the monster" in alphabetical order by first names? Imagine if phone books were published that way.

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  #21  
Old 06-25-2007, 10:23 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: aaron seefeldt

Barry and all,
About 6 or 7 years ago I was invited to a prominent collector's house to view his goodies.

While we were talking he put a card in my hands and when I looked at it, I was absolutely blown away. It was a t206 Wagner PSA 6. Full borders, no evidence of trimming, etc.

I've seen the PSA 8 Wagner several times and in my opinion (note: opinion), the PSA 6 Wagner is the most valuable card in the hobby.

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  #22  
Old 06-25-2007, 10:39 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Frank Evanov

Here's the picture as best as I could do:



Frank

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  #23  
Old 06-25-2007, 10:40 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: MVSNYC

i have the copeland collection sotheby's catalog at home, from the 1991 gretzky sale...i will check the scan in the catalog, to see if there is any info for the discussion...

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  #24  
Old 06-25-2007, 10:44 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: barrysloate

Aaron- if you saw a PSA 6 Wagner, and I'm sure you did, why doesn't it show up in the pop report?

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  #25  
Old 06-25-2007, 10:46 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Joann

Anyone have a scan of the current version to post for before and after? Because if that slant cut on the bottom border is no longer in the PSA 8 version, and it is the same card, my mind will probably be made up.

J

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  #26  
Old 06-25-2007, 10:49 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: aaron seefeldt

Barry,
If I told you who owned it, you would understand.

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  #27  
Old 06-25-2007, 10:50 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: barrysloate

Joann- I can say with certainty that the card pictured in the Daily News is cut differently from the one in the PSA 8 holder.

What I can't say with certainty is that they are both the same card. But my hunch is they are.

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  #28  
Old 06-25-2007, 10:52 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: barrysloate

Aaron- it would make no difference to me who owned it; what it proves is that the pop report can and will leave out pertinent information.

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  #29  
Old 06-25-2007, 11:18 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Jay

I got a copy of the News. Interesting, if you measure the ratio of the size of the right side border to the bottom border in the newspaper photo and compare that with the same ratio in the book cover "after" photo it certainly appears to me that the card has become thinner.

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  #30  
Old 06-25-2007, 11:19 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: aaron seefeldt

Pop reports are meaningless to begin with. I know several people who submit the same card numerous times until the highest possible grade is achieved.

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  #31  
Old 06-25-2007, 11:26 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: JimB

Two points:

1) The card in that newspaper photo could not both need trimming and be the McNall/Gretzky Wagner in my opinion. Though it is near impossible to tell if there is wavyness from the photo, one can get a general sense of the size of the boarders. That card is not oversized and if it were trimmed further, I think it would be undersized. The holdered PSA 8 is not undersized.

2) Alan Ray seems to resent that Bill Mastro has made a lot of money off the card and bargained hard to get it from Ray at the best price/deal possible. Yet he simultaneously claims that Mastro must have trimmed the card to sell it as "mint" while Ray himself sent out the word to a nearby show that he had a "mint" Wagner to sell. It was upon hearing this that Bill Mastro responding and went to go buy the card. Something is not adding up.

JimB

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  #32  
Old 06-25-2007, 11:32 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Jay

Jim--I think you are wrong. When I measure the PSA8 card has thinner side borders.

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  #33  
Old 06-25-2007, 11:32 AM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: barrysloate

Alan Ray is really upset with himself for being bullied into making a bad deal. He claimed he needed money, and in that situation people often make poor decisions. But at the time, 25K was still an awful lot of money for a baseball card.

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  #34  
Old 06-25-2007, 01:10 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Jay,

You were in the grading room and measured the Wagner?

Greg

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  #35  
Old 06-25-2007, 04:04 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Jay

Greg--I assume that you can read, so read what I wrote. Compare the measurements in the newspaper picture to those of the card pictured on the cover of the book.

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  #36  
Old 06-25-2007, 04:21 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: JimB

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  #37  
Old 06-25-2007, 04:27 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Zinn

If the above are in fact "before and after" pics there should be no doubt in anyones mind that the card has been trimmed. Case closed.

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  #38  
Old 06-25-2007, 04:39 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Assuming those pics are the same card, no doubt the card was cut down - just look at the left and right borders. Ok, the card is now worth 235K instead of 2.35 mil. Can I buy it please?

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  #39  
Old 06-25-2007, 04:57 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Dan Kravitz

I predict the card will not sell for $2 million or more again. Anyone else?

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  #40  
Old 06-25-2007, 05:01 PM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I tend to agree. Starting to remind me of McGwire's 3 mil record-breaking HR ball...

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  #41  
Old 06-25-2007, 05:03 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Dan Kravitz

I was thinking the same thing. That ball is worth maybe $100K today.

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  #42  
Old 06-25-2007, 05:10 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Scot Reader

Assuming that both pics show "The Card", the bottom and/or the right edges of the encapsulated version look to have been trimmed. Can one of you computer-savvy guys enlarge the encapsulated Wagner and superimpose it onto the newspaper pic? (Where is Wonka when you need him?) If this could be done, I bet you would see a lot of white showing near the bottom right border.

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  #43  
Old 06-25-2007, 05:16 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: barrysloate

You can see the bottom right corner is bowed without even superimposing it...plus you would have white on white so it would be hard to tell.

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  #44  
Old 06-25-2007, 05:17 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I agree with Barry: no need to superimpose. The naked eye can see this one pretty easily. But how do we know each picture is of the same card? Because the Daily News says so?

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  #45  
Old 06-25-2007, 05:23 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: barrysloate

That was my earlier point. But what else can it be- someone else's NR MT Wagner?

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  #46  
Old 06-25-2007, 05:30 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: James Feagin

The middle left border of the newspaper Wagner appears to have a print blemish which is absent on the graded copy?

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  #47  
Old 06-25-2007, 05:32 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Scot Reader


I would still like to see a superimposition to know WHERE it was trimmed (if in fact both pics are "The Card").

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  #48  
Old 06-25-2007, 05:36 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: barrysloate

I feel confident they are both the same card. Maybe Wonka can do it as he seems to be our most gifted photoshop guy.

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  #49  
Old 06-25-2007, 06:18 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: Steve f

Hardly a scientific or conclusive mirror image I know. Though he does look a tad askew.

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  #50  
Old 06-25-2007, 06:48 PM
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Default Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

Posted By: E, Daniel

appear ALOT closer to the bottom of the image border than the suposed pre-graded shot? I don't think that trimming the bottom of the white border could exactly move the image itself down....?


Daniel



Edited to flip flop two words.

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