Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs

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Posted By: Romeo

What is everyone's thoughts on these 2 Mantle auto's

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Posted By: Dave Haas

Top one real, bottom one fake.

DH

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Posted By: peter ullman

I'm no expert...but I have a few genuine mantle sigs...and they look ok to me.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree with Dave- top one looks good, bottom one both sigs look bad.

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Posted By: JohnnyH

I have nothing to do with auto's but they both look suspect, especially the top one, unless Mantle was in his ending days, you can see that it was written slowly, especially the last half of Mantle, which would sugest someone is trying hard to make it look correct. The top is not natural flowing at all and the bottom seems crammed. Just my unexpert opionion.

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Posted By: john

no and no

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Posted By: RangerGiant

The first one is definately bad. One of the the 4 or 5 different common Mantle fakes that you see. Actually this particular card shows up with this fake often.

The second actually looks good.

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Posted By: Fred Y

Top Mantle good--Joe & Mantle bad!

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Posted By: Eric

i agree with ranger...

Top is definitely fake... the bottom one is real.

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Posted By: Jimmy

the top one is a real nice autograph, the bottom one has some?marks and agree with others that it just does not look good

Jimmy

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Posted By: Mark L

So, is that a consensus, then?

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Posted By: barrysloate

There is no consensus- everyone disagrees.

And mine was just a gut feeling- I am not an autograph guy.

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Posted By: Jason

They both look suspect to me. The top one is shaky and the M's on the bottom one look odd to me.

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Posted By: Jimmy

you really have to go to JSA or PSA, we can only give your our opinions

but from my experience Mickey Mantle photos are always suspect, the other one looks nice but it just could be a very nice auto pen example(authentication is very important)


Jimmy

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Posted By: RangerGiant

Trust me. The top one is bad. Bet the farm kinda sure. Bottom one I am 90% sure it is good, would need to see in person.

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Posted By: JohnnyH

JSA or PSA is just another opinion with a little more authority and something to encase it in. They have no proof, no one does, unless you witness the auto or trust the person who says they saw it signed it's just an educated guess. Maybe Mantle needed a drink and had the shakes, maybe he was in a rush and was sloppy, maybe someone did a poor fake. This is why I don't and will never collect autographs, it's all speculation.

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Posted By: Dave Haas

I haven't seen any of Mantle's autos where the capital M's connect with the "i" or "a". He draws the "M" seperately and then stars new with the i's and a's.
But he could of been drinking that day or whatever.

DH

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Same items different thread. Both stink. They are authenticated by global and have been selling both on ebay and cc.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

"you really have to go to JSA or PSA, we can only give you our opinions"

And JSA or PSA will give their opinions. Nothing more.

"This is why I don't and will never collect autographs, it's all speculation."

What are PSA or SGC card grades? The inspired word of God?

(It's not as if altered cards are never slabbed and graded.)

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Not sure how anyone can ever know without getting it in person or having rock solid provenance. COA's are just opinions. On guys like Mickey Mantle and Ted Williams I just assume they're all fake.

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Posted By: JohnnyH

David, atleast SGC seems to take the time to look at both sides of a card and tilt it in the light. If PSA can barely tell the difference between a 5 or an 8 I sure would hate to think they can tell if an auto is real or fake. Yes trimmed and altered cards do get by them sometimes but atleast the card is real, even a fake gets through once or twice but not very often. I don't think I could print up some cards and get them past a grader as real but I would bet big money I could forge a lot of autos and get them to pass and that is not good.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Forge a vintage autograph, Johnny--a Ruth, a Gehrig, a Walter Johnson--and see if you can get it past Jodi Birkholm.

Or me.

(Or any one of scores of knowlegible collectors.)

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Posted By: JohnnyH

David that is quite a challenge, but with some 75 year old ink and paper it could probably be done. The source of the auto would need to match the age it was from, or atleast that would be my thinking, that would be very tough but not impossible. It might have to sit in the sun for awhile to fade out. Whatever the DNA tests used they would match up to age, if they even use that. If I come accross an old baseball maybe I'll give it a shot !!!!! No disrespect to any authenticators out there, but any system can be beat, even the toughest as you just mentioned.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

We authenticators do get hung up on mitochondrial DNA every now and then, but this is a problem we're hoping to correct by 2010. Hopefully, these technological advancements will get us one step closer to making this an exact science.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

You do not have to send this to Jodie or Psa/ . The items that you showed are not authentic. I will bet anyone on this site $1000 that they are garbage. It does not take an expert to see garbage. Jodie,Psa, Jsa, will not take the bet.

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Posted By: Eric B

I would love to see someone take the challenge. The paper part is easy - just pick up any old magazine from the 1920's or 1930's. Even National Geographic will do. Then find an old pen and rehydrate the ink I suppose. Then pick a player.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

And watch the ink feather.

(If you don't know what that means, don't bother becoming a forger.)

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Posted By: Fred C

First one YES, the second one NO.... wait, maybe the second one is YES but then again the first one could be a NO. Oh crap, I think the only thing to do is send them to Jim Spence. Jim has the most trusted dart board in the industry. Seriously, I'm not sure how anybody could deem either one of those REAL or FAKE without being there to witness the signature being written. Some probably think the second one is fake because it looks like the Joe D and Mantle sigs are with the same pen. I have a few signatures that people say are fake but I got the sigs in person. I have sold a lot of my personally obtained autographs but I can definitely recall some of the signatures from the same player being a little different. Maybe the player was in a hurry one day, maybe he was holding his glove under an arm pit while he signed one card and his hand/arm was free when he signed another. Too many variables. That's why I only purchase signatures on checks, contracts or documents these days. Even then you can't be 100% certain it isn't a secretarial signature.

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Posted By: JohnnyH

We probably shouldn't be encouraging anyone to become a forger, or even try to pass the test,especially in this economy. But even if one didn't pass the test, how tough would it be to just forge the COA. I'm sure that all the authenticators do their best and really know what they are doing, and sometimes mistakes happen as we are all human. There just seems to be to many loop holes that they have no control over.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

"Whatever the DNA tests used they would match up to age,"

Can you please explain this statement. I have no idea what you mean.

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Sorry to barge in on someone else's request but I was hoping you might give me your opinions on 4 11*14's I have in my collection. Below are scans of all of the signatures. Thanks!

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For the premier online souce of information on baseball-related cigarette packs, visithttp://www.baseballandtobacco.com

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Posted By: JohnnyH

Nice photos Jon, if you saw Mickey sign those they are real, if not it's anybodys guess.
David, what I meant is I would hope if they are using a term like DNA they are using some sort of carbon dating or sceintific process to authenticate other than just their opionion, but I don't know,maybe someone can enlighten us.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

You might hope that, Johnny.

But you'd be wrong.

The "DNA" is placed on the item by PSA, and only serves to identify the item as being the one they looked at.

And carbon dating is useless for anything less than 500 years old or so.

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Posted By: JohnnyH

Thanks for the info David, shows what I know. But using DNA as a fancy title seems a little misleading IMO. I thought maybe they had some dye or fancy lights, something hi tech right out of Star Trek or the FBI labs.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

there is a process whereby ink can be dated to some degree. However it is expensive for an amateur to have it done and does need the actual ink on the item to be scraped off.
==

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: john

Conducting ink analysis on an item is available. The tops in the country is Dr. Al Lyter. He's based in Raleigh, N.C. You're looking at a minimum of 1500 for starters. The specific ink can be identified and with ball point ink, the specific year can be identified (if post 1971). He can tell you if the ink was produced commercially and by what manufacturer and what era. He's pretty amazing. If the ink is early, let's say pre 1900, chances are its not a commercial ink. He then can tell you if the ink is carbon based, iron based, etc. There is an additional test where he determines if the ink has been placed on the item in the last 10 years. The process is costly and can be time consuming(he usually is 6-8 weeks out for new work). If you're analyzing a high value item, the process is worth it and then some. Google his name, you'll find his site and many news stories on his work. The ink doesn't have to be "scraped off" as Richard stated. It can be removed with a small guage needle, puncturing the item at the end of the signature, maybe where the "t" crosses. He usually can get the ink sample where you'd never notice

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Posted By: David Atkatz

I quote from Lyter's webpage:

"Normally these samples are removed with a hypodermic needle sized hole punch and do not effect the legibility of the material. The hole punch is approximately the size of a typewriter period and a full range of tests require about 30. In a normal sized signature there is over 4 inches of written line and 30 "microplugs" is approximately 5/8 inch. Because the samples are normally taken from the entire area of writing the legibility of the writing and the ability to perform additional tests is maintained"

He removes about 15% of the signature. Not exactly un-noticible.

And for what?

He can only judge when the ink was put down by comparison with another sample, of the same materials, whose dating is known. So, at best, he can determine if writing has been added to an existing document. Important in determining the legality of various contracts, wills, codicils, etc., but not very useful in the autograph field.

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Posted By: john

David-i have used his services and have never noticed where the sample came from. In no way has 15% been removed. probably his legal disclaimer to CYA. He passes no opinion on autographs. I'll tell you some specific examples of how his testing helped me:

1. Was offered dozens of Mantle signed Bobby Brown baseballs. Excellent provenance. Sampled some and PSA passed them. Tested the ink. Came back as ballpoint ink from 2002. Mantle dead in 1995.

2. Christy Mathewson signed photo. It came from a very reputable dealer. Ink analysis came back as Parker ink produced post 1960. The Mathewson sig. had all the politically correct coa's.

3. Babe Ruth signed bat from the December Mastro auction. I paid 105,000 for the Jimmy Donahughe Babe Ruth signed game bat. It was signed by Ruth and dated Christmas Day 1924. Spence had stated in his LOA that the bats inscription was traced over. As the buyer, I wanted to know if the ink was traced over by Ruth or at a later date. I had the pleasure of meeting the family of Jimmy Donahughe at the December live event. They were of the opinion that the signature would not have been traced by their father. Other faded signed items in the collection had not been traced. The ink analysis discovered that the two inks, both the lighter inscription and the bolder overlaying "traced" signature, were the same inks. 1920's Watermans ink. This told me that Ruth signed the bat, didn't like the light inscription and went back over it with the same pen, probably reloaded with ink. had this anlysis been reported with the auction, I imagine my 105,000 winning bid would have jumped to 150,000 at least. The word "traced" hurt the sale. I love the bat!

The above examples are just a small sampling of Dr. Lyters work and how his expertise has told me the true story.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

About 16-18 years ago a small group of collector/dealers who were battling a well known forger named Ron Dross had ink analysis done on some of his work.
I don't recall the name of the person who did it.
All of the items came back with post 1970 ink and the signatures were all of guys who died 1950'sor earlier. All were Dross forgeries.
==


I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: David Atkatz

I stand corrected, John. You certainly got your money's worth in the cases you mention.
(Except, perhaps, the Mantle balls. )

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Posted By: Fred C

Ok, this isn't really breaking my new years resolution because it applies to PSAs "card grading", not autograph authentication...

As for PSAs ability to provide an opinion that people can whole heartedly rely on, DNA means DOES NOT APPLY

As for PSA actually dating the ink, DNA means DOES NOT APPLY

As for PSA actually providing a net positive contribution to the hobby, DNA means DOES NOT APPLY

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Posted By: JohnnyH

Fred you are hillarious, great stuff !! John, Richard, and David great imput. I think it would be a good investment for JSA and PSA to get someone on board or contract out someone for ink dating, atleast on the rare and high volume items. Then the DNA could actually apply.

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Posted By: Andrew S.

I am a forensic chemist and I can tell you from experience that there is no way to pin ink down to an exact year. I've seen court cases where multiple ink examiners not only disagreed on the year a document was written or signed....they couldn't even agree on the decade. It is an imprecise undertaking and akin to using a divining rod. If you use two different laboratories, they will usually come up with two very different results/opinions. But there is money to be made, just like with any other third party enterprise and so......

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

top bad - bottom good

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Andrew - that is very interesting information. I was always under the assumption that this type of science was accurate.
Could you possibly point out the exact cases you refer to? Is that info on the internet?
I guess the National Academy of Sciences is correct. They recently published a study which surveyed the field of forensic science (all forensic science) and found it to be grossly deficient. (especially those that rely on expert interpretation). This included analyses of hair, bite marks, fibers, documents, tools, firearms, shoe impressions, tire tracks, blood spatters and handwriting.
==

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: leon

Forensic science sounds a little like autograph authentication, doesn't it?

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think I would like to take a course in forensic science, with a speciality in bite marks.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Barry, your Dracula personna has emerged .
==

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Leon - the Natl. Academy did mention handwriting in their report...
==

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Jack

Richard - As you are one of the experts in this area, I am interested in your opinion on these Mantle autos. What do you think?

Jack