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  #1  
Old 12-13-2004, 02:00 PM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: Andy Baran

I have seen my Just So Burkett mentioned in a few posts, so I just wanted to clear the air about why and how I am having the card restored.

First, let me state that in most cases, I would never consider restoration for a baseball card. I would never restore a card to try to fool anyone (I have been very open about this), nor would I do so to take a perfectly good card and improve it's condition. This situation is unique however. The Just So Tobacco card that I own is the only known Just So Burkett card in existance. It is also horribly trimmed (already altered from it's original state). I have a scan of the card as it exists today below. I have been able to locate a period Just So Tobacco Actress card, from the exact same series. The restoration process will use the Just So Actress card (all period materials), to combine with Just So Burkett card to form one Just So Burkett card. The Burkett card will then have the original appearance that it was meant to have, using only a Just So Actress card to accomplish this. The borders, corners, etc will not be rebuilt with modern materials. The card will be "cleaned" as was discussed in a previous post, mainly to make sure that the colors of the 2 cards match as close as possible. Although both cards are the same age, and had the same original color, there are differing kinds and amounts of "dirt" on the cards, since they have been exposed to different environments over the last 110 years. I have also attached a scan of what I hope the restored Just So Burkett card will look like, if all goes well.

I hope to never have to sell or auction this card, but you never know. I plan on keeping the full restoration report, along with before and after photos of the cards, and would share all of this information if I were to ever choose to relinquish this card from my possession. Although I hope that the workmanship on the card is great, I am confident that the restoration will be evident. It would be impossible to completely hide this level of restoration work. I am also hoping to get the card slabbed at next year's national. I would be happy with an "authentic" or "restored" or "altered" grade, as I am just looking to get the card into a holder to protect it, especially with the restoration that is going to be done.

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  #2  
Old 12-13-2004, 02:04 PM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: david

i am also against restoration but i like the idea of restoring this card to its original state. i look forward to seeing the final result and how detectable the restoration is.

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  #3  
Old 12-13-2004, 02:37 PM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: Julie

completely agree with your reasons for it, and am anxious to see the finished product.

One thing I didn't understand: are you yourself going to do the job, or hire a professional?

One thing I disagree with you about: yes, it COULD be made to look like it had NOT been restored. Perhaps, sitting next to another "Just So" card, differences might be apparent--although I'm not even sure of that--but all traces of workmanship could easily be removed, that's for sure...

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  #4  
Old 12-13-2004, 02:54 PM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: leon

I hope it turns out the way you want it to. I think it's a good idea...whatever that's worth.....let us know when you get it back if you think they did a good job or not...later

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  #5  
Old 12-13-2004, 03:18 PM
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Posted By: Scott

Definitely a good idea.

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  #6  
Old 12-13-2004, 03:37 PM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: Andy Baran

I am having the card professionally restored (and it costs a small fortune). The restoration will be evident, however slight. You can not connect 2 pieces of paper seamlessly, no matter how talented the person performing the restoration.

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  #7  
Old 12-13-2004, 09:28 PM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: Rhys

Why do they need to connect 2 pieces of paper seamlessly?

I know people who have restored cabinet cards like this before and it is not very hard. I have seen it done. A conservator can easily remove the entire photo portion of the front (takes about 1-2 hours with using no chemicals and only using water for about 2 minutes at the end). Then you skin the photo portion off of a Just So actress card and replace the photographs. Once you decide to restore the card, why not go the route of skinning it and completely replacing the mount? It would save you lots and lots of money and would have adverse financial affect on the card and I am sure the same person you are paying to the work now could do it. I am not being critical of your decision in any way, its your card and you can do what you want, but this method will make it look better in the long run and cost WAY less money. Any particular reason why you are going with the seamless paper joining route? Just Curious.

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  #8  
Old 12-13-2004, 09:57 PM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: Julie

said he could do it so that nobody would ever know the card was ever broken (neither of us wanted this, but he did say he could do it easily).

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  #9  
Old 12-13-2004, 10:10 PM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: Andy Baran

Rhys,

The Just So cards are not photos on a mount like a cabinet. They are cards,
like an Old Judge, Kalamazoo Bats, etc. The method that you are describing
won't work.

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  #10  
Old 12-14-2004, 10:06 AM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: rhys

Well that explains it, I assumed they were cabinet style photographs attached to mounts. That is how it looks from the pictures I have seen and the only ones I have seen in person were entombed in plastic so I never really examined them actually inmy hand before. I understand the intense labor involved now. Good luck on the project and for responding..

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  #11  
Old 12-14-2004, 10:24 AM
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Posted By: Jason D

Andy-

Who are you having retore this card professionally for you?

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  #12  
Old 12-14-2004, 10:45 AM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: Andy Baran

http://www.graphicconservation.com/

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  #13  
Old 12-14-2004, 12:35 PM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: Joe P.

Let's look at this in the proper perspective.
Right now you're the proud owner of a "Just So" Burkett, regardless of condition.

The moment that you have the conservator work done on it, you will no longer be the owner of a "Just So", but an owner of a HYBRID "Just So.

The question is:

Are we purist?
Double standard purist?
Or, Just So purist?

To Stabilize, or not to Stabilize?
That is the question?
Whether tis nobler in the hearts of men to stabilize the entire card hobby/industry?

Let me not think on.

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  #14  
Old 12-14-2004, 12:48 PM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: Scott

Right now he has "part" of one card. He is adding "part" of a different, but related card. The Burkett image he currently has looks pretty stable to me, but it's definitely missing something...too much in my opinion.

Of course, you could argue that if two people each owned half of a t206 Wagner, and each took their half in for "restoration", would you then have two Wagners?

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  #15  
Old 12-14-2004, 12:57 PM
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Posted By: Joe P.

Look up the word HYBRID.

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  #16  
Old 12-14-2004, 01:18 PM
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Posted By: Scott

I'm not interested in trading sarcastic wit. Can you and I take part in the same discussion thread or not?

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  #17  
Old 12-14-2004, 01:24 PM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: Joe P.

What is your take on a Hybrid card?

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  #18  
Old 12-14-2004, 01:32 PM
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Posted By: Darren J. Duet

Do what you like to it. If you were interested in selling, I'd personally pay a higher price unrestored.

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  #19  
Old 12-14-2004, 01:32 PM
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Posted By: Scott

In this case I think it's the best solution, since there is nothing remaining but the Burkett image.

I have seen some Newsboy cabinets with terrible mounts - how about removing the baseball player photo and re-mounting it on a NM non-baseball player Newsboy mount?


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  #20  
Old 12-14-2004, 01:36 PM
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Posted By: Julie

it is being RESTORED to as close to the way it originally looked as possible, whgich in this case means adding a gopod deal of CARD.

Hey, I thought Old Judges WERE "photos mounted on cardboard." In fact, I'm sure they are. I had a Galvin with the thin, thin, photo emulsion turned back on itself in one corner. Traded it to Paul Stewart--Paul, do you have a scan?

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  #21  
Old 12-14-2004, 01:39 PM
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Posted By: Scott

was that the advertising is part of the photo in the "Just So" and "Old Judge" cards, as opposed to the advertising being printed or stamped on the back mounting. I could be wrong about this, as I've never seen a "Just So" card.

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  #22  
Old 12-14-2004, 02:02 PM
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Posted By: JasonD

GIve me a break! He owns the card so who gives a hoot if he has it restored to his liking? Personally Andy I think you should do what you want........you own the card. I am so sick of whining about who is doing what and what they SHOULD do according to some of you people. He says he doesnt intend to sell and if he does that paperwork regarding the restoration will go along. I dont see any issue here. If he wants to make an oil painting out of it it is his business......who gives a **** who is willing to pay more if it is left in its "original" state. It's Any's card. I personally have never had a card restored or purposely owned one, but if that what a collector likes more power to them as long as they don't resell as unrestored.

Jason

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  #23  
Old 12-14-2004, 02:10 PM
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Posted By: Andy Baran

Scott,

For comparison purposes, the restoration that I am having done is EXACTLY the same process as it would be to combine a trimmed Old Judge Baseball Card with an intact Old Judge Actress Card. Does that make sense.


Jason,

I wasn't asking for anyones permission or support in my decision to have the card restored, though I do not mind hearing the opinions of others, yourself included. The card was already in the hands of the restoration company long before I made my post. I just wanted to start a thread to clarify exactly what I was doing with the card, since it had been mentioned is several other posts.


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  #24  
Old 12-14-2004, 02:16 PM
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Posted By: JasonD

Andy-

More power to you. I can't wait to see a posted scan of the finished product.

Jason

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  #25  
Old 12-14-2004, 02:27 PM
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Posted By: Hal Lewis

KUDOS to Andy for INFORMING EVERYONE within earshot that he is "restoring" the card.

He probably could have remained silent and sold it for big bucks to some unsupsecting buyer as a "new find" ... but he didn't.

I am against restoration of cards in general...

but given the severe amount of trimming that had occurred ...

there was really no reason NOT to restore it.

----

Obviously I would NOT have wanted him to "restore" the card if it had only been missing a tiny bit of one corner or something like that ... but this card was missing the whole border.

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  #26  
Old 12-14-2004, 02:29 PM
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Posted By: Scott

this is a unique project in that it involves a unique card and major restoration - being vintage card hobbyists, we're all interested in the process and it's implications. If any of us ever end up in a situation similar to Andy's, it will be good to have discussed this.

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  #27  
Old 12-14-2004, 02:32 PM
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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Or if any of us ever buy Andy's card...



considering that he will certainly sell it to his good buddy Hal at a "discount" now that it has been "destroyed" by the experts.

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  #28  
Old 12-14-2004, 03:03 PM
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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

1. It's Andy's card- he can do with it whatever.

2. I would not restore it if it were mine, despite the fact that Just So is probably my favorite set of all time-- I may one day own one and should not have passed on Tik's spotty Tebeau (or was it McKean) a couple years back. It is what it is.

3. I too place little stock (no pun intended) in the notion that he never plans on selling it. I'm guessing that one day he will die, and/or that the card will make its way into the market somehow, with or without him. Thus the fact that Andy may be a great, noble, honest, forthright guy is of little or at least incomplete comfort to me. A true vg-ex Burkett from Just So would go for $25K or more now, who knows how much later. Someone could get burned bad later.

4. I'm skeptical that it will be easy to observe that it has been restored. It seems very unlikely the buyer down the road will have another, real example in hand for comparison, since its doubtful that more than a handful of each subject exist, and more like two fingers full. Why not have it flat-out marked in clear, indelible/ unremovable terms "RESTORED" on the blank back if there is no intent to sell as original at any time?

5. Again, Andy can and should do what he wants. But I do have difficulty seeing much of a difference between this and the efforts by others to make restoration. I seem to recall Mike Wentz being raked for saying he had some stuff from the early 50's professionally restored for his own, non-financial purposes. I would just hope that people are consistent in their views on the subject, regardless of the card or its owner.

6. I honestly don't see any difference between restoring the entire border and "building" just one corner. If your altering the card because you find it aesthetically pleasing and you have no intent to sell or gain financially by it, what difference does it make if the card lacked a border compeltely or there was just a chunk missing/paper loss on photo/large ink marks on the face?

7. Whatever.... Andy best of luck on your project.


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  #29  
Old 12-14-2004, 03:25 PM
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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Todd:

I guess the reason I made the distinction between "one corner missing" and the "WHOLE border missing" is for the following reason:

Personally, the "Just So" Burkett card had been "defaced" so much that it had been rendered essentially worthless to me.

Sure, I would have paid Andy something for it, but NOT ANYTHING EVEN CLOSE to what I would have paid him for an ENTIRE "Just So" Burkett card that was beaten up and creased and ripped.

Basically, to me, Andy had HALF of the card... and I wouldn't pay much for half of any card.

So ... in THIS particular case ... I am OK with Andy restoring the card since it was almost worthless (comparatively speaking) in its current condition.

And to be honest, I would be inclined to pay MORE for the "restored" version of this card than I would have paid for the severely trimmed one.

BUT ... what I will pay is probably NOWHERE CLOSE to what it is going to take to pry the card from Andy. It sounds like it probably wouldn't even cover his restoration costs.

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  #30  
Old 12-14-2004, 03:34 PM
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Posted By: Andy Baran

Thanks for your post. To respond to a few of your points:

1.) I don't plan to die, ever

2.) I see a real difference in using a period actress card from the same set vs. building up a corner. I had no interest in building up corners, borders, etc. I can understand however if others do not think this difference is substancial.

3.) There are a few of reasons why I do not plan to write "RESTORED" on the card:

- The restoration company explicitly told me that the restoration will be visible, however subtle

- The same people that are restoring the card could easily remove the word "RESTORED" from the back of the card, regardless of how it is put there

- Adding "RESTORED" on the back would not be aesthetically pleasing, which is the main reason that I am having the card restored

- To be honest, I realize that I might have to sell the card some day. I don't know if this restoration will increase or decrease the value of the card (I suspect it is neutral), but writing "RESTORED" on the back would most certainly lower its value. While my motives are not to increase the value, with the money that I spent on the card, and the cost of restoration, I couldn't afford to lose money on it.

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  #31  
Old 12-14-2004, 03:49 PM
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Posted By: Joe P.

My post was directed to you, and you read it as it was meant to be.
You know that I wasn't putting you down.
You were also able to comprehend when I said that the outcome of your project would look better.
Unlike some on this board, you also were able to pick up on my opinion as an opinion, and nothing more.
An opinion derivative to the thread based on the surprise doctoring (to some) of some of our auctioning houses.
Horrors, the loosely used stabilized word by some of the our auction house stalwarts have unscrewed the legs of many of the Studio 54 aficionados billiard tables.

"It isn't restoration, we're just cleaning and stabilizing the item."

Oh is that all?
OK do what you have to do.

Andy, you are doing this for your own satisfaction, and there's nothing wrong with that.
You're not doing this to sell, or smokescreen anyone.
You have told the world.

Wouldn't it be nice if the the auction houses would do the same?

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  #32  
Old 12-14-2004, 04:50 PM
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Posted By: Julie

I still maintain that there's a PHOTO on the Old Judge CARD. The photo is ONLY of the player and his surroundings, and SOMETIMES his name and the N173 negative engraving. The Card has his name, team, position, and "Goodwin & Company, New York" on the front and (if you're lucky) Nothing on the back.

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  #33  
Old 12-14-2004, 07:27 PM
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Posted By: Scott

you are right.

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  #34  
Old 12-14-2004, 07:32 PM
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Posted By: Julie Vognar

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  #35  
Old 12-14-2004, 07:38 PM
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Posted By: Scott

it really depends on what your defition of "is" is.

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  #36  
Old 12-14-2004, 07:43 PM
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Posted By: Julie Vognar

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  #37  
Old 12-14-2004, 07:48 PM
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Posted By: Scott

the important thing is how the differences between a cabinet card and a card such as an OJ (or "Just So"), where the albumen goes all the way to the edge of the card, affect a restoration effort. If a "Just So" were a true cabinet card, restoration would be much simpler - just skin Jessie off the remaining backing and glue him to the actress mount. I doubt anyone would even notice.

As it is, the restorer has to actually cut the actress image out of the card, replace it with Burkett's image, then "mend" the seam between the two (if I am understanding this right).

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  #38  
Old 12-15-2004, 09:26 AM
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Posted By: Julie

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  #39  
Old 12-24-2004, 05:38 PM
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Posted By: Tom

THIS CARD THAT YOU OWN AND HAVING RESTORED WILL BE WORTH FAR LESS THAT YOUR MIND CAN EVER IMAGINE. FUTURE GENERATION WILL ASK THIS QUESTION WHY WAS THIS DONE. SOMETIMES IT'S FAR BETTER TO LEAVE THINGS ALONG THAN TRYING TO CHANGE OR ALTER HISTORY AND TRUE, BUT SAD TO SAY THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO DO. FOR HISTORIAL NATURE OF THIS FANASTIC HOBBY OF CARD COLLECTING I PLEAD NOT TO HAVE THIS DONE. THIS CARD THAT YOU OWN HAS BEEN IN THIS CONDITION AS YOU HAVE STATED FOR 110 YEARS THAT IS NOT REASON TO CHANGE IT NOW, BUT PRESERVE THE CARD IN IT NATURE STATE FOR FUTURE GENERATION TO ENJOY.

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  #40  
Old 12-24-2004, 07:06 PM
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Posted By: Andy Baran

Tom,

I completely disagree with you, as does the majority of folks that I have spoken to. I hope that you don't lose any sleep over my decision. I know that I won't.

Don't you have a Sporting News Thorpe Reprint to worry about instead of my Just So Tobacco Burkett?

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  #41  
Old 12-24-2004, 07:53 PM
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Posted By: Joe P.

The stabilization has been completed.

One can now only hope that the implants will not move or sag.

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  #42  
Old 12-25-2004, 07:53 AM
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Posted By: warshawlaw

ballpark, how much is the small fortune it costs to do it?

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  #43  
Old 12-25-2004, 08:59 AM
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Posted By: Andy Baran

It will cost me several thousand dollars to have it restored.

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  #44  
Old 12-25-2004, 09:35 AM
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Posted By: Julie

I was so amazed that Mastro didn't charge the consignor for the,er, cleaning they had done to the Keeler portrait. I realize a lot more work has been(or is in the process of being) done to Burkett, but I would think the Keeler must have cost at least a K to clean, fill in the holes and, er, stabilize it.

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  #45  
Old 12-25-2004, 11:10 AM
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Posted By: warshawlaw

I was looking into having a severely damaged family photo from the "old country" repaired and while items like that are priceless to the family, the magnitude of cost you are undertaking is far more than I would want to spend. I think I will settle for digitizing it and repairing the image as best as I can with Digital Image Pro, then printing new copies.

For what it is worth (not much), I don't think I'd want to own a card as radically rebuilt as yours will be. I don't buy rebacked OJs for that reason. Just my personal preference. I also don't buy cards that have been severely damaged. I'd just rather not have one than have an aesthetically unpleasing card. I've passed on some very rare cards that I really wanted (a 1958 Bell Cimoli and a Darby Chocolates card come to mind) because I knew I just would not enjoy them given their conditions. The worst condition card I own is about 85% of a rare exhibit variation and I only bought it because it was $3.

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  #46  
Old 12-25-2004, 11:39 AM
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Posted By: Jay Miller

You people seem to forget that this is Andy's card, not society's card. He paid his money for it and can do what he wants with it. Sounds like he is doing something positive while costing himself a chunk of change. If Andy wanted to draw a moustache on the card or poke a small hole in it and have sex with it that would be fine too---it's his (..er, maybe orgetfa the last idea). Merry Christmas all!

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  #47  
Old 12-25-2004, 12:19 PM
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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Jay,

A small hole? Don't insult the guy.

Greg

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  #48  
Old 12-25-2004, 02:57 PM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: Julie

sportscard restoration! Check it out...

I'm sure I speak for many, many when I say that if that card shows up on the market, I will be scrambling...

Oh yes: like Jay, I don't plan to die, ever...

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  #49  
Old 12-25-2004, 03:06 PM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: Tom

Andy, you must have or had so doubt in your mind to restore this card. The reason being is either you wanted to get these expert on this forum opinion subconsciously are not in your mind that you were or was doing the right thing. 99.99% of the human race will most offen ask someone else opinion on what they are about to do or attempting to do. Sure this is your card and I fully understand what you are attemping to do, with this baseball card, but once it done you will never be able to go back and undo what has been done. I ask you one question? Does the many out number the one or does the one out number the many? What I am referring to is future generation of people that someday most likly will on this card. Do we really have the right to alter something of historial value as this 1893 JUST SO BASEBALL card just because we can do it? That is your call and your's alone. Please think about it some more. As far as my Jim Thorpe card I will never give up on that subject until justice prevail.

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Old 12-25-2004, 03:24 PM
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Default Just So Tobacco Burkett Restoration Project

Posted By: Andy Baran

Tom,

You completely missed the point of this. For the record:

1.) The card restoration had begun BEFORE I bothered to post. I didn't ask for opinions about whether or not I should do it, just stated facts about the restoration. I am always willing to listen to opinions, but I just wanted to make clear exactly what I was doing, since it was mentioned in other posts.

2.) All of the restoration is 100% REVERSIBLE. If a future owner wants to return the card to it's "original" trimmed state, they will be able to do so. I say "original" in quotes, because the original state in which I bought the card was trimmed, but the original condition of the card was untrimmed.

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