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  #1  
Old 11-23-2022, 02:23 PM
Onlineracing Onlineracing is offline
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Default How does CSG compare?

Looking for opinions on CSG slabbed cards. How do they compare value wise compared to PSA and SGC? 60%? 80%? I am looking at some cards slabbed by CSG and just not familiar with them. Any help would be apricated.
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  #2  
Old 11-23-2022, 02:54 PM
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Default A few I've spoken to like them

I will not touch them with a 10-foot pole for now. The quality of grading is inconsistent and inconsistent with PSA and SGC and they are hard to sell. There is a CSG 8 52 Mantle in an upcoming auction - really curious to see how it does (and hoping it isn't one of the "powers that be" behind CSG bidding it up!
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  #3  
Old 11-23-2022, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcv123 View Post
I will not touch them with a 10-foot pole for now. The quality of grading is inconsistent and inconsistent with PSA and SGC and they are hard to sell. There is a CSG 8 52 Mantle in an upcoming auction - really curious to see how it does (and hoping it isn't one of the "powers that be" behind CSG bidding it up!
I somehow doubt that auction is going to be entirely an honest result.
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  #4  
Old 11-23-2022, 03:02 PM
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I somehow doubt that auction is going to be entirely an honest result.
Any chance you have any real proof or is that purely hearsay?
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  #5  
Old 11-23-2022, 03:03 PM
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In some ways, they're just so new that it's hard to tell with any degree of confidence.

One thing you might try if you really want to dig in here. I know that PWCC tends to auction off a lot of CSG items. So you could take a look at their weekly auctions for the last few weeks. Pick out a few pieces where you can get a good sense as to their pricing, then compare to similarly graded items from PSA and SGC. It will probably be difficult to try to nail it down to a precise amount, simply because the results will probably vary widely. That and some will suggest that being on PWCC's auction site has the possibility to also skew the results.

You will probably also want to try to stick to a similar time period as what you're considering picking up. You might find that a lot of the CSG pieces are modern items, maybe with some post-war vintage at lower grades sprinkled in. So there might not be a whole lot of data to evaluate, especially if you're looking at pre-war pieces.

But with any luck, with a bit of homework, you'll at least get a sense as to whether the discount is commonly 25%, 50%, or 75%, give or take.
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  #6  
Old 11-23-2022, 03:05 PM
raulus raulus is online now
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Any chance you have any real proof or is that purely hearsay?
I think we're all just assuming there must be some hijinks at play here, simply because no one in their right mind would proceed on this basis.

I suppose we'll see how the final results play out. If it sells for $3M, then we'll all suspect that the auction was manipulated. If it sells for $100k, then probably less so.
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  #7  
Old 11-23-2022, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raulus View Post
I think we're all just assuming there must be some hijinks at play here, simply because no one in their right mind would proceed on this basis.

I suppose we'll see how the final results play out. If it sells for $3M, then we'll all suspect that the auction was manipulated. If it sells for $100k, then probably less so.
I was just being a smart butt as Greg always asks for proof. You don't have to try to convince me how shady this hobby is. I just do my best not to care or post about it anymore.
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  #8  
Old 11-23-2022, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
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Any chance you have any real proof or is that purely hearsay?
It is neither; as it is a stated speculation about a future event. If I could prove the future, well, I’d be on my private island with a bunch of models instead of with y’all.
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  #9  
Old 11-23-2022, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onlineracing View Post
Looking for opinions on CSG slabbed cards. How do they compare value wise compared to PSA and SGC? 60%? 80%? I am looking at some cards slabbed by CSG and just not familiar with them. Any help would be apricated.
Look at completed sales on ebay, you will probably get a pretty good idea that might be more factual than opinions.
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  #10  
Old 11-23-2022, 03:32 PM
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I was just being a smart butt as Greg always asks for proof. You don't have to try to convince me how shady this hobby is. I just do my best not to care or post about it anymore.
One of many annoying habits
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  #11  
Old 11-23-2022, 03:35 PM
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I collect prewar (almost all pre WWI). I would not buy a card in a CSG slab and I would have doubts about any card in a CSG slab just bc why would they go there vs SGC/PSA? I have the same opinion about Beckett; there is a 1914 CJ set all slabbed in Beckett for that hot second when Beckett bought Goodwin’s auction, but aside from those, I want no part of a prewar card in a Beckett slab.

I find it noteworthy that VCP is starting to accumulate data on CSG sales
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  #12  
Old 11-23-2022, 03:47 PM
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I can't still but help wonder why Ebay went with the least popular TPG'er under their convoluted 'authenticity' marketing disaster. Guess PSA, SGC and Beckett must have told them to go pound sand.
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  #13  
Old 11-23-2022, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
I can't still but help wonder why Ebay went with the least popular TPG'er under their convoluted 'authenticity' marketing disaster. Guess PSA, SGC and Beckett must have told them to go pound sand.
My guess is price and they got that price because they are smart over at CSG. The advertising they get is as they say priceless. I still need to add one of their early slabs to my slab collection.
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  #14  
Old 11-23-2022, 03:56 PM
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My guess is price and they got that price because they are smart over at CSG. The advertising they get is as they say priceless. I still need to add one of their early slabs to my slab collection.
+1

I would think that this was a shrewd marketing move by CSG to attempt to demonstrate that they can run with the big dogs. Or at least they are trusted enough by a major market player so much that we should all trust them too.

Sort of like how I implicitly trust Tom Brady and Steph Curry when it comes to all of my investment decisions.
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  #15  
Old 11-23-2022, 04:04 PM
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Sort of like how I implicitly trust Tom Brady and Steph Curry when it comes to all of my investment decisions.
Oh man, I got some bad news for you friend
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  #16  
Old 11-23-2022, 04:11 PM
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Let's stop kidding ourselves. CSG doesn't bring the prices PSA and SGC bring.
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  #17  
Old 11-23-2022, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bobbyw8469 View Post
Let's stop kidding ourselves. CSG doesn't bring the prices PSA and SGC bring.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that they do.

The only question is how much of a discount applies to CSG v. the competition.
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M118 (PSA calls it 1963 Baseball Magazine)
1968 American Oil left side
1971 Bazooka numbered
1971 Bazooka numbered complete panel
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  #18  
Old 11-23-2022, 05:03 PM
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They are the new kids on the block. So they have to get their name out there and they have to prove themselves to the masses.
As of now avoid them for the reasons mentioned prior in this thread. Perhaps in a few years my opinion will change.
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  #19  
Old 11-23-2022, 06:04 PM
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I only have seen some in person at the shows and I decline to buy them, modern stuff is showing up more of in these holders. The holders are firm and strong, just have not see good prices for vintage this past year!

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  #20  
Old 11-23-2022, 07:09 PM
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Thanks for the replies, I'm a prewar collector and i think it's a fair point why someone would send their prewar there as opposed to PSA or SGC.
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  #21  
Old 11-23-2022, 07:13 PM
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I have a fair amount of experience with CSG as both a buyer and a seller. I've also submitted hundreds of cards to them for grading across multiple orders. Most of what I've sent has bent 1986 Fleer basketball, 1950s baseball, and a bunch of other random modern cards.

As far as accuracy goes, they're mostly on point. My pre-grades are almost always accurate with them with very few surprises. I've had about an equal number of cards come back that I felt were overgraded and undergraded, but nothing by more than 1 grade off. The same is true for my submissions with SGC. Both SGC and CSG are far more accurate and consistent than PSA these days. I have also cracked out and crossed over dozens of cards to CSG from PSA, SGC, and BGS. They have all gotten the same grades as they had from SGC, and the only bumps I received were from PSA slabs that I cherry picked because they were undergraded (to be fair though, I probably could have sent those cards back to PSA again and gotten a bump with them). I even crossed over one of my 1986 Fleer SGC 9 Michael Jordan RCs to CSG. They also gave it a 9.

As a buyer, I love their slabs. They have the nicest looking slab on the market by a country mile. And I can usually find nice cards at bargain prices.

As a seller, they don't move very fast if listing as a buy it now on eBay. But they do sell. It just depends on the card. I sold a nice 59 Mantle mid grade a few months back for a fair price. I also sold some 52 Topps cards in CSG holders, and they hit expected hammer prices at auction. They were all mid grades. But those cards also sell for good prices raw if the scans are good, so I doubt the slabs added much value.

I think they're a great option if you're looking for slabbing your own collection. And they're also a great option for vintage cards in the sub $250 value range because grading fees are cheap, turnarounds are fast, and you'll get more accurate and consistent grades than you will at PSA. But if you're looking to grade a mid to higher end HOF RC card that's worth 4 figures or more, you're better off going with SGC for now.
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https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=46
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  #22  
Old 11-23-2022, 07:20 PM
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They very well could be more consistent than PSA and SGC, grade fewer altered cards than SGC and PSA and maybe they even grade more accurately than SGC and PSA but the market barely accepts SGC who has been around a long time.

As has been suggested looking at completed auctions on ebay...and not just 1 or 2...will give you a good idea of what the discount is.
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Old 11-23-2022, 07:59 PM
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It is neither; as it is a stated speculation about a future event. If I could prove the future, well, I’d be on my private island with a bunch of models instead of with y’all.
I'm offended that you wouldn't even at least invite me.
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Old 11-23-2022, 08:54 PM
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They very well could be more consistent than PSA and SGC, grade fewer altered cards than SGC and PSA and maybe they even grade more accurately than SGC and PSA but the market barely accepts SGC who has been around a long time.

As has been suggested looking at completed auctions on ebay...and not just 1 or 2...will give you a good idea of what the discount is.
Perhaps also worth pointing out is that the discount varies by which sub-segment of the hobby you're looking at. With modern basketball and even 1986 Fleer, CSG is pretty much on point with SGC in terms of resale pricing, both of which are behind PSA cards of the same grade. However, if you could find a 41 Playball DiMaggio CSG 8 and the same card in an SGC 8 slab, you're almost certainly going to see a significant difference in the hammer price.

That said, some cards have provenance that can change that dynamic. The 52 Topps CSG 8 Mantle is an example. I think it's public knowledge at this point that that card was in a PSA 7.5 holder before CSG ran this marketing push for it in a CSG 8 holder. I suspect that hammer price will be fairly close to a PSA 7.5 as a result, since the buyer knows with high confidence that they could probably get it back into the PSA 7.5 holder fairly easily.
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https://net54baseball.com/showthread...35#post2132535

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=46
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  #25  
Old 11-23-2022, 09:57 PM
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As I had said before, I sent 25 pre war cards to them. We'll see how they grade and look. I won't use sgc again....maybe psa...I will buy a card in any holder though ...
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Old 11-23-2022, 11:21 PM
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As long as Andy Broome is at CSG, I'd buy their cards in their newer holder. I really hate their older green label one, however. I'd still wait to submit to them until they start holdering cards in larger sizes.
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Old 11-24-2022, 12:03 AM
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With Andy Broome being in charge of the grading and their parent company being well regarded in the grading areas of other hobbies for a long time, I would have no problems buying a CSG card and I really would like to see them succeed. I've only bought a few cards graded by them, but I love the slabs (notwithstanding all the label nonsense, just the clarity of the slabs)

That said, I wouldn't slab anything with them that I was going to sell just because of the price discrepancies. And I don't really want to slab any personal collection stuff with them because I would like to see that they have some staying power before I do that. But overall, it seems like they have the tools to succeed and become a viable alternative to at least SGC over the next couple of years.
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Old 11-24-2022, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
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Perhaps also worth pointing out is that the discount varies by which sub-segment of the hobby you're looking at. With modern basketball and even 1986 Fleer, CSG is pretty much on point with SGC in terms of resale pricing, both of which are behind PSA cards of the same grade. However, if you could find a 41 Playball DiMaggio CSG 8 and the same card in an SGC 8 slab, you're almost certainly going to see a significant difference in the hammer price.

That said, some cards have provenance that can change that dynamic. The 52 Topps CSG 8 Mantle is an example. I think it's public knowledge at this point that that card was in a PSA 7.5 holder before CSG ran this marketing push for it in a CSG 8 holder. I suspect that hammer price will be fairly close to a PSA 7.5 as a result, since the buyer knows with high confidence that they could probably get it back into the PSA 7.5 holder fairly easily.
I probably should have specified that I was referring to vintage instead of suggesting it was all cards. I do not follow 80s and beyond but that is good to know that CSG is hanging in there.

As for the buyer of the 52 Mantle CSG 8 they had better know someone, or be someone, who is close to PSA if it is their intention to get the card back into a PSA 7.5. Not inferring the card is altered but once out of the holder I am certain PSA would treat it as if it had not been seen.
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Old 11-24-2022, 08:19 AM
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I have no issue with CSG graded cards. If they're cheaper then I've picked up a bargain. I can't answer the overall discount because that needs a fair bit of analysis, but I'd love to see it if anyone has that level of research.

CSG does seem like a good opportunity for bargains. I'm sure there's people out there who'll make a living by buying CSG graded cards and cross them over to PSA to profit from the difference.

But it doesn't always seem to be the case. Here's an example that I found after a few mins of looking.

56T Mantle PSA 2 White Back


56T Mantle CSG 2 White Back

I'd love to see a more exhaustive analysis.
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  #30  
Old 11-24-2022, 10:43 AM
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I am so sick of hearing which grading company is the best. What makes the grading company you like any better than the rest? I have had cards graded by many, many companies. I absolutely have not found a lot of difference. Yes, I have used PSA and SGC and CSG and GMA and others along the way. You know what? All are just as competent at their job. It seems PSA is always picked as the best. Sorry to say they are no better than the rest. It is like a cult out there. Do PSA cards bring more than other graders cards? Yes and I have no clue why. Maybe because more people have cards graded by them. That doesn't make them better. Then comes the set registry. How many people really make sets today? The price of common cards has become so stupid I can't even think of putting more sets together. Then when the set is sold as a set, the buyer breaks it up to make more money. Why the hell does anyone care about sets any more when only the high dollar cards are really collectable. Which ever grading company you choose is up to you, but thinking that any one is better than the other is nonsense. Frank

Last edited by Frank A; 11-24-2022 at 10:47 AM.
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  #31  
Old 11-24-2022, 02:31 PM
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I collect prewar (almost all pre WWI). I would not buy a card in a CSG slab and I would have doubts about any card in a CSG slab just bc why would they go there vs SGC/PSA?
Perhaps because they wanted their cards back this century? CSG has been cheaper and quicker than PSA and has not messed up my orders anywhere near as often as SGC. My last SGC order had a major card misidentified and two variations not noted on the slabs. 3/12 cards wrong.

CSG is not going away, folks. it is part of a well-capitalized, established collectibles grading business. I think the time to go with CSG grading on vintage is when many are trash-talking it. The same was true of SGC when it started up. I got most of my vintage slabbed with SGC when it was relatively cheap and easy, and it was a prudent move since the prices for SGC and PSA are much closer than before. Over time, as us old farts age out and newer collectors take over, they will do so in a multiverse of TPGs that will include CSG. I also like their holders better than SGC and BVG, and they definitely do a better job than PSA with oddball or irregularly shaped cards


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Old 11-24-2022, 06:30 PM
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I am so sick of hearing which grading company is the best. What makes the grading company you like any better than the rest? I have had cards graded by many, many companies. I absolutely have not found a lot of difference. Yes, I have used PSA and SGC and CSG and GMA and others along the way. You know what? All are just as competent at their job. It seems PSA is always picked as the best. Sorry to say they are no better than the rest. It is like a cult out there. Do PSA cards bring more than other graders cards? Yes and I have no clue why. Maybe because more people have cards graded by them. That doesn't make them better. Then comes the set registry. How many people really make sets today? The price of common cards has become so stupid I can't even think of putting more sets together. Then when the set is sold as a set, the buyer breaks it up to make more money. Why the hell does anyone care about sets any more when only the high dollar cards are really collectable. Which ever grading company you choose is up to you, but thinking that any one is better than the other is nonsense. Frank
Huh? Maybe I read this thread with zero reading comprehension but I do not recall anyone writing that PSA was the best or even focusing on who is best. That was not the point of the thread. Best is a personal choice. Best if you are selling? Best if you are buying? Best if you are submitting altered cards? Best appearance in the holder? Best for secured holders.

I will say two things...they are all flawed some more than others but when favors are not being done, they do not all do the same job. There are grading staffs that clearly are better and more experienced than others.
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Old 11-25-2022, 05:45 AM
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I probably should have specified that I was referring to vintage instead of suggesting it was all cards. I do not follow 80s and beyond but that is good to know that CSG is hanging in there.

As for the buyer of the 52 Mantle CSG 8 they had better know someone, or be someone, who is close to PSA if it is their intention to get the card back into a PSA 7.5. Not inferring the card is altered but once out of the holder I am certain PSA would treat it as if it had not been seen.

I think that's true normally. But they know exactly which card this is and what they graded it previously. With Nat on his kick about cards receiving the same when resubmitted, I would think there would be significant pressure to put it back in a 7.5 holder just to avoid the hobby blowback of people posting before vs after pics and revealing that PSA graders have no pants.

If they do grade it lower, it would probably be because they want to make a statement about CSG and want to make an example out of someone by pretending that CSG "damaged" the card when cracking it out. That way, they could damage their reputation and lessen the number of PSA crack outs finding their way into CSG slabs.
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  #34  
Old 11-25-2022, 06:20 AM
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The ugliest holders in the hobby sorry .resale sucks
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Old 11-25-2022, 07:18 AM
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Avoid at all costs.
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Old 11-25-2022, 09:15 AM
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I think that's true normally. But they know exactly which card this is and what they graded it previously. With Nat on his kick about cards receiving the same when resubmitted, I would think there would be significant pressure to put it back in a 7.5 holder just to avoid the hobby blowback of people posting before vs after pics and revealing that PSA graders have no pants.

If they do grade it lower, it would probably be because they want to make a statement about CSG and want to make an example out of someone by pretending that CSG "damaged" the card when cracking it out. That way, they could damage their reputation and lessen the number of PSA crack outs finding their way into CSG slabs.
I know nothing about the Mantle card in question...no idea when it was originally graded by PSA and who submitted it, etc. I hear what you are saying but I would not want to buy any card, that had once resided in a PSA holder, with the expectation upon owing it that it would just walk back into the same PSA holder it had previously been in.

Nat might want to control the grades of previously submitted cards but there is also a risk they decide this time, the card is altered. Not suggesting the Mantle is. It does not appear to be messed with but it is a 52 Mantle.

Once a card is out of the PSA holder the worthless "guarantee" is long gone but so is the guarantee of the grade.
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Old 11-25-2022, 01:13 PM
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Something else I almost forgot about when I submitted cards to CSG. I had sent in about a dozen or so 1952 Topps cards in my first submission with them, and they returned a few of them as "service not available". I'm not sure why though, because they graded the others. They also falsely flagged one as being trimmed. The rest received accurate grades. One was over graded.
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I'm a data scientist who works on problems that are very similar to the problem of "AI" card grading. Here are some links to some of my thoughts on the topic.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...35#post2132535

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=46
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Old 11-25-2022, 01:51 PM
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Something else I almost forgot about when I submitted cards to CSG. I had sent in about a dozen or so 1952 Topps cards in my first submission with them, and they returned a few of them as "service not available". I'm not sure why though, because they graded the others. They also falsely flagged one as being trimmed. The rest received accurate grades. One was over graded.
I think the "service not available", accompanied with a refund, is for cards that measure too large or too small but have factory cuts. At least that is what used to be the case.

I had done a small submission when they first started grading and felt the grades were far too tight and two rejected...1 for recoloring and 1 for trimming. In both of those cares the cards had been broken out of SGC holders and were 100% not altered. Both were later submitted to PSA and got graded accurately.
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Old 11-26-2022, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank A View Post
I am so sick of hearing which grading company is the best. What makes the grading company you like any better than the rest? I have had cards graded by many, many companies. I absolutely have not found a lot of difference. Yes, I have used PSA and SGC and CSG and GMA and others along the way. You know what? All are just as competent at their job. It seems PSA is always picked as the best. Sorry to say they are no better than the rest. It is like a cult out there. Do PSA cards bring more than other graders cards? Yes and I have no clue why. Maybe because more people have cards graded by them. That doesn't make them better. Then comes the set registry. How many people really make sets today? The price of common cards has become so stupid I can't even think of putting more sets together. Then when the set is sold as a set, the buyer breaks it up to make more money. Why the hell does anyone care about sets any more when only the high dollar cards are really collectable. Which ever grading company you choose is up to you, but thinking that any one is better than the other is nonsense. Frank
Different services are better for different cards. Gonna go with PSA for a mainstream Topps card. Not so much for a card that needs specialized holdering. SGC is good for that but not for a thinner card because they tend to slip the gasket. And so on.
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