NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on Ebay
Babe Ruth Cards
t206 Ty Cobb
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Baseball T201-T217
Baseball E90-E107
T205 Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Goudey Cards
Vintage Baseball Memorabilia
Baseball Exhibit Cards
Baseball Strip Cards
Baseball Baking Cards
Sporting News Cards
Play Ball Cards
Joe DiMaggio Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Bowman 1951-1955
Football Cards

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-23-2022, 12:12 AM
Schwertfeger1007 Schwertfeger1007 is offline
Brian Schwertfeger
member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Arizona
Posts: 65
Default Rank your top 19th Century Baseball Players

I'm working on a N172 HOF run and it got me thinking....

Who your top 5-10 players of that era?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-23-2022, 12:58 AM
G1911 G1911 is online now
Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 2,383
Default

1. Cy Young
2. Cap Anson
3. Kid Nichols
4. Dan Brouthers
5. Tim Keefe
6. Ed Delahanty

Off the top of my head without checking baseball reference again, based on careers in the major leagues. Spaulding, Creighton and others may be more deserving. Added a 6th since Young spans two full decades, only one of which is the 19th century. If only his career through 1899 counts he probably doesn’t merit inclusion.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-23-2022, 06:23 AM
skelly423 skelly423 is offline
Se@n Kel.ly
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 323
Default

Very off the top of my head ranking, but I’d go with.

1. Cap Anson
2. King Kelly
3. Ed Delahanty
4. Tim Keefe
5. Pud Galvin


I’m cutting of Cy Young because his career straddled the decades, though the first half his career is probably still good enough to make the list on merit. And as much as I’d love to see it, I just couldn’t find room for Old Hoss Radbourn
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-23-2022, 07:25 AM
darwinbulldog's Avatar
darwinbulldog darwinbulldog is offline
Glenn
Glen.n Sch.ey-d
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 2,791
Default

My approach was just to look only at stats compiled prior to the 1901 season. That yields this list:

1. Kid Nichols
2. Cy Young
3. John Clarkson
4. Tim Keefe
5. Dan Brouthers
6. Roger Connor
7. Cap Anson
8. Jim McCormick
9. Hoss Radbourn
10. Bob Caruthers
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-23-2022, 09:04 AM
mouschi's Avatar
mouschi mouschi is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,020
Default

Without looking at stats, here are my favorites at least! 2-5 can be interchangeable, but the King will always be the King!

King Kelly
Cap Anson
Cy Young
Roger Connor
Dan Brouthers
__________________
Tanner Jones - Author, Confessions of a Baseball Card Addict - Available on Amazon
www.TanManBaseballFan.com
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-23-2022, 09:12 AM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
j'a'y mi.ll.e.r
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 4,830
Default

1. Buck Ewing
2. Ed Delahanty
3. George Wright
4. Sam Thompson
5. King Kelly

In the 19th century the catcher was the most important player on the field and Ewing was the best catcher of the period. In the 1920s Connie Mack called Ewing the greatest player he had ever seen.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-23-2022, 09:19 AM
mrreality68's Avatar
mrreality68 mrreality68 is offline
Jeffrey Kuhr
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,706
Default

Here is my list


1. Kid Nichols
2. Cy Young
3. Cap Anson
4. Tim Keefe
5. John Clarkson
__________________
Thanks all

Jeff Kuhr

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144250058@N05/

Kuhr@mac.com

Looking for
1920 Heading Home Ruth Cards
1921/22 Ruth Throwing Pose "Babe" and George
1921 Frederick Foto Ruth
1917 Boston Store Babe Ruth
Joe Jackson Cards 1916 Advertising Backs
1910 Old Mills Joe Jackson
1914 Boston Garter Joe Jackson
other Joe Jackson playing day cards
1908 Rose Postcard Ty Cobb
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-23-2022, 09:59 AM
robertsmithnocure robertsmithnocure is offline
R0b Sm!th
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 195
Default

1. Cy Young
2. Ed Delahanty
3. Buck Ewing
4. Kid Nichols
5. Cap Anson
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-23-2022, 10:02 AM
riggs336's Avatar
riggs336 riggs336 is offline
�tis J�hns�n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Austin
Posts: 442
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
1. Buck Ewing
2. Ed Delahanty
3. George Wright
4. Sam Thompson
5. King Kelly

In the 19th century the catcher was the most important player on the field and Ewing was the best catcher of the period. In the 1920s Connie Mack called Ewing the greatest player he had ever seen.
The 1919 Reach guide on Buck Ewing: "the greatest player of all time from the standpoint of supreme excellence in all departments."
__________________
Baseball cards will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no baseball cards.--The Fabulous Furry Freak Bros. (paraphrased)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-23-2022, 10:45 AM
mrreality68's Avatar
mrreality68 mrreality68 is offline
Jeffrey Kuhr
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,706
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by riggs336 View Post
The 1919 Reach guide on Buck Ewing: "the greatest player of all time from the standpoint of supreme excellence in all departments."
very good point. Besides not sure how i did not have him in the top 5. But many great players hard to narrow it down
__________________
Thanks all

Jeff Kuhr

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144250058@N05/

Kuhr@mac.com

Looking for
1920 Heading Home Ruth Cards
1921/22 Ruth Throwing Pose "Babe" and George
1921 Frederick Foto Ruth
1917 Boston Store Babe Ruth
Joe Jackson Cards 1916 Advertising Backs
1910 Old Mills Joe Jackson
1914 Boston Garter Joe Jackson
other Joe Jackson playing day cards
1908 Rose Postcard Ty Cobb
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-23-2022, 11:23 AM
cgjackson222's Avatar
cgjackson222 cgjackson222 is offline
Charles Jackson
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Virginia
Posts: 299
Default

1) Cap Anson
2) Kid Nichols
3) Dan Brouthers
4) John Clarkson
5) Tim Keefe
6) Roger Connor
7) Ed Delahanty
8) Cy Young (many of his best years were in the 20th century)
9) Pud Galvin
10) Jim McCormick

Honorable Mention: "Sliding Billy" Hamiltion, King Kelly, Old Hoss Radbourn, George Davis, Willie Keeler, Hugh Duffy, Jack Glasscock, Buck Ewing)

Last edited by cgjackson222; 05-23-2022 at 02:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-23-2022, 12:10 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 9,550
Default Top 19th Century ballplayers









Ed Delehanty....my favorite 19th Century ballplayer.

------



SABR rates Glasscock as the best shortstop of the 19th century....and, I agree.








And,

Tim Keefe and Sam Thompson



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Last edited by tedzan; 05-27-2022 at 09:21 AM. Reason: Modified scan.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-23-2022, 12:37 PM
jingram058's Avatar
jingram058 jingram058 is offline
J@mes In.gram
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 838
Default

Some honorable mentions that have not been listed yet (Maybe not top 5 players, or even players at all, but I like them, and if you're going to run n172 or 19th Century, you must have them):

George Gore
Bobby Lowe
John Montgomery Ward
Ned Williamson
Billy Sunday
"Big Jim" Mutrie (Manager)
Chris Von Der Ahe (Owner)
"Kid" Gleason (20th Century Crossover)
"Connie" Mack (20th Century Crossover)
Charles Comiskey (Crossover)
Clark Griffith (Crossover)
__________________
James Ingram

Successful net54 purchases from/trades with:
Tere1071, Bocabirdman, 8thEastVB, GoldenAge50s, IronHorse2130, Kris19, G1911, dacubfan, sflayank, Smanzari

I'm not a card investment broker - raw cards only. They call me "The Cooler"
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-23-2022, 12:43 PM
Touch'EmAll Touch'EmAll is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 899
Default

As a kid reading up and looking at stats, I was (still am) amazed at the 60 win season for Charles "Old Hoss" Radbourn. Like Wow !
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-23-2022, 03:49 PM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,230
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll View Post
As a kid reading up and looking at stats, I was (still am) amazed at the 60 win season for Charles "Old Hoss" Radbourn. Like Wow !
It's now 59 wins Ole Hoss got credit for one he didn't deserve. I liked it better when it was 60. And when Dutch Leonard's ERA was 1.01. And Hugh Duffy's average was .438. And Hack Wilson's RBI total was 190. And Ty Cobb's average was .367.

I *highly* recommend the book "59 in '84" about that season. Baseball history of the highest order.

Fun fact: Radbourn is the first person know to have been photographed while flipping the bird to the camera. And he did it at least twice.

Last edited by Tabe; 05-23-2022 at 03:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-23-2022, 04:02 PM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,230
Default

Cap Anson and Kid Nichols, for sure.

Perhaps Billy Hamilton and maybe Hugh Duffy?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-23-2022, 06:25 PM
michael3322 michael3322 is offline
Michael
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 170
Default

Let's not forget Dave Orr, who probably belongs in the "Would have been inducted into the HOF if not for health issues..."

"Orr was one of the best hitters in baseball during his major league career. He never hit below .305 for a full season, and his career batting average of .342 is the eleventh highest in major league history, and the third highest for a right-handed hitter. He was also regarded as the hardest-hitting batsman of his era. His 31 triples in 1886 was a major league record that stood for 25 years and has only been exceeded once. He was also the first batter to compile more than 300 total bases in a season.

Despite his weight (250 pounds at 5 ft 11 in (1.80 m)), Orr was also a solid defensive performer with a .973 fielding average. He twice led the American Association in range factor by a first baseman. In 1886, he led the Association's first basemen in putouts and fielding percentage, and in 1889 he led in assists with 61. Orr hit .371 in 1890, but his career was cut short by a stroke suffered during an exhibition game at the end of the 1890 season."


Last edited by michael3322; 05-23-2022 at 06:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-23-2022, 06:37 PM
felada felada is offline
D@vid Fel@
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 310
Default

Certainly there were players before the old judge set that have to make the list. What about wright creighton Cummings or spalding
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-24-2022, 09:47 AM
Yoda Yoda is offline
Joh.n Spen.cer
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,301
Default

Non-American: Tip O'Neil.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-24-2022, 03:52 PM
Fred's Avatar
Fred Fred is offline
Fred
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,255
Default

Sticking with just 19th-C stats

Anson
Delahanty
Clarkson
Nichols
Hamilton
__________________
fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something
cool you're looking to find a new home for.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-24-2022, 05:08 PM
esd10 esd10 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: baltimore oh
Posts: 779
Default

Bid mcphee
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-24-2022, 07:22 PM
Rare Stuff Rare Stuff is offline
member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Florida
Posts: 14
Default

Cap Anson
King Kelly
Dan Brouthers
Roger Conner
Tim Keefe
Ed Delahanty
Jack Glasscock
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-24-2022, 07:39 PM
jingram058's Avatar
jingram058 jingram058 is offline
J@mes In.gram
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 838
Default

Several listed Buck Ewing earlier, but now he has fallen off the charts. How come?
__________________
James Ingram

Successful net54 purchases from/trades with:
Tere1071, Bocabirdman, 8thEastVB, GoldenAge50s, IronHorse2130, Kris19, G1911, dacubfan, sflayank, Smanzari

I'm not a card investment broker - raw cards only. They call me "The Cooler"
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-24-2022, 08:51 PM
molenick's Avatar
molenick molenick is offline
Michael
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 444
Default

I think the reason for the disparity is that Ewing’s statistics do not jump off the page the way some others do. So, ranking him highly depends a lot on taking into consideration the opinion of his peers and on the difficulty and importance of his position. He has essentially the same statistics as Kelly, but I put Ewing in my top 10 because he was the best catcher of the 19th century and I do not put Kelly in because as an outfielder, I am considering mainly his offensive statistics, and in my view they don’t measure up to the players I included.

(The other reason is that this is just people’s opinions, so there is never going to be a list that everyone agrees on.)

Here is my alphabetical list. I would pick Nichols as the best pitcher and Brouthers as the most dominant batter (although in terms of overall stats, Anson ranks higher).

Anson
Brouthers
Clarkson
Connor
Delahanty
Ewing
Hamilton
Keefe
Nichols
Radbourne

Davis and Young were pretty equally split between the 19th and 20th century, so I did not include them.

Kelly is an interesting case. Statistically, he is in the next tier of players in my mind. But in terms of popularity, he may be the top player.
__________________
My avatar is a drawing of a 1958 Topps Hank Aaron by my daughter. If you are interested in one in a similar style based on the card of your choice, details can be found by searching threads with the title phrase Custom Baseball Card Artwork or by PMing me.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-25-2022, 03:02 PM
molenick's Avatar
molenick molenick is offline
Michael
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 444
Default

I am adding my pre-N172 list of ten players. It is a little less researched and I may have left off an obvious choice.

Barnes
Bond
Creighton
Cummings
Mathews
McBride
McVey
Pike
Spalding
Wright (George)
__________________
My avatar is a drawing of a 1958 Topps Hank Aaron by my daughter. If you are interested in one in a similar style based on the card of your choice, details can be found by searching threads with the title phrase Custom Baseball Card Artwork or by PMing me.

Last edited by molenick; 05-25-2022 at 03:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-25-2022, 03:09 PM
BobbyStrawberry's Avatar
BobbyStrawberry BobbyStrawberry is offline
♏︎ªt✝️ℌǝɯ ♓︎ºµℊℌ
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 770
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by molenick View Post
I am adding my pre-N172 list of ten players. It is a little less researched and I may have left off an obvious choice.

Barnes
Bond
Creighton
Cummings
Mathews
McBride
McVey
Pike
Spalding
Wright (George)
It's nice to see Creighton mentioned!
__________________
_
⚾️ Successful transactions with: Natswin2019, ParachromBleu, Cmount76, theuclakid, tiger8mush, shammus, jcmtiger, oldjudge, coolshemp, joejo20, Blunder19, ibechillin33, t206kid, helfrich91, Dashcol, philliesfan, alaskapaul3, Natedog, Kris19, frankbmd, tonyo, Baseball Rarities, Thromdog, T2069bk
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-25-2022, 07:06 PM
Keith H. Thompson Keith H. Thompson is offline
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 46
Default

My thanks to Jay M and Ted Z for mentioning Sam Thompson whenever the stalwarts of the 19th century are discussed. Sam got a late start (age 25) before he played professionally, and his total stats (except for RBI and HR) do not stand out. The first Veterans Committee, charged in 1945 with selecting deserving 19th century players, passed him over.
yet, consider the following stats compiled by Roy Kerr, author of the book, "Big Sam Thompson, Baseball's Greatest Clutch Hitter."

1. He was the first man to gain the 200 hit plateau in a season (in only 127 games) and would twice repeat this feat.
2. His RBI per-game ratio, 0.093 is he highest of any man who ever played the game. (although he is a virtual tie with Greenberg and Gehrig)
3. His RBI+Runs Scored per-game ratio is by far the highest of any man who ever played the game.
4. Thompson's 126 career home runs rank second among hitters of his era, and many of his four baggers can vie with those hit by his contemporary, Dan Brouthers, for the title of the longest hit in the 19th century.
5. On the base paths ... he ran well and aggressively, averaging 25 steals per season from 1889 to 1895.
6. ... he compiled the highest fielding average of any outfielder who played 1000 games and whose career concluded before the 20th century.
7. His 283 outfield assists rank twelfth all time, and among all outfielders who played more than 1000 games, his assist-per-game ratio (1/4.9 games) is the highest in history.
8. Thompson, in 1895 either became the first of four men to record three outfielder-to-catcher assists in a game, or the only man ever to record four in a game.

I am a mathematical statistician by profession and understand that statistics can be cherry-picked to deceive and confuse, but ...
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-25-2022, 07:14 PM
Keith H. Thompson Keith H. Thompson is offline
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 46
Default

My thanks to Jay M and Ted Z for mentioning Sam Thompson whenever the stalwarts of the 19th century are discussed. Sam got a late start (age 25) before he played professionally, and his total stats (except for RBI and HR) do not stand out. The first Veterans Committee, charged in 1945 with selecting deserving 19th century players, passed him over.
yet, consider the following stats compiled by Roy Kerr, author of the book, "Big Sam Thompson, Baseball's Greatest Clutch Hitter."

1. He was the first man to gain the 200 hit plateau in a season (in only 127 games) and would twice repeat this feat.
2. His RBI per-game ratio, 0.093 is he highest of any man who ever played the game. (although he is a virtual tie with Greenberg and Gehrig)
3. His RBI+Runs Scored per-game ratio is by far the highest of any man who ever played the game.
4. Thompson's 126 career home runs rank second among hitters of his era, and many of his four baggers can vie with those hit by his contemporary, Dan Brouthers, for the title of the longest hit in the 19th century.
5. On the base paths ... he ran well and aggressively, averaging 25 steals per season from 1889 to 1895.
6. ... he compiled the highest fielding average of any outfielder who played 1000 games and whose career concluded before the 20th century.
7. His 283 outfield assists rank twelfth all time, and among all outfielders who played more than 1000 games, his assist-per-game ratio (1/4.9 games) is the highest in history.
8. Thompson, in 1895 either became the first of four men to record three outfielder-to-catcher assists in a game, or the only man ever to record four in a game.

I am a mathematical statistician by profession and understand that statistics can be cherry-picked to deceive and confuse, but ...
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-25-2022, 07:58 PM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
j'a'y mi.ll.e.r
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 4,830
Default

Great summary, Keith. Sam is one of the most underrated players in history.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-26-2022, 09:04 AM
PhillyFan1883's Avatar
PhillyFan1883 PhillyFan1883 is offline
Connor
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 166
Default

1. Big Ed Delahanty
2. Buck Ewing
3. Roger Connor
4. Sam Thompson
5. Billy Hamilton

UN- honorable mention Cap Anson.
Honorable mention George Wright.

BTW if Ed Delahanty is not on your list go look at his stat line and do some research of his dominance at the plate.

https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/july...home-run-game/
__________________
Successful BST Transactions w/ — ezez420, Old Judge , chris counts, Moonlight Graham, Marckus99
Brian Van Horn, qed2190, danf19, BuzzD, ThomasL, nolemmings, Andretti83, soxinseven and many more.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 05-26-2022, 12:07 PM
Keith H. Thompson Keith H. Thompson is offline
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 46
Default

The previous poster is correct in his reference to Ed Delahanty. The student of 19th century stars is referred to the book -- "July 2, 1903" by Mike Sowell for a superb account of the game, both anecdotal and factual. And to return to the thread's purpose I would rank both Delahanty and Brouthers ahead of Thompson. The Philadelphia outfield of 1894, Delahanty in left, Hamilton in center and Thompson in right is often mentioned in baseball lore as having the highest consensus batting average in history.
Mike Sowell is quoted with reference to Thompson

1. Sam Thompson, a menacing sight at six-foot-two and two hundred pounds ... gunned down runners from right field with the game's most powerful throwing arm.
2. He (Delahanty) called his his powerful throwing arm his "whip" and guarded it carefully, lobbing the ball back to the infield except when it was necessary to cut down a runner or hold a man on base. At such times, he would fire the ball with amazing accuracy and with a speed unmatched by any other outfielder except his teammate, Big Sam Thompson.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-26-2022, 12:20 PM
nat's Avatar
nat nat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 854
Default

He doesn't actually make a top 5-10 list, but I'd like John McGraw to get a some attention. Little Napoleon was actually one hell of a ball player. 334 career batting average, 466 career on base percentage. Not much power, but excellent at setting the table. Sort of the 19th century Wade Boggs.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-26-2022, 12:51 PM
darwinbulldog's Avatar
darwinbulldog darwinbulldog is offline
Glenn
Glen.n Sch.ey-d
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 2,791
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nat View Post
He doesn't actually make a top 5-10 list, but I'd like John McGraw to get a some attention. Little Napoleon was actually one hell of a ball player. 334 career batting average, 466 career on base percentage. Not much power, but excellent at setting the table. Sort of the 19th century Wade Boggs.
Absolutely. McGraw and Spalding were both good enough to merit induction as players.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-26-2022, 01:16 PM
molenick's Avatar
molenick molenick is offline
Michael
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 444
Default

Adding another 15 alphabetically to make 25 from me. I think between my first 10 and next 15 all positions are covered.

Burkett (who I think is the best player not mentioned so far)
Caruthers
Duffy
Galvin
Glasscock
Kelly
McCormick
McGraw
McPhee
O’Rourke
Rusie
Thompson
Ward
Welch
D. White

Beckley, Griffith, Keeler, and Kelley excluded because of 20th century crossover (and to make it easier for me to pick 15 players).
__________________
My avatar is a drawing of a 1958 Topps Hank Aaron by my daughter. If you are interested in one in a similar style based on the card of your choice, details can be found by searching threads with the title phrase Custom Baseball Card Artwork or by PMing me.

Last edited by molenick; 05-26-2022 at 01:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-26-2022, 05:39 PM
Misunderestimated Misunderestimated is offline
Brian
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 280
Default

I'll take the approach that the time limits are OJ subjects (1887-90 but inclusive of the minor leaguers in the set).. So no Cy Young, Jesse Burkett, A.G. Spalding, George Wright, or Jimmy Creighton..

1-A) Cap Anson (I'm just rating him as a player not based on my opinion about his role in excluding African-Americans from "organized baseball") For better or worse he was probably the definitive 19th Century ballplayer.
1-B) Kid Nichols - My pick for best pitcher. He was an 1890's guy which makes him different from the Keefe/Radbourn/Clarkson/Galvin crew who were pretty much done by 1894 when pitching changed.

3) Ed Delahanty -- also more of a 1890's guy, sad story.
4) Personal favorite: Sliding and Scoring Billy Hamilton -- perhaps the greatest leadoff man and run scorer who played until Rickey Henderson (Or Cool Papa Bell... I guess he hit leadoff. It seems logical -- sadly I can't back this up with much data).

5-8 I'm just dumping Clarkson/Radbourn/Keefe and Galvin here -- they played in another world and their stats are crazy. I want to point out Radbourn's 1884 as the best single season -- maybe ever. I'm not sure what the order for these guys is. The contemporaries would have put Hoss first I guess and Galvin last.

9-11 ) Dan Brouthers - Roger Connor, and Sam Thompson -- likely in that order. Great hitters -- power hitters I guess. At peak they were probably better than Anson but they did not run up the career numbers like Cap -- not even close.

12) Buck Ewing -- Those who saw him play and played with and against him regarded him as simply the best. He was known as the best catcher. His numbers don't impress like some of the others. Of course, being a Catcher in the 19th Century was brutal (there's a book about it I read at some point).
-- --
Some others to round out a "team" positionally etc.
2B - Bid McPhee
3B - Deacon White
SS - Jack Glasscock
Utility - $10,000 Mike (King) Kelly (Basically everything but Pitcher) & Bobby Caruthers (Pitcher Outfield)... Both had short careers and they were big winners.

Last edited by Misunderestimated; 05-26-2022 at 10:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-26-2022, 09:18 PM
Joe_G.'s Avatar
Joe_G. Joe_G. is offline
Joe Gonsowski
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: IA (formerly MI)
Posts: 1,143
Default

Fully support Sam Thompson, was wanting to post all week, glad Keith beat me to it.

In my opinion, and I am biased, the other guy that should be on far more lists is Deacon White. As others alluded to and Peter Morris elaborated so well (in his book "Catcher - How the Man Behind the Plate became an American Folk Hero"), a good catcher offered more to a team's success than any other position. It was a position most athletes feared to play. To do it well you had to be extremely skilled and fearless. No one did it better in the 1870s than Deacon White. Deacon caught more games than anyone that decade with innovations that placed him at great risk (such as catching right behind the plate when runners were on base). Catching was brutal, shortened many careers, the wear-and-tear taking toles on offensive production, yet Deacon frequently led or was among the leaders in offense. The value of the catcher would diminish with time, but when it mattered most, Deacon was the best.

Recognizing the tole catching was taking on his hands, Deacon then re-invented himself as a 3rd baseman for the last half of his career and played the position well. In 1888, as the oldest player in baseball, he still was able to hit for average, 6th in the League at .298. Amazing he put up the numbers he did as a catcher, play many short seasons, and still eclipse 2000 hits.


While the following link doesn't provide a lot of stats and analysis, I found it to be an interesting read.

https://www.wbur.org/onlyagame/2017/...l-hall-of-fame

And if we are loving on 19th century catchers, need to give a shout out to Charlie Bennett
__________________
Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski
COLLECTOR OF:
- 19th century Detroit memorabilia and cards with emphasis on Goodwin & Co. issues ( N172 / N173 / N175 ) and Tomlinson cabinets
- N333 SF Hess Newsboys League cards (all teams)
- Pre ATC Merger (1890 and prior) cigarette packs and redemption coupons from all manufacturers

Last edited by Joe_G.; 05-26-2022 at 09:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-26-2022, 09:45 PM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
j'a'y mi.ll.e.r
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 4,830
Default

Great post, Joe, and I love that portrait. Not that it is relevant for this discussion, but Deacon White is also by far the toughest HOFer in the Old Judge set.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-27-2022, 02:49 AM
Schwertfeger1007 Schwertfeger1007 is offline
Brian Schwertfeger
member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Arizona
Posts: 65
Default

-Thank you all for the input and your responses! This has been a super fun read!!

I dove deep tonight and did my own statistical analysis and interestingly enough came up with the same top 10 (although I'm sure it's a different order) as Michael "Molenick".

I focused heavily in a lot of cases on more current statistical segments like WAR and OPS+. I found 4 pitchers that really stood ahead of the rest (although if I was forced to take a 5th it would've been McCormick...sorry Pud!).

As for the position players the top 5 for me were easy to select.

The 6th came down to a tight grouping and I was forced to leave off guys like Thompson (baaarely), Stovey (surprised he wasn't mentioned more), Browning (one of my all time favorites) and Orr (sorry just not enough playing time for me). And at the end of the day, if Connie Mack and Jay Miller say Buck Ewing belong in top 10 then who am I to argue?

Without further ado:

Position-
1. Brouthers
2. Delahanty
3. Anson
4. Connor
5. Hamilton
6. Ewing

Pitchers-
1. Nichols
2. Clarkson
3. Radbourn
4. Keefe

Last edited by Schwertfeger1007; 05-27-2022 at 02:49 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-27-2022, 08:44 AM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
j'a'y mi.ll.e.r
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 4,830
Default

I think the big thing about Radbourn was the 59 wins in 1884. People should realize that if Charley Sweeney didn't leave the team half way through the season Radbourn would never have even approached that number.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-27-2022, 09:06 AM
tiger8mush's Avatar
tiger8mush tiger8mush is offline
Rob G.
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,991
Default Fergy

Charles Ferguson was a 2-way player who accumulated 31.7 WAR in 4 seasons before dying from Typhoid Fever 12 days after turning 25 yrs old.

According to SABR, Wilbert Robinson ranked him top 5 of all time ...
"Perhaps the greatest testament to Ferguson’s abilities as a ballplayer came from one of his contemporaries, Wilbert Robinson. Robinson was a catcher for the crosstown rival Philadelphia Athletics before going on to a Hall of Fame career as a player and manager with the Baltimore Orioles and Brooklyn Robins. When asked in 1931 to name the five greatest ballplayers of all time, Robinson rated Ferguson as the fifth greatest, saying: “Back in the old, old days the Phillies had a man who could pitch like a streak and play the infield, too. His name was Charley Ferguson. You can’t leave him off. … But if I have to name the best five you can put down Cobb, Keeler, Ruth, Wagner, and Ferguson for me."

__________________
Collection on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/139478047@N03/albums
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 05-27-2022, 09:29 AM
molenick's Avatar
molenick molenick is offline
Michael
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 444
Default

The thing about Ewing is both his reputation and his position. Kind of like if Johnny Bench was a first baseman we would look at him like Frank Howard or Boog Powell: a really good player but not an all-time great.

And kudos to Brian for ranking the players...I chickened out and went alphabetical.
__________________
My avatar is a drawing of a 1958 Topps Hank Aaron by my daughter. If you are interested in one in a similar style based on the card of your choice, details can be found by searching threads with the title phrase Custom Baseball Card Artwork or by PMing me.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:00 AM
tiger8mush's Avatar
tiger8mush tiger8mush is offline
Rob G.
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,991
Default

Amateur attempt at fielding a team with "best" 19th century player at each position ...

P - Kid Nichols
C - Buck Ewing (1*)
1st - Cap Anson
2nd - Bid McPhee
3rd - Deacon White (2*)
SS - Jack Glasscock (3*)
LF - Ed Delahanty
CF - Billy Hamilton
RF - King Kelly (4*)
DH - Roger Connor / Dan Brouthers

(1*) honorable mention to Deacon McGuire, who caught 1103 games in the 19th century alone (more than Ewing's 636 and White's 458 careers combined) and another 509 in the 20th century. Wilbert Robinson also caught 1108 of his 1316 games in the 19th century.
(2*) Jimmy Collins and McGraw spent ~1/2 career in 20th century
(3*) George Davis, Bill Dahlen, and Bobby Wallace ~spent 1/2 their careers in 20th century
(4*) Sam Thompson has almost exact stats, it's so close!
__________________
Collection on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/139478047@N03/albums
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:47 AM
jingram058's Avatar
jingram058 jingram058 is offline
J@mes In.gram
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 838
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger8mush View Post
Charles Ferguson was a 2-way player who accumulated 31.7 WAR in 4 seasons before dying from Typhoid Fever 12 days after turning 25 yrs old.

According to SABR, Wilbert Robinson ranked him top 5 of all time ...
"Perhaps the greatest testament to Ferguson’s abilities as a ballplayer came from one of his contemporaries, Wilbert Robinson. Robinson was a catcher for the crosstown rival Philadelphia Athletics before going on to a Hall of Fame career as a player and manager with the Baltimore Orioles and Brooklyn Robins. When asked in 1931 to name the five greatest ballplayers of all time, Robinson rated Ferguson as the fifth greatest, saying: “Back in the old, old days the Phillies had a man who could pitch like a streak and play the infield, too. His name was Charley Ferguson. You can’t leave him off. … But if I have to name the best five you can put down Cobb, Keeler, Ruth, Wagner, and Ferguson for me."

Following your interesting post, I looked up Charles Ferguson. Absolutely amazing story, brought to a tragic and climactic end by Typhoid Fever at age 25. I had never heard of him before. If Uncle Robbie says he is in the all-time top 5, who am I to dispute that? I have a handful of n172 cards. I now wish I had a Charles Ferguson.
__________________
James Ingram

Successful net54 purchases from/trades with:
Tere1071, Bocabirdman, 8thEastVB, GoldenAge50s, IronHorse2130, Kris19, G1911, dacubfan, sflayank, Smanzari

I'm not a card investment broker - raw cards only. They call me "The Cooler"
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 05-27-2022, 05:33 PM
molenick's Avatar
molenick molenick is offline
Michael
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 444
Default

I like the idea of doing it by position so I will just expand it to a 15 man roster, which, if not the exact roster size in this time period, I think is close.

I will go with:
P - Nichols
P - Keefe
P - Clarkson
P - Radbourn
C - Ewing
1st - Brouthers
2nd -McPhee
3rd - White
SS - Glasscock
LF - Delahanty
CF - Hamilton
RF - Thompson
UT - Kelly
UT - Ward
DH - Anson
DH - Connor
__________________
My avatar is a drawing of a 1958 Topps Hank Aaron by my daughter. If you are interested in one in a similar style based on the card of your choice, details can be found by searching threads with the title phrase Custom Baseball Card Artwork or by PMing me.

Last edited by molenick; 05-27-2022 at 06:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 05-29-2022, 02:20 PM
familytoad's Avatar
familytoad familytoad is offline
Br1@n L1ndh0lm3
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ridgefield, WA
Posts: 1,840
Default Big Sam

Sam is one of my favorites too...it doesn't hurt that I have just a half dozen 19th Century HOFers in my collection and he's one of them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Great summary, Keith. Sam is one of the most underrated players in history.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg N172 Sam Thompson.jpg (49.9 KB, 60 views)
__________________
Thanks!

Brian L
Familytoad
Ridgefield, WA

Hall of Fame collector.
Prewar Set collector.
Topps Era collector.
1971 Topps Football collector.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
anyone have a pic of these 19th century players? milkit1 Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 0 07-27-2009 06:25 PM
19th century poster advertising Goodwin's 19th century baseball cards Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 23 04-22-2009 05:58 AM
HOF 19th century players Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 4 11-23-2007 12:30 PM
Think theres deserving 19th century players not in the HOF Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 36 06-06-2005 12:39 PM
Recognize any of these 19th century players? Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 0 01-16-2004 03:39 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:30 AM.


ebay GSB