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  #1  
Old 10-29-2021, 11:57 AM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Default Where is the second ledger of T cards?

Much new information has been found on the boxing sub-forum lately on the larger context of the ATC, ALC, the previously unknown-in-card-world Brett Lithography and the printing of T cards beyond boxing subjects (https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=309276), and some discussed in Pat's thread on the implications to T206.

One of the key pieces of evidence is this ledger/journal/possibly court-prep, that my poor self didn't bid on last year. It includes numerous N and T sets, but the auction listing at Lelands only shows a few select pages. I was hoping someone here might have been the winner, or know who is. Presumably whoever spent $8,000 on it is an active hobbyist . Whoever has possession of the material could do a great service to the research side of the hobby and to our understanding of what happened and how to create these sets, so I am hoping they will chime in and share images of the pages or be willing to discuss the book. Mr. Fullgraff appears to have been an instrumental link between the ATC and the lithographers.

There is no evidence baseball cards specifically are in this book, but it seems to me to be relevant to the context of the baseball T sets and how they were designed, printed, and issued and the business relationship between the companies responsible for this brief golden era of card production. If this is considered off topic, I apologize in advance! Feel free to delete
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  #2  
Old 11-20-2022, 11:16 PM
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It's been a year, so I figure it's okay to bump. The odds that this item is in the possession of a board member or someone in their social network seems pretty high. The material in here would be of immense value to hobby research if it's owner would be willing to share its contents.

https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=97657
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  #3  
Old 11-22-2022, 06:14 PM
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Greg, when you originally posted this thread I was hoping the person that purchased the book or someone with more information would respond, there's some very useful information just in the few images Leland's posted.

In the write up they give credit to Fullgraff for coming up with the Turkey Red cigarette name but to me it looks it might have been Julius (I can't make out the last name) Bionter? that came up with the Turkey Red name.
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Old 11-22-2022, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Greg, when you originally posted this thread I was hoping the person that purchased the book or someone with more information would respond, there's some very useful information just in the few images Leland's posted.

In the write up they give credit to Fullgraff for coming up with the Turkey Red cigarette name but to me it looks it might have been Julius (I can't make out the last name) Bionter? that came up with the Turkey Red name.
I think you are right and it is definitely "this brand [coined?] and named, January 30th, 1909 by Julius Bionter" by the prototype pack art. They are reading the purple stamp of Fullgraff's name that appears to be on most pages as the conclusion of the statement, instead of the statement being written around the stamp.

I have never been able to find anything on who this man was. We found a lot on Fullgraff, though there's a lot more we need, but I have never been able to find anything on this "Bionter" [I'm pretty sure that's the name, the second letter clearly has a "i" style dot] fellow. He doesn't appear in any of the ATC/AL/Brett documents I have found or in the old industry periodicals, that I can find. Unless I am reading his name wrong.

I would not have expected Turkey Red to be such a new brand.
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Last edited by G1911; 11-22-2022 at 07:20 PM.
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  #5  
Old 11-22-2022, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
I think you are right and it is definitely "this brand [coined?] and named, January 30th, 1909 by Julius Bionter" by the prototype pack art. They are reading the purple stamp of Fullgraff's name that appears to be on most pages as the conclusion of the statement, instead of the statement being written around the stamp.

I have never been able to find anything on who this man was. We found a lot on Fullgraff, though there's a lot more we need, but I have never been able to find anything on this "Bionter" [I'm pretty sure that's the name, the second letter clearly has a "i" style dot] fellow. He doesn't appear in any of the ATC/AL/Brett documents I have found or in the old industry periodicals, that I can find. Unless I am reading his name wrong.

I would not have expected Turkey Red to be such a new brand.
Yeah I've never been able to find anything about Turkey Red cigarettes before 1909 but I did just find something very interesting by searching Julius Bion instead of Bionter.

img192.jpg

img193.jpg

There was a lot of information on Julius Bion that I'm going to go back and check on.
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  #6  
Old 11-22-2022, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Yeah I've never been able to find anything about Turkey Red cigarettes before 1909 but I did just find something very interesting by searching Julius Bion instead of Bionter.

Attachment 543709

Attachment 543710

There was a lot of information on Julius Bion that I'm going to go back and check on.
I never would have thought to shorten the name. 49 year gap, but a lithographer naming the brand would, while odd the surface, mesh with other things we found. It still surprises me just how much of American Tobacco’s business was apparently outsourced to lithographers in a loose network of firms who doubled as marketing and brand managers. Fullgraff at present seems to be not only the architect of many (possibly the T card renaissance as a whole) of these sets but the connection between these industries’ odd relationships. As a huge monopoly I would have expected them to have more control of their own product than they seem to have had.
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Old 11-22-2022, 11:19 PM
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Julius Bion & Co. appear to have done a lot of printing work for the United States Senate in the 1890's. This firm's name is repeated throughout their "Reports of the Public Printer". Here's the 1895 book covering 1893-1894, and in which this firm appears many times: https://www.google.com/books/edition...C?hl=en&gbpv=0. He appears in House reports from the 1880's, did some work for the Commerce, Agriculture and State departments that are all in similar resources on Google Books. This moves us a lot closer to 1909. Bion may not be this man in the ledger but he was probably in Fullgraff's network, who was in the business at this same time and his primary career seems to have been networking.
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  #8  
Old 11-22-2022, 11:38 PM
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I suspect Julius Bien & Co. and Julius Bion & Co., lithographers with a specialty in producing maps, are the exact same thing, and this is just another example of inconsistent spelling.

Under the name Bien, instead of Bion, this firm is clearly active in 1909. Government printing office reports continue to refer to them in 1911 (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover), and in 1914.

Evidently, Bien/Bion was bidding against American Lithography for government contracts in 1911, and losing. If this is the same man (I have a hard time believing there was a Julius Bion, Julius Bien, and Julius Bionter all in the same industry in management roles of some kind at the same time, can't say for sure but it seems very likely), he, like we have continually found with these lithographers, seems to both be competing with American Lithography and also working with them, and with other lithographers. We have Old Masters, Brett 100% doing some of the printing, Bien designing brands and marketing materials, American Lithography. The traditional claim that AL and the ATC were the solitary partners on the American Tobacco companies cards certainly does not seem to be the case.
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Old 11-22-2022, 11:53 PM
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Ha, I thought Bien sounded real familiar and went back to our previous thread here (https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...=309276&page=2).

Fullgraff was a clerk for Bien in the 1890's, from the same source I found that gave us Fullgraff's membership in the New York Athletic Club (which seems to relate to t218 and T220, many of those portrayed he surely knew personally) and the Larchmont.

You found a source of them being on Sixth Avenue in NY from between at least 1898-1915.

This is clearly all the same person/firm at this point.
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  #10  
Old 11-23-2022, 12:01 AM
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I recognize Julius Bien & Co from the Buchner Gold Coin series. I collect the set and was doing some research on the fly in this thread, see post 31.

www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=284915


Hopefully, the winner of the Leland's lot will chime in.
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Other Louisiana issues T216 T215 T214 T213 Etc
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  #11  
Old 11-23-2022, 01:42 AM
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There's another connection, another N card involved individual coming up again in the T card project once the law changed.

Bien fought in the 1848 Springtime revolutions, was the first President of the National Lithographers Association, and was the leader of B'nai B'rith for over 3 decades according to Wikipedia. Died in December of 1909. Seems like the fellow lived quite a varied life, just like Fullgraff. His son donated a portrait to the Smithsonian in 1920, painted by George Da Maduro Peixotto.

Fullgraff's sporting interests, Bien's in birds and fish and maps, correlate strongly to the subjects chosen for the card projects, which appear to have been chosen by the lithographers and not the ATC from our 2021 research. Fullgraff's seem to be causation more than correlation.

Here's a modern reprint credited to his firm originally for the "American Eagle Tobacco Company": https://pixels.com/featured/american...uct=wood-print picturing Lily Langtry, who crops up in many places in advertising and public interest during this period and seems to be one of those women famous for being famous and being associated to numerous men. Still looking for other connections to tobacco.
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  #12  
Old 11-23-2022, 02:09 AM
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Bien produced a map for the Interior Department showing the "regions producing the principal types of tobacco" as part of the tenth census, which would have been a few years before the Buchner cards. https://www.google.com/books/edition...J?hl=en&gbpv=0

An 1898 edition of Profitable Advertising (https://www.google.com/books/edition...J?hl=en&gbpv=0) reports:

"The well-known lithographic house of Julius Bien & Co., New York, lately executed one million sheets for the American Tobacco Company. It is easier for the average person to state this fact than it is for him to comprehend the size of such an order, or the amount of labor involved in executing the same".

In 1912, Bien & co. patented a number of cigar brands I am not familiar with, listed on page 691 here; https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover. They appear in other annual reports recording their rights to slogans and names for other non-tobacco products.

They appear to have had financial issues with creditors in 1914, that made its way to the New York Supreme Court. A single creditor claimed over $65,000 owed to him. Companies assets were assessed at about $39,000. Perhaps one of our lawyers may make better work of this than I. https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover. It seems at this time Bien's son and namesake and a Franklin Bien, who may be another son, were running the show. Included in the records are plenty of itemized jobs and payments to Liggett & Myers, for cigar labels, "dancing inserts" and more. Some single tobacco jobs netted as much as $22,500, which is a lot of money for a print job in 1914. It is a lengthy read, and I have not read the entire text yet.

It seems clear and evident this firm had deep relationships in the tobacco industry and decades of partnering with the leading tobacco firms.

Fullgraff worked directly for American Lithography, Brett, Bien, and American Tobacco at different points in the 1890's-1910's. He seems to have continued to do business with all of them before and after his direct employments, a cross-industry project manager and networker for whom what we might now call conflicts of interest seem to have been his desirable asset.
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Old 11-23-2022, 02:42 AM
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And, I found another detail of Frank G. Fullgraff's life I did not find in the original deep dive, his marriage record. He wed an Anna L. Simpkins on September 10, 1874. It was recorded in the New York Herald, and transcribed into this book: https://www.google.com/books/edition...C?hl=en&gbpv=0. Frank G. was born in 1851.

An Anna Fullgraff petitioned the Parks Department in 1884 to improve some city streets (https://www.google.com/books/edition...J?hl=en&gbpv=0).

Anna Fullgraff left or sold to Clara Simpkins 2 buildings (5 and 3 story tenement buildings) on Downing Street in 1900. Fullgraff clearly was financially successful before his very lucrative contract at Brett Lithography. https://www.google.com/books/edition...J?hl=en&gbpv=0. Frank and Anna appear to have themselves lived on West 23rd Street.

Fullgraff was a swimmer, baseball player (Grammarcy), rifle champion, rower, billiardist and more in the sporting world. Pat found a record of him being said rifle champion, but no more was found. I found a record (https://www.google.com/books/edition...J?hl=en&gbpv=1), from the NRA competition:

"At the autumn meting of the National Rifle Association 1876, the following remarkable score was made at 200 yards, off-hand, with a military rifle. Frank G Fullgraff 5, 5, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5 -- 34 out of 35." Truly impressive marksmanship with a trapdoor.


These particular trail may never tie back into the card sets, but Fullgraff's life has often turned out to us to connect back to a card topic later and given new insight, and the board did ask for more research posts today.
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Old 11-23-2022, 03:23 AM
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I've found an amusing baseball anecdote while digging into Fullgraff and the sports world, and another source that Fullgraff was a member of the Larchmont, who appear in T59 as one of the obscure associations in the fourth series. Fullgraff may or may not have put this set together. Fullgraff played in a "water baseball game" between a club of married men against a team of single men. This "was simply a lark frolic in the water" and Fullgraff "in a woman's yachting costume, fell into the water with a scream, shrill as a locomotives shriek, and created a momentary scare among the uninitiated." This event seems to have been the highlight of the water baseball game, whose score is not given. https://www.google.com/books/edition...J?hl=en&gbpv=0


I cannot see the entirety of this book or the full section (https://www.google.com/books/edition...aff%20baseball), but we learn that "( By Frank G. Fullgraff of Brooklyn , a Club veteran who served as a member of the 22nd Regiment of the New York National ... He has given up his first love — baseball — but he still retains his love for athletics , as his residence ..."

Another source (https://www.google.com/books/edition...J?hl=en&gbpv=0) mentioning the 1876 NRA event where Fullgraff won a marksmanship contest confirms him as a member of the 22nd regiment. In the firearms world, the 22nd New York regiment of this time was considered skilled in sport shooting and had deep ties to the fledgling NRA. Some of their shooting rules and methods were adopted as NRA standard for broader competition, when the NRA was an NY club primarily teaching and preaching good marksmanship.

His rank in the 22nd appears to have been a private (https://www.google.com/books/edition...J?hl=en&gbpv=0)
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Old 11-23-2022, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
I suspect Julius Bien & Co. and Julius Bion & Co., lithographers with a specialty in producing maps, are the exact same thing, and this is just another example of inconsistent spelling.

Under the name Bien, instead of Bion, this firm is clearly active in 1909. Government printing office reports continue to refer to them in 1911 (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover), and in 1914.

Evidently, Bien/Bion was bidding against American Lithography for government contracts in 1911, and losing. If this is the same man (I have a hard time believing there was a Julius Bion, Julius Bien, and Julius Bionter all in the same industry in management roles of some kind at the same time, can't say for sure but it seems very likely), he, like we have continually found with these lithographers, seems to both be competing with American Lithography and also working with them, and with other lithographers. We have Old Masters, Brett 100% doing some of the printing, Bien designing brands and marketing materials, American Lithography. The traditional claim that AL and the ATC were the solitary partners on the American Tobacco companies cards certainly does not seem to be the case.
Yes, it didn't dawn on me when I posted the clips but after I went back to look at some of the additional information last night I came to the same conclusion as you.

Last edited by Pat R; 11-23-2022 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 11-23-2022, 06:00 PM
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Fascinating!
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Old 11-23-2022, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
Bien produced a map for the Interior Department showing the "regions producing the principal types of tobacco" as part of the tenth census, which would have been a few years before the Buchner cards. https://www.google.com/books/edition...J?hl=en&gbpv=0

An 1898 edition of Profitable Advertising (https://www.google.com/books/edition...J?hl=en&gbpv=0) reports:

"The well-known lithographic house of Julius Bien & Co., New York, lately executed one million sheets for the American Tobacco Company. It is easier for the average person to state this fact than it is for him to comprehend the size of such an order, or the amount of labor involved in executing the same".

In 1912, Bien & co. patented a number of cigar brands I am not familiar with, listed on page 691 here; https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover. They appear in other annual reports recording their rights to slogans and names for other non-tobacco products.

They appear to have had financial issues with creditors in 1914, that made its way to the New York Supreme Court. A single creditor claimed over $65,000 owed to him. Companies assets were assessed at about $39,000. Perhaps one of our lawyers may make better work of this than I. https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover. It seems at this time Bien's son and namesake and a Franklin Bien, who may be another son, were running the show. Included in the records are plenty of itemized jobs and payments to Liggett & Myers, for cigar labels, "dancing inserts" and more. Some single tobacco jobs netted as much as $22,500, which is a lot of money for a print job in 1914. It is a lengthy read, and I have not read the entire text yet.

It seems clear and evident this firm had deep relationships in the tobacco industry and decades of partnering with the leading tobacco firms.

Fullgraff worked directly for American Lithography, Brett, Bien, and American Tobacco at different points in the 1890's-1910's. He seems to have continued to do business with all of them before and after his direct employments, a cross-industry project manager and networker for whom what we might now call conflicts of interest seem to have been his desirable asset.
I think a lot of people in the hobby don't realize how big the tobacco card printings were at the time and I'm not talking about just T206's, that's one of the things we have learned from these ledgers/albums. I also think there is a misconception about some of the changes that were made in these sets, in general there are far more changes that could have been made that weren't than changes that were made. I think the ones that were made were because they were done at an opportune time like a change over to another series or another facility. I don't believe they would stop in the middle of these huge projects to make a change because a player was on a different team or something similar.

Hopefully we can eventually get more information on the other pages that were in this register book.

A friend has an old album that he sent me to look through and the colors on the cards are amazing unfortunately my photography skills are not.

Here are a few of the pages if I remember there were 50-60 pages left in the album when he got it but most of the baseball and other sports cards were removed before he got it.

[IMG][/IMG]


[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

Last edited by Pat R; 11-23-2022 at 06:47 PM.
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