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  #101  
Old 11-23-2022, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
I guess I didn't realize that if a raw card goes to CSG, they are both authenticating it AND matching up what the seller said it would grade? That must get interesting fast, since descriptions of raw cards on eBay many times don't conform to a TPG's 10 point scale. What if they said a card was EX, but in the opposite direction - CSG said no, this is NM! Would that be rejected for being the "wrong" grade even if it were higher? I once bought a '61 Willie Mays AS that was described as "EX" by an eBay outfit that was more of an antique mall than a pure card dealer. When I sent it off to SGC, it came back an 8. Would that have "failed" authentication?
They aren't grading the card or making judgements on sellers grading, they make sure its not counterfeit and they match it to photos in the auction to make sure its the same card.
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  #102  
Old 11-23-2022, 11:26 AM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim65 View Post
They aren't grading the card or making judgements on sellers grading, they make sure its not counterfeit and they match it to photos in the auction to make sure its the same card.
This is not true. This is not what the raw program claimed to do - they are supposed to make sure the card matches the sellers description, including condition. Cards have been rejected for sellers over grading them, like the Bowman Spahn card.
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  #103  
Old 11-23-2022, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
This is not true. This is not what the raw program claimed to do - they are supposed to make sure the card matches the sellers description, including condition. Cards have been rejected for sellers over grading them, like the Bowman Spahn card.
I can see where this would get super frustrating. Agreed that buyers should have an option to opt out of the authenticity guarantee. Some of the vintage cards I have seen thus far in CSG slabs are waaaaaay overgraded. I wouldn't want them casting judgement on raw cards that I bought online.
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  #104  
Old 11-24-2022, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim65 View Post
They aren't grading the card or making judgements on sellers grading, they make sure its not counterfeit and they match it to photos in the auction to make sure its the same card.
This is not true. In fact, the only cards I've purchased that were rejected were done so because of the condition not matching the description.

I even consigned some cards with Probstein that got rejected by CSG. When I looked at the listings, it was difficult to see that there were wrinkles (they were low-grade raw cards). He sent them back to me, and I relisted them myself and put "wrinkle" in the title and showed clear pics of the wrinkles and called them out in the description (something Probstein should have done as well). They passed authentication for me.
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https://net54baseball.com/showthread...35#post2132535

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=46
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  #105  
Old 11-24-2022, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
I can see where this would get super frustrating. Agreed that buyers should have an option to opt out of the authenticity guarantee. Some of the vintage cards I have seen thus far in CSG slabs are waaaaaay overgraded. I wouldn't want them casting judgement on raw cards that I bought online.
Do you have links you can share for the overgraded CSG slabs you've found? I've come across a couple, but not a lot. They've been pretty on point from most of what I've encountered.
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I'm a data scientist who works on problems that are very similar to the problem of "AI" card grading. Here are some links to some of my thoughts on the topic.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...35#post2132535

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=46
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  #106  
Old 11-25-2022, 05:48 AM
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The authenticators aren't supposed to reject cards that are off grade from what the seller claims (VGEX instead of EX or EX instead of EXMT) They are looking for hidden undisclosed damage and flaws, wrinkles, trimming, erasures, etc. If those flaws are disclosed or clearly shown in the photos, as long as the card is authentic, its supposed to pass.
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  #107  
Old 11-25-2022, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim65 View Post
The authenticators aren't supposed to reject cards that are off grade from what the seller claims (VGEX instead of EX or EX instead of EXMT) They are looking for hidden undisclosed damage and flaws, wrinkles, trimming, erasures, etc. If those flaws are disclosed or clearly shown in the photos, as long as the card is authentic, its supposed to pass.
They are looking for undisclosed damage or a lying grade. I doubt they will go so literal as to reject a EX+ they think is EX, but they are absolutely rejecting cards with overstated grades. List a card as gem mint and disclose the crease, watch what happens.
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  #108  
Old 11-25-2022, 12:22 PM
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So here's a good one. I recently bought a PSA graded Pedro Martinez autograph card, standard Leaf issue, was clearly fine, PSA REJECTS it and ebay refunds me. PSA tells the seller the case was cracked. He gets it back it's not cracked at all. But here is where it gets even stranger, they send him a note telling him when he RELISTS it, to use a higher resolution scan, when his scan was already outstanding. The whole thing makes no sense, and why are they telling him to relist it if they just rejected it?
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  #109  
Old 11-25-2022, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
So here's a good one. I recently bought a PSA graded Pedro Martinez autograph card, standard Leaf issue, was clearly fine, PSA REJECTS it and ebay refunds me. PSA tells the seller the case was cracked. He gets it back it's not cracked at all. But here is where it gets even stranger, they send him a note telling him when he RELISTS it, to use a higher resolution scan, when his scan was already outstanding. The whole thing makes no sense, and why are they telling him to relist it if they just rejected it?
If the seller is honestly relating what happened to you … uh… Wow.
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  #110  
Old 11-25-2022, 12:41 PM
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If the seller is honestly relating what happened to you … uh… Wow.
I think he is. He isn't asking me to buy the card again or anything, so no reason to make anything up.
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  #111  
Old 11-25-2022, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I think he is. He isn't asking me to buy the card again or anything, so no reason to make anything up.
I suspect that it was an ebay rep who actually told him to use higher resolution scans next time, just hoping that it might resolve whatever issue it was that they couldn't figure out. Regardless, it's still bonkers. This whole ebay authentication thing is a clusterF.
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I'm a data scientist who works on problems that are very similar to the problem of "AI" card grading. Here are some links to some of my thoughts on the topic.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...35#post2132535

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=46
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  #112  
Old 11-25-2022, 01:27 PM
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/25578755835...Bk9SR_qy-YOWYQ
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
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He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
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  #113  
Old 11-25-2022, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Those aren't scans.

And the bottom edge of the slab is covered.

Last edited by Tabe; 11-25-2022 at 03:37 PM.
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  #114  
Old 11-28-2022, 07:34 PM
Kutcher55 Kutcher55 is offline
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(Sigh) The buyer should have the option to waive this service especially if the card is graded by one of the big 3. What a freakin waste of time and shipping materials. And does anyone actually keep the card on that ridiculous cardboard monstrosity? Jeesh.
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  #115  
Old 11-29-2022, 03:42 PM
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Another missing cog in the program is that complete sets appear to be ignored. So they'll be sure that your single $700 slab purchase is ok (but not the multitude of high-value cards in a $50 k set)

At least that's what I'm assuming, since there isn't the typical mention of the authentication program in the listings of such sets.
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  #116  
Old 11-29-2022, 04:47 PM
Gorditadogg Gorditadogg is offline
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Originally Posted by Kutcher55 View Post
(Sigh) The buyer should have the option to waive this service especially if the card is graded by one of the big 3. What a freakin waste of time and shipping materials. And does anyone actually keep the card on that ridiculous cardboard monstrosity? Jeesh.
Oh sure, I would not have a problem if there was a form a buyer could sign saying something like "I believe this card is mis-represented or fake but I want to buy it anyway and waive any recourse against the seller or ebay".

I personally wouldn't sign that but if there are people who think that would be a good thing, well okay let's have ebay make it an option.

Last edited by Gorditadogg; 11-29-2022 at 09:21 PM.
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  #117  
Old 12-02-2022, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
Do you have links you can share for the overgraded CSG slabs you've found? I've come across a couple, but not a lot. They've been pretty on point from most of what I've encountered.
Sorry Travis, somehow missed your reply. I was talking most recently about a card I saw in person. It was a '63 Topps Ernie Banks at my LCS in a CSG 2.5. It looked pretty decent and I was actually considering buying it, when I noticed a cut and not small area of paper loss on the surface on the bottom right. It should have been pretty obvious to a grader. No way that card should have been more than a 1.

Others, like with shopping online - I seem to see some discrepancies with cards in upper midgrade that have questionable corner wear for the grade assigned.
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Last edited by jchcollins; 12-02-2022 at 08:56 AM.
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  #118  
Old 12-02-2022, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Tabe View Post
Those aren't scans.

And the bottom edge of the slab is covered.
No they are certainly not scans and the cell phone pics are not that clear but how did PSA give that card a 9? The upper right corner is a 6, at best.
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  #119  
Old 12-02-2022, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
Sorry Travis, somehow missed your reply. I was talking most recently about a card I saw in person. It was a '63 Topps Ernie Banks at my LCS in a CSG 2.5. It looked pretty decent and I was actually considering buying it, when I noticed a cut and not small area of paper loss on the surface on the bottom right. It should have been pretty obvious to a grader. No way that card should have been more than a 1.

Others, like with shopping online - I seem to see some discrepancies with cards in upper midgrade that have questionable corner wear for the grade assigned.
Ya, paper loss on the front should probably be a bit harsher than that. Although I'm somewhat of the mind that PSA & SGC do this wrong as well sometimes, but it's the standard of the industry, so might as well uphold the it.

The corners thing is mostly where I've seen CSG overgrade cards, but I'm not sure I've seen them overgrade for that at a higher rate than what I've seen from PSA or SGC. As an example, here's a Jackie card in a 6 holder that I came across recently. Beautiful card, but if I sent that in, I'd be crossing my fingers for a 4, and PSA probably gives it a 3.5 nowadays (once upon a time, they would have given it a 5). Basically, all the TPGs are seemingly all over the place with respect to corners.
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File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2022-11-26 at 11.52.45 PM.jpg (116.3 KB, 46 views)
__________________
I'm a data scientist who works on problems that are very similar to the problem of "AI" card grading. Here are some links to some of my thoughts on the topic.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...35#post2132535

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=46
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  #120  
Old 12-02-2022, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
Sorry Travis, somehow missed your reply. I was talking most recently about a card I saw in person. It was a '63 Topps Ernie Banks at my LCS in a CSG 2.5. It looked pretty decent and I was actually considering buying it, when I noticed a cut and not small area of paper loss on the surface on the bottom right. It should have been pretty obvious to a grader. No way that card should have been more than a 1.

Others, like with shopping online - I seem to see some discrepancies with cards in upper midgrade that have questionable corner wear for the grade assigned.
Ya, paper loss on the front should probably be a bit harsher than that. Although I'm somewhat of the mind that PSA & SGC do this wrong as well sometimes, but it's the standard of the industry, so might as well uphold the it.

The corners thing is mostly where I've seen CSG overgrade cards, but I'm not sure I've seen them overgrade for that at a higher rate than what I've seen from PSA or SGC. As an example, here's a Jackie card in a 6 holder that I came across recently. Beautiful card, but if I sent that in, I'd be crossing my fingers for a 4, and PSA probably gives it a 3.5 nowadays (once upon a time, they would have given it a 5). Basically, all the TPGs are seemingly all over the place with respect to corners.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2022-11-26 at 11.52.45 PM.jpg (116.3 KB, 47 views)
__________________
I'm a data scientist who works on problems that are very similar to the problem of "AI" card grading. Here are some links to some of my thoughts on the topic.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...35#post2132535

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=46

Last edited by Snowman; 12-02-2022 at 08:44 PM.
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  #121  
Old Yesterday, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
As an example, here's a Jackie card in a 6 holder that I came across recently. Beautiful card, but if I sent that in, I'd be crossing my fingers for a 4, and PSA probably gives it a 3.5 nowadays (once upon a time, they would have given it a 5). Basically, all the TPGs are seemingly all over the place with respect to corners.
Yeah, no way that Jackie realistically has 6 corners. So what you are saying is what has always more or less been true about professional grading: The subjective scale based on eye appeal waxes and wanes, and standards fluctuate over time. This is why all TPG's to me at the end of the day still smack of at least some type of gimmick.
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Last edited by jchcollins; Yesterday at 08:29 AM.
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