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  #1  
Old 09-09-2009, 01:42 PM
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Default Slightly OT - 1982 Topps Blackless

Has anyone here come across information on the Blackless variation that is supposedly available from this year?
Anyone have any pics to post?
and lastly, anyone have an Ozzie Smith or Ron Cey to sell me?

I'd appreciate any and all information or references you can post.
thanks,
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  #2  
Old 09-10-2009, 06:17 PM
sschauer sschauer is offline
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Default Here are the Rose Blackless





Here's description from scd

Whether through faulty
pre-production work or the
simple fact that the black ink
may have run dry during printing,
exactly half of the 1982
Topps cards can be found in a
blackless version. All cards
on the sets A, B and C press
sheets can be found blackless.
On regular players cards the
lack of black printing is most
obvious in the absence of the
facsimile autograph on front.
The thin black pinstripe around
the player photo is also missing
on those cards. On cards in
which the position was supposed
to be printed in black, it
will be missing on these variations.
All-Star cards affected by
this error will be missing the
players name. It is estimated
fewer than 100 of each blackless
card were released. Originally
cards from the A and B
sheets were found in metro
New York, while the C cards
turned up most often in the
Midwest. Cards from the C
sheet are much scarcer than
those from the A and B sheets,
although limited collector demand
for full sets has kept prices
in relative parity.
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  #3  
Old 09-10-2009, 07:11 PM
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Here are some examples. I have a few more that are not scanned, some I believe are graded by PSA and labeled as "blackless." The 80's had some great and tough variations as well as tests, samples, and proofs.

Bob Fisk and "Bishop" are the experts on these. There are also several old posts on CU that go into detail.






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  #4  
Old 09-11-2009, 01:07 AM
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Default Topps Baseball 82 Blackless variation

I am working on putting together a set of these variations, at the moment, I'm about half way there. I would be interested in hearing from anybody who has an interest in pre 1993 Topps baseball variations.

Email me at doug.goodman@earthlink.net

Sorry for the long post,
Doug


The following is not mine. I "borrowed" it from an ebay listing a couple of years ago. I do not know the author and apologize for posting his, what I believe to be excellent work, without giving credit. As I have worked on putting my set together, the information below all seems to be true :



For those dedicated collectors working to complete their MASTER SET of 1982 Topps BLACKLESS cards, I am including a complete CHECKLIST of all 400 different cards in a set below. To the best of my knowledge, not one single collector has yet managed to put together a complete set of all 400 cards!

In each of the BLACKLESS VARIATIONS for a specific 1982 Topps card number the black ink features present on the front of the NORMALLY PRINTED VERSION of that card number are missing or reduced to substantially nothing more than grayish wisps.

As is the case for the card covered by this auction, in each BLACKLESS VARIATION of a player's REGULAR CARD number in the 1982 Topps set, missing or substantially reduced to nothing more than grayish wisps are BOTH the FACSIMILE PLAYER'S AUTOGRAPH and the NARROW BLACK BORDERLINE present around the player's photograph on the front of the common NORMALLY PRINTED VERSION of the card number.

396 of the 792 card numbers in the 1982 Topps set exist as Blackless Variations. Four of these numbers exist as two different Blackless varieties each, making a COMPLETE SET of 82T Blackless 400 different cards. From what I have been to determine, no single collector has been able to put together all 400 cards. Published and other information indicate that ONLY ABOUT 10 TO 100 OR LESS of EACH of the 396 card numbers were produced in Blackless Variation form (with the KEN FORSCH RED-STRIP-ON-CAP version apparently being the RAREST OF ALL and THE KEY CARD in a TRULY COMPLETE BLACKLESS MASTER SET). The experience of collectors most knowledgeable about these variations (including myself) suggests that what are known as "B" and "C" Blackless cards are generally tougher-to-find (that is, SHORT PRINTS) than most of what are known as "A" Blackless. It appears likely that many "B" and "C" Blackless were issued by Topps in quantities of less than 50 each, with some probably being issued with less than 20 each. The card being offered through this auction is an "A" Blackless.

The 400 different Blackless Variations were printed by Topps on three differently coded sheets, with 132 card numbers per each letter-coded sheet. To determine the sheet from which a respective Blackless Variation comes, look for the small letter "A". "B" or "C" next to an asterisk near the bottom of the card. "A" and "B" Blackless Variations showed up in packs distributed by Topps mostly on Long Island (New York) and in New Jersey. "C" Blackless are reported to have been distributed by Topps only in the vicinity of Detroit, Michigan.

When bidding on 1982 Blackless Variations, please be certain to keep in mind that the "B" and "C" Blackless were issued in significantly lower amounts than the "A" Blackless and that the market prices for "B" and "C" SHORT PRINT cards are proving to be considerably higher than for the "A" Blackless. Therefore, expect to pay substantially more for "B" and "C" Blackless. Also, it should be noted that high grade "B" and "C" Blackless are disproportionately harder to find. Apparently, for many "B" and "C" Blackless numbers, the card typically comes with major off-center, skewed cutting, and/or other grade problems. Not a single high grade card may exist for many "B" and "C" card numbers. Collectors of Blackless, especially collectors trying to complete a Blackless set, therefore should not be picky about grading. Just finding all of the cards -- in ANY condition and at ANY price -- needed to complete the 400-card Blackless set is one of the hardest things for a card collector to accomplish. In fact, so far as I have been able to determine, NOT one single collector has yet been able to put together a COMPLETE 400-CARD 1982 BLACKLESS set. And also be certain to disregard the prices for 1982 Blackless given in standard baseball card catalogs. Overall the listed prices in those catalogs are far below what Blackless -- especially the "B" and "C" short prints -- actually sell for in the marketplace.


PSA-MISLABELING-BLACKLESS ADDENDUM

Unfortunately PSA has mislabeled as "BLACKLESS" many examples of the very common, black-feature-including versions of a number of 1982 Topps cards. Someone at PSA apparently goofed big time. Even more unfortunate is that a number of these PSA-mislabeled almost worthless cards are showing up in auctions on eBay by other sellers as being "BLACKLESS" at prices no knowledgeable collector would pay for what actually are just PSA-mislabeled very common cards.

Even now, as I prepare this auction for placement on eBay, I see that another seller has up for bid auctions for five PSA-mislabeled as "BLACKLESS" but in reality are the very common black-feature-including versions. Do a SEARCH on eBay and see this for yourself. These PSA-mislabeled 1982 Topps cards which are NOT "BLACKLESS" include: #81 JIM PALMER PSA 9, #781 PETE ROSE PSA 9, #339 SCHMIDT PSA 10, #101 SCHMIDT PSA 9. and #781 PETE ROSE PSA 9. Those cards are a mixture of IN ACTION and ALL STAR cards. Please check the scans in those auctions for yourself: you'll quickly see how each of the IN ACTION cards in those auctions contain the BLACK INK feature of the narrow borderline around the player's photograph and how the SCHMIDT ALL STAR card contains this narrow borderline AND the name "MIKE SCHMIDT" print-lettered in BLACK on the bottom of the card! Those cards are OBVIOUSLY NOT "BLACKLESS".

Anyone who understands what a TRUE Blackless Variation looks like will quickly recognize that the cards which is being offered in those other auctions are in fact the COMMON REGULAR VERSION and NOT the VERY RARE BLACKLESS VARIATION. To be an authentic Blackless Variation a card MUST be missing or have reduced to almost nothing all of the BLACK INK features on the front of the card. On each of the IN ACTION cards, the VERY NARROW BLACK BORDERLINE around the player's photograph is PRESENT in the COMMON NORMALLY PRINTED VERSION, but this BORDERLINE is missing or reduced to substantially no more than a grayish wisp in the BLACKLESS VARIATION. And BOTH the BORDERLINE and the PRINTED-LETTER NAME of the player are missing in all BLACKLESS VARIATIONS of the ALL STAR cards.

PSA goofed big time! Be careful that you do not become one of the victims of that PSA goof!


CHECKLIST of ALL 400 DIFFERENT CARDS in a COMPLETE SET of 1982 TOPPS BLACKLESS


(I am not posting the list due to it's length, email me and I will send it to you)
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  #5  
Old 09-12-2009, 12:55 AM
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If I remember correctly, the two names mentioned above have a complete or completed the blackless set. The ebay copy you posted could have been made by one of them...not sure?

Here is an article I wrote in 2005 about the Bob Fisk collection, he specializes in variation sets. His collection is truly amazing...plus he is an awesome guy. Joe Orlando deleted my name from this and all my other SMR published articles when my website went up. I also got banned from "everything PSA." I talked my way back into membership but he refused to credit my name on the articles (bummer).

Along with vintage, I also enjoy collecting pre-1991 variations. Typically not completing sets but a nice sampling. I do have a complete graded 66 card set of the 1984 Topps encased proofs. These especially tough because they only came in single sheet form, needless to say many are found off centered. GAI was the only company who would grade them at the time. Thankfully my cutting skills paid off and the set has an 8.8 GPA.

Since that set came out so good, I eventually found two others and divided them as well. Barring a few cards that were creased or stained when the sheet arrived, those also came out great and are currently raw in a binder. I turned down $700 for a raw Ryan.

When found in singles, HOF's usually sell for $50 on up, a few error cards about $150 and commons around $10.


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  #6  
Old 09-12-2009, 09:35 AM
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Default Topps 1982 Blackless and Variations

I collect Topps variations and printing errors with all my sets, 51 to present. I, like Bob, have a blackless "set" of 396. I do not have the 4 "variations" of the basic print defects that make up the "base" set. I have seen them on scans. The only one I specifically remember is the Ken Forsch card which has a stray red dot on his cap.

The only person I know who has the 4 variations is the same person who authored the description in the prior post. He used to sell on ebay under the name zenithium. He may still sell blackless and other variations, but most recently had been selling stuff through another seller. You may be able to contact him under the name zenitium through ebay. If so, I have found Fred to be very generous with his knowledge of blackless specifically and variations in general. He tended to collect uncatalogged variations in the hopes they would be recognized later. On Blackless and the 80 Topps yellows he did pretty well. Also the 84 Encased cards. In a recent contact with Fred it is my understanding his blackless set is not complete, but he does still have what he believes are the 4 variations

Bob and I bought most of our blackless from 5 guys, 2 in NY ( As and Bs) and 2 from Michigan ( Cs). Can not remember where the 5th guy was located. The cards did appear in packs, and there was apparently an unopened cello with a blackless card on top on ebay recently

It is hard to complete the set in complete blackless, partly because some cards are hard to locate ( Stanley and Morris come to mind), and in some cases the cards actually have grey or light grey signatures where the black ink had not completely run out....more variations !

After completeing my Topps sets I gravitated to variations, catalogged and uncatalogged,. Be happy to compare notes with anyone who has a similar interest...blackless or otherwise

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 09-12-2009 at 09:43 AM.
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  #7  
Old 09-12-2009, 01:01 PM
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Al Richter
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Default 1982 Blackless

I checked my 82 "blackless notes" and Zenithium, the seller who wrote the detailed description posted in this thread, believes there are at least 4 variations to the 396 blackless set. They are....drum roll :

365 Madlock..."Cloud" near players name on back...I have not seen it

385 Forsch--"red feature on cap"...I have seen a scan...very small red dot

664 Spillner..."underlining look" under letters of player's name...I do not even know what that means

675 Cooper...another cloud by name on back.

I decided after he told me about them that I would stick to what I had, but I think Bob wants them real bad
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  #8  
Old 11-09-2009, 07:29 AM
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Default request for opinion...

I recently purchased a 82 Blackless Ozzie Smith, and posted a scan in the Nov pickups thread...the card has alot of dark printing marks across the bottom of the image and scattered in a few places, and it got me to wondering if this is a true blackless card? what are your opinions?
I cast no aspersions to the seller, but it seems that maybe this isn't a true blackless if it has such stray printing marks, that look black?

thoughts?

thanks,
Jason
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  #9  
Old 11-09-2009, 09:07 AM
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Default Ozzie Blackless

Jason---it looks good to me. The normal black signature would be in the upper left and the card shows no signs of a light grey signature, which can be found on a lot of semi blackless cards ( The Morris and Stanley were hard to find with no hint grey signature). Mine has a few grey blotches/dots near the bottom like yours, but no grey streaks where the black ink lines are on the regular cards. I can sens you a color copy of mine if you want to compare
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  #10  
Old 11-10-2010, 06:20 PM
arexcrooke arexcrooke is offline
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Do these cards carry any type of premium?
nevermind, i looked and found out for myself that they do, and sometimes very large premiums

Last edited by arexcrooke; 11-10-2010 at 06:31 PM.
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  #11  
Old 11-11-2010, 07:16 AM
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You will find two types of premiums on these. The ones buyers are actually willing to pay, and the one some sellers think buyers should be willing to pay. The demand and supply lines often fail to intersect

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 08-08-2020 at 01:01 PM.
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  #12  
Old 11-11-2010, 07:17 AM
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Is there an up-to-date error and variation book on the market ? I have one from I think the '80s.
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  #13  
Old 11-11-2010, 08:56 AM
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Default Variations

I only collect Topps and Fleer baseball, and the principal sources I have used are the SCD big book and a publication by a guy named Gilkeson, that was updated through 1995. The latter covers basketball, football and baseball and has a lot of stuff not covered in the traditional catalogs ( but a lot of the listings are printing defects and errors, as well as variations).

With all the selling and scans on the internet/ebay today, there has been an explosion in listed errors, variations and print defects. But the most sought after ones are the ones that make it into the master set lists on the registry or in one of the major catalogs. I like the SCD Standard Catalog Of Baseball Cards, myself.

Doug Goodman on this board ( posted in this this thread) has a lot of expertise in this area.
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Old 11-12-2010, 01:27 AM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Default Al is too kind...

While I do like to think that I have accumulated a bit of knowledge of Topps baseball issues and their vriations. I would bet that he is among the many people who leave me in the dust when it comes to level of expertise.

I am also a fan of the SCD catalog. The Gilkeson book has variations that aren't listed in the catalog. I agree with most of Gilkeson's variations (that I have seen) but I consider a few of them to be printing errors not true variations.

I agree with Al that the 4 "variations" in the blackless set are not variations, but are glorified print dots.

I'm happy to be involved in a hobby where people can collect what they choose to collect, and because of that I choose to consider the blackless set complete at 396 cards.

Simiilarly, I do not consider the Herrera 1958 "variation" to be a variation, although if I find one cheap, I will buy it :-)

Have fun, I suppose that's the best rule to follow.

Doug
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Old 11-12-2010, 07:17 AM
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Default Blackless

I agree with Doug on the blackless set being done at 396. The 4 proposed Blackless "variations" all recently showed up for sale on ebay by the seller who touts them in the description in this thread. All sold for large sums but not to the same buyer, so there may never be a master 400 set . I actually have one of the 4 and a couple of other print differences in a couple of my other cards from that set

We need a Variation Convention
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  #16  
Old 11-12-2010, 05:15 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop View Post
We need a Variation Convention
To my way of thinking, it's pretty easy :

Are there DIFFERENCES in the card that are explained by a DIFFERENT printing of the card?

I predict a semantics arguement.

The 1952 Mantle is a perfect example, because I don't think it's generally considered to have a variation. There are obvious DIFFERENCES on the card that could only happen with two completely different printings of the card.

The newly discovered 1963 variations have cropping differences that prove there were two completely different prints of each card.

The 1958 Herrera is an inking issue, NOT a different version of the card. It's nothing but a print dot.

I don't actually like the fact that 1982 Blackless are called variations, they are in fact, just like the Herrara, print mistakes, BUT because the autograph is completely missing instead of just random spots (like when there are blank spots in borders, or parts of letters missing like the Herrera) I grudgingly go with it.

If I ever have 15 copies of the 1952 Mantle, and I want to buy a new house. I will have each of them graded by some schmuck with a degree in plastic holder technology, and then I will point out every little print dot as a "SuPeR RaRe variation/ ErRoR!!!!!!!" in my ebay listing.

Can one of you guys slap some sence into me, if I ever go that far over the edge?

Doug
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Old 11-12-2010, 08:07 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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But a variation doesn't have to be a different printing. The missing top line variations from 81 Topps are just from different places on the sheet. I'd bet the 52 Mantle is also a double print with differences.

I collect a couple really obscure variations.
1988 Score second print run where the tufts of pulled cardboard from the diecutting were moved from the corners to about 1/4 of an inch in.
really not that easy of a subset to find. I haven't had access to a huge lot of 88 score so I'm not sure just how tough they are, but they're not as easy as you might think.

And 1991 Topps which has 3 different types of ink on the back. One that glows under UV light, one that doesn't, and one that turns a very dark red under UV. The last is actually fairly tough, only about 20 in roughly 10,000 cards. (Yeah, for 91 Topps that's a pretty small sampling and someone else probably has a couple monster boxes of just those.)

Plus a few other odd variation things, different holograms on UD cards, 93 Ud with 3 differnt gloss patterns on the reverse....stuff like that.


Somewhere I still have the Ralph Nozaki variation catalog. Interesting stuff, but not as extensive a listing as we have today.


Steve B
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Old 11-12-2010, 09:23 PM
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Al Richter
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Default Variations

I have 3 version of the 52 Campos---regular back, black star and regular back with missing upper left front border ( which was highlighted in a recent SCD article.) The latter is a print defect. Is the black star a print defect ?

To be a variation does the card have to be intentionally changed to correct a defect ( the Spahn 59 DOBs), or to update the card ( the 59 trade/ option cards) ? Are the yellow letter 58s defects or variations ? The 69 white letters ? Is the 59 Ramos on ebay now just an error ? ( I have one so it is not unique). Are the 3 59 Sullivans all defects or is one a variation ? Are the 62 greenies variations or just a second print run by a second production company ? The 80 yellows and the no name Pyor from the same year ? The 73 Manager cards ?. The number of differences/variation in the 91 set is staggering. The 90 No Name Thomas and related cards missing some black ink ? The 82 Blackless are clearly a print defect, but they made it into the SCD Catalog

If they end up in the SCD catalog, I get them ( although unfortunately I have stayed a bit beyond it in some cases ) Having completed all the Topps sets, it is how I get my collector amusement these days. When they make it into the Catalog, they often then make it into the Registry. If they get there, a lot of people want them, whatever they are. Mr Lemke can break a lot of hearts
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  #19  
Old 11-13-2010, 03:55 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
But a variation doesn't have to be a different printing. The missing top line variations from 81 Topps are just from different places on the sheet. I'd bet the 52 Mantle is also a double print with differences.
A double printing, from different locations on the sheet qualifies as a different printing, by my definition.

Doug
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Old 11-13-2010, 03:59 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop View Post
If they end up in the SCD catalog, I get them ( although unfortunately I have strayed a bit beyond it in some cases ) Having completed all the Topps sets, it is how I get my collector amusement these days. When they make it into the Catalog, they often then make it into the Registry. If they get there, a lot of people want them, whatever they are. Mr Lemke can break a lot of hearts
I tend to agree, some of you may know me as the guy who thinks that each 1963 peel-off has three back variations, so I stray a bit, too.

Doug
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  #21  
Old 11-16-2010, 08:47 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug.goodman View Post
A double printing, from different locations on the sheet qualifies as a different printing, by my definition.

Doug
I think of a different printing as coming from a different mask, or different plate, or run at a different plant. Just one of those things where even a simple attempt at a definition has a lot of room for interpretation.

The Mask is the group of negatives assembled on opaque paper that's used to expose the plates.

To answer ALRs questions by my thinking
Spahn 59 and trade/option cards - variation, different mask,and hence different plate and printing.
58 yellow letters 69 white letters - Variation, different mask again
59 sullivans - at least 2 are variations, it would be really unusual for a print problem to eliminate the circle without also affecting the c. I hate to say impossible, but nearly so. The missing period is a bit tougher to figure, but it's probably not just a defect.
62 greens - variations for sure, probably printed at two different times. I'm not positive, but I believe some of the listed variations will be only normal, and some only green.
80 yellows /pryor - probably errors. I haven't seen one in hand, but it looks like a color got missed. I wasn't aware of them till I just looked them up. Time to check the set.
73 manager cards - Variations, once you look close, they're more different that it seems at first glance.
90 no name Thomas - A tough one to figure. I've only seen one, and it struck me as an error because the black was missing over an area that looked like a torn bit of paper got in the way. But that sort of thing usually happens once and then the next sheet gets a black printed area where ink has soaked into the paper assuming it stayed on the plate or blanket. That there are multiples of it makes me think that it's a scrap of paper that got between the mask and plate during exposure. Probably found and replaced very quickly.

The 82 blackless are a missing color error, just missing the black which was printed last.

91 Topps is totally insane. The big batch I had also yeilded a misprint I thought I'd never see, partial wrong backs. Not the off center ones that turn up from time to time, but Manager cards with the redish background being from a players card. So the black was correctly printed on a sheet that had the wrong red back. If anyone collects unlisted 91 Topps variations I'd be interested in comparing lists.

I also collect unusual marks that come from wear on the plates, usually scratches.

Steve B
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  #22  
Old 11-16-2010, 09:27 AM
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Default Variations

I have a long list of the 91 variation/errors I have accumulated that I could send you. I could also send you color copies of my 80 Yellows and Pryor.

With the exception of the 3d Sullivan ( no period), I have all the others we have been discussing, including the Blackless set. I have gone a little overboard on these things.

For example, for 1953 collectors there is a variation of card 123, Byrne, in which the printing on the back is white or black, and card 247, Sandlock, can be found with a recurring defect in which the front left border bleeds into the card picture. It is similar, although more pronounced, to the overpriced 59 Ramos "variation" on ebay now, which is also recurring because I have one of them. The 59 set has a couple more of these too. The 58 set as well

I agree there are cropping differences on the 73 Manager cards, as well as colors, but are the cropping differences different than the recently highlighted 63 differences.

Fun stuff. No right or wrong answers. Collect what you like and if it ends up in one of the catalogs or the Registry it is a bonus
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  #23  
Old 01-21-2011, 11:50 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Default Updates to the checklist

Hi guys -

I have gone thru my 1982 sets of individual cards and uncut sheets to confirm that there were mistakes on the list of existing blackless cards that I have been using (the "Zenithum" list), and that I had previously posted. Thanx to Steve Leone for assuring me that the Jackson IA card did not come with a blackless variation, prompting me to see what other mistakes I had. A list of the changes is as follows :

#049 Woods confirmed as B type (previously listed as C type)
#084 Stennett confirmed as A type (previously listed as B type)
#114 Landreaux confirmed as B type (previously listed as C type)
#237 Kuntz confirmed as B type (previously listed as A type)
#301 Jackson IA confirmed as NOT listed (previously listed as A type)
#409 Cooper confirmed as B type (previously listed as C type)
#430 Blue confirmed as B type (previously listed NOT LISTED)
#492 Price confirmed as B type (previously listed as C type)
#507 Harper confirmed as B type (previously listed as C type)
#568 Pettini confirmed as B type (previously listed as C type)
#602 Patek confirmed as B type (previously listed as A type)
#764 Swisher confirmed as B type (previously listed as C type)

Summary by type :
1 A type is deleted from the list (Jackson IA)
2 A type change to B type (Kuntz, Patek)
1 B type changes to A type (Stennett)
1 B type is added to the list (Blue)
7 C type change to B type (Woods, Landreaux, Cooper, Price, Harper, Pettini, Swisher)

Let me know if I missed somethng,
Doug



CHECKLIST of ALL 396 DIFFERENT CARDS in a COMPLETE SET of 1982 TOPPS BLACKLESS

8 RICH DAUER "B
9 RON GUIDRY "A"
10 RON GUIDRY IN ACT "B
11 GARY ALEXANDER "C
12 MOOSE HAAS "A"
13 LAMAR JOHNSON "B
14 STEVE HOWE "A"
17 DARRELL EVANS "B
18 FERNANDO ARROYO "B
20 GARRY MADDOX "A"
24 DAVE FROST "C
26 JORGE ORTA "C
28 JOHN URREA "C
31 TOM SEAVER IN ACT "A"
35 WILLIE AIKENS "A"
37 DAN GRAHAM "C
38 CHARLIE LEA "B
39 LOU WHITAKER "C
40 DAVE PARKER "A"
42 RICK SOFIELD "C
48 BOBBY CASTILLO "C
49 ALVIS WOODS "B
50 BUDDY BELL "A"
52 LARRY ANDERSEN "C
54 RON HASSEY "A"
55 RICK BURLESON "A"
60 TONY ARMAS "A"
64 LYNN JONES "C
65 TERRY KENNEDY "A"
67 RICH GALE "B
68 ROY HOWELL "C
70 TIM RAINES "B
71 ROY LEE JACKSON "A"
72 RICK AUERBACH "C
73 BUDDY SOLOMON "C
74 BOB CLARK "C
77 MIGUEL DILONE "B
78 GEORGE MEDICH "B
80 JIM PALMER "B
81 JIM PALMER IN ACT "C
84 RENNIE STENNETT "A
87 MATT KEOUGH "B
88 BIFF POCOROBA "C
89 STEVE HENDERSON "B
90 NOLAN RYAN "B
91 CARNEY LANSFORD "A"
92 BRAD HAVENS "B
94 ANDY HASSLER "C
95 OZZIE SMITH "A"
98 TERRY BULLING "C
99 BARRY BONNELL "B
100 MIKE SCHMIDT "A"
101 MIKE SCHMIDT IN ACT "C
105 KIRK GIBSON "A"
107 WAYNE KRENCHICKI "C
109 DAVE REVERING "B
110 CARLTON FISK "A"
112 BILLY SAMPLE "A"
113 STEVE MCCATTY "B
114 KEN LANDREAUX "B
115 GAYLORD PERRY "B
116 JIM WOHLFORD "C
117 RAWLY EASTWICK "C
119 JOE PITTMAN "C
120 GARY LUCAS "B
122 JAMIE EASTERLY "C
123 DANNY GOODWIN "B
125 DANNY AINGE "B
127 LONNIE SMITH "A"
128 FRANK PASTORE "C
130 JULIO CRUZ "A"
131 STAN BAHNSEN "B
132 LEE MAY "C
134 DAN FORD "C
135 ANDY RINCON "B
136 LENN SAKATA "B
137 CAPPUZZELLO "C
138 TONY PENA "C
140 RON LEFLORE "A"
143 MOOKIE WILSON "A"
147 DENNY WALLING "B
150 TED SIMMONS "B
155 OTTO VELEZ "A"
157 STEVE CRAWFORD "B
158 BRIAN DOWNING "C
159 LARRY BIITTNER "C
160 LUIS TIANT "A"
170 JIM BIBBY "A"
172 BILL GULLICKSON "B
173 JAMIE QUIRK "B
174 DAVE FORD "B
175 JERRY MUMPHREY "B
177 JOHN ELLIS "B
178 DYAR MILLER "B
179 STEVE GARVEY "A"
181 SILVIO MARTINEZ "B
183 MIKE PROLY "B
185 PHIL NIEKRO "B
189 GLENN HOFFMAN "B
190 J.R. RICHARD "A"
192 BRODERICK PERKINS "A"
198 CHRIS SPEIER "B
200 GEORGE BRETT "A"
201 BRETT IN ACT "C
204 GARY ROENICKE "B
209 GARY LAVELLE "A"
210 KEITH HERNANDEZ "B
211 DAN PETRY "C
212 MARIO MENDOZA "A"
215 MIKE KRUKOW "B
220 MANNY TRILLO "B
221 JIM SLATON "B
222 BUTCH WYNEGAR "A"
223 LLOYD MOSEBY "A"
224 BRUCE BOCHTE "A"
225 MIKE TORREZ "C
228 SAM MEJIAS "B
230 WILLIE WILSON "A"
232 TERRY CROWLEY "B
233 DUANE KUIPER "A"
234 RON HODGES "B
235 MIKE EASLER "A"
237 RUSTY KUNTZ "B"
238 KEVIN SAUCIER "A"
239 JON MATLACK "B
240 BUCKY DENT "A"
241 DENT IN ACT "B
245 KEN REITZ "B
247 PED GUERRERO A
251 FRED LYNN "B
255 TONY PEREZ "B
256 PEREZ IN ACT "C
257 LARRY HARLOW "B
258 BO DIAZ "B
259 RODNEY SCOTT "A"
260 BRUCE SUTTER "A"
262 DOUG BAIR "C
264 QUISENBERRY "B
265 AL BUMBRY "B
267 KURT BEVACQUA "C
270 RUSTY STAUB "A"
272 BUMP WILLS "B
275 BOB WATSON "C
278 JOHN LITTLEFIELD "B
280 BEN OGLIVIE "C
281 JOHN VERHOEVEN "B
282 KEN MACHA "C
283 BRIAN ALLARD "C
285 SPARKY LYLE "A"
287 ALAN BANNISTER "B
288 GARRY TEMPLETON "C
289 BOB STANLEY "B
290 KEN SINGLETON "A"
297 CLINT HURDLE "C
299 STEVE TROUT "A"
300 REGGIE JACKSON "A"
302 DOUG FLYNN "C
305 DON SUTTON "B
307 RANDY BASS "C
308 CHARLIE MOORE "A"
310 MIKE HARGROVE "B
312 LENNY RANDLE "B
313 JOHN HARRIS "C
315 BURT HOOTON "A"
317 DICK RUTHVEN "A"
323 BILL LEE "B
324 STEVE DILLARD "C
325 JOSE CRUZ "B
328 ED FARMER "A"
329 U.L. WASHINGTON "A"
330 RICK WISE "C
332 DON ROBINSON "A"
334 AURELIO RODRIGUEZ "B
335 JIM SUNDBERG "B
339 MIKE SCHMIDT ALL STAR "A"
340 DAVE CONCEPCION ALL STAR "A"
341 ANDRE DAWSON ALL STAR "A"
342 GEORGE FOSTER ALL STAR "A"
343 DAVE PARKER ALL STAR "A"
344 GARY CARTER ALL STAR "C
345 VALENZUELA ALL STAR "C
349 GEORGE FRAZIER "C
352 DICK DAVIS "C
354 ROBERTO RAMOS "C
355 DWIGHT EVANS "A"
357 BUTCH HOBSON "A"
359 JIM DWYER "B
360 LEN BARKER "C
363 BOB MOLINARO "C
365 BILL MADLOCK "A"
370 MIKE NORRIS "A"
380 DAVE STIEB "A"
382 JOE SIMPSON "C
385 KEN FORSCH "A"
387 TOM VERYZER "A"
388 JOE RUDI "A"
390 EDDIE MURRAY "C
397 KEN BRETT "C
398 MIKE SQUIRES "C
399 PAT ZACHRY "A"
400 JOHNNY BENCH "C
406 AL HOLLAND "C
409 DON COOPER "B
412 LUIS LEAL "A"
413 DAN MEYER "C
415 DON BAYLOR "C
417 PAT KELLY "B
419 STEVE STONE "B
420 GEORGE HENDRICK "A"
421 MARK CLEAR "C
422 CLIFF JOHNSON "A"
423 STAN PAPI "C
424 BRUCE BENEDICT "A"
425 JOHN CANDELARIA "B
430 VIDA BLUE B
440 JEFF BURROUGHS "A"
442 BRUCE KISON "C
443 MARK WAGNER "C
445 LARRY PARRISH "B
446 WAYNE GARLAND "B
448 DARRELL PORTER IN ACT "C
450 JACK MORRIS "C
451 ED MILLER "C
459 BRUCE BERENYI "B
460 JACK CLARK "C
461 RICH DOTSON "A"
462 DAVE CHALK"C
463 JIM KERN "B
464 JUAN BONILLA "B
465 LEE MAZZILLI "A"
467 MICKEY HATCHER "C
468 FLOYD BANNISTER "C
472 OSCAR GAMBLE "A"
475 ALAN TRAMMELL "C
476 BRIAN KINGMAN "A"
477 STEVE YEAGER "B
480 STEVE CARLTON "B
481 STEVE CARLTON IN ACT "C
484 IVAN DEJESUS "C
490 DENNIS ECKERSLEY "B
492 JOE PRICE "B
493 CHET LEMON "A"
494 HUBIE BROOKS "A"
495 DENNIS LEONARD "A"
496 JOHNNY GRUBB "A"
498 DAVE BERGMAN "C
499 PAUL MIRABELLA "A"
500 ROD CAREW "A"
501 ROD CAREW IN ACT "B
503 JULIO GONZALEZ "C
507 TERRY HARPER "B
510 FERNANDO VALENZUELA "A"
511 RUPPERT JONES "A"
512 JERRY DYBZINSKI "B
515 LARRY BOWA "B
518 GARTH IORG "A"
519 GLENN ADAMS "C
520 MIKE FLANAGAN "C
521 BILL ALMON "C
523 GARY GRAY "C
524 TOM HAUSMAN "C
532 TOBY HARRAH "B
534 DAVE MCKAY "B
536 RAFAEL RAMIREZ "B
540 ANDRE DAWSON "B
541 BARRY EVANS "B
542 NED YOST "C
543 BILL ROBINSON "C
547 ROD CAREW ALL STAR "A"
548 WILLIE RANDOLPH ALL STAR "C
549 GEORGE BRETT ALL STAR "C
550 BUCKY DENT ALL STAR "C
551 JACKSON ALL STAR "A"
552 SINGLETON ALL STAR "A"
553 WINFIELD ALL STAR "A"
554 FISK ALL STAR "A"
555 MCGREGOR AS "C
556 MORRIS ALL STAR "A"
557 GOSSAGE ALL STAR "A"
560 DOUG CORBETT "C
563 ROSS BAUMGARTEN "A"
564 DOUG DECINCES "A"
565 JACKSON TODD "C
567 BOB BABCOCK "C
568 JOE PETTINI "B
569 WILLIE RANDOLPH "B
573 RICK WAITS "C
574 MIKE RAMSEY "B
575 AL COWENS "C
579 RICK MAHLER "C
580 BOBBY BONDS "B
581 RON REED "B
582 LUIS PUJOLS "B
585 ROLLIE FINGERS "C
588 DALE BERRA "B
590 AL OLIVER "B
594 RENIE MARTIN "C
600 DAVE WINFIELD "A"
601 SID MONGE "B
602 FREDDIE PATEK "B"
603 RICH HEBNER "C
608 JERRY ROYSTER "B
610 HENDERSON "C
611 JOE NIEKRO "A"
612 GARY WARD "B
613 JIM GANTNER "A"
615 BOB BOONE "A"
616 BOONE IN ACT "C
622 DENNIS LAMP "C
624 FERGUSON JENKINS "A"
625 HAL MCRAE "A"
626 RANDY JONES "A"
627 ENOS CABELL "B
629 JOHN WOCKENFUSS "A"
630 JOE CHARBONEAU "B
632 BRYAN CLARK "C
635 RON DAVIS "A"
637 RICK CAMP "C
640 CESAR CEDENO "B
645 FRANK WHITE "A"
646 WHITE IN ACT "C
648 JOSE MORALES "B
649 KEN CLAY "C
654 JIM MORRISON "A"
655 JOEL YOUNGBLOOD "A"
656 EDDIE WHITSON "B
661 CONCEPCION IA "C
663 HECTOR CRUZ "C
664 DAN SPILLNER "A"
665 JIM CLANCY "C
668 DALE MURPHY "B
669 MILBOURNE "B
670 STEVE KEMP "A"
672 BOB KNEPPER "A"
675 CECIL COOPER "A"
677 ALFREDO GRIFFIN "C
678 TOM PACIOREK "B
684 HAROLD BAINES "A"
685 BERT BLYLEVEN "C
686 GARY ALLENSON "A"
690 DAVE KINGMAN "B
691 DAN SCHATZEDER "C
694 DAVE WEHRMEISTER "C
695 WARREN CROMARTIE "C
700 GEORGE FOSTER "B
702 STEVE RENKO "C
704 MICKEY RIVERS "C
705 MICKEY RIVERS IN ACT "C
706 BARRY FOOTE "B
707 MARK BOMBACK "A"
708 GENE RICHARDS "A"
710 JERRY REUSS "C
713 DEL UNSER "B
715 WILLIE STARGELL "C
716 WILLIE STARGELL IN ACT "C
718 CHARLIE HOUGH "B
720 GREG LUZINSKI "C
721 GREG LUZINSKI IN ACT "C
722 JERRY MARTIN "B
724 DAVE ROSELLO "B
725 AMOS OTIS "A"
730 GARY CARTER "A"
735 RUDY MAY "C
737 REGGIE CLEVELAND "B
738 DAVE ENGLE "B
739 JOEY MCLAUGHLIN "A"
740 DAVE LOPES "A"
741 DAVE LOPES IN ACT "C
742 DICK DRAGO "C
743 JOHN STEARNS "B
745 BAKE MCBRIDE "C
747 JOHN LOWENSTEIN "B
748 MARC HILL "B
751 RICK HONEYCUTT "B
753 TOM BROOKENS "A"
754 JOE MORGAN "A"
757 TOM UNDERWOOD "B
760 BILL BUCKNER "C
761 DAVE SMITH "B
764 STEVE SWISHER "B
765 GORMAN THOMAS "A"
767 ROY SMALLEY "C
768 JERRY GARVIN "A"
769 RICHIE ZISK "A"
771 RICH GOSSAGE IN ACT "C
775 BOB FORSCH "A"
776 MARK BELANGER "C
777 TOM GRIFFIN "B
778 KEVIN HICKEY "A"
780 PETE ROSE "A"
781 PETE ROSE IN ACT "A"
782 FRANK TAVERAS "A"
784 MILT WILCOX "C
788 WOODIE FRYMAN "A"
790 LARRY GURA "A"
792 FRANK TANANA "C
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  #24  
Old 01-24-2011, 11:06 AM
ALR-bishop ALR-bishop is online now
Al Richter
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Default Doug

Doug--I have the 396 "base" set and agree with your list. I had thought it was Zenithium who originally pointed out to me that the SCD Standard Catalog originally incorrectly listed the 301 Action Jackson in the set. That was changed in later editions.

I never paid much attention to whether the cards in the set were A, B or C sheet cards. Zenithium at one point took the view that the C cards were the scarcest, then Bs, then As. Later he took the view Bs were almost as tough as Cs. In collecting the set I definitely found that in general the Cs and Bs were tougher than As, but never did much checking on whether a card was properly identified from the claimed sheet.

I got most of mine from 4 sellers, 2 in NY and 2 in Michigan. I believe the Bs and Cs mostly surfaced in Michigan and the As in NY....in packs. Some cards seem tougher to find totally blackless than others, maybe a factor of their location on a sheet. One that comes to mind is Stanley, but there were a couple of others that you had to look carefully at to be sure there was no hint of a gray autograph. I have some duplicate cards in which the signatures, which are missing on the blackless, are gray rather than black. I do not know if the set can be completed in "gray".

Zenithium now lists a "master" set at 400. He came up with 4 blackless cards that had minor print difference , for example a red spot on the cap of Forsch. I have one of his "variations" to the set, and pointed out that in putting the set together I have found other print flaws in some of my blackless cards, but he was convinced the 4 he had found were "neccessary" if you wanted a master set. I do not know if anyone has his master set. I have settled for the base set, plus one

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 01-24-2011 at 11:08 AM.
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  #25  
Old 01-24-2011, 01:56 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
Doug Goodman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop View Post
Zenithium now lists a "master" set at 400. He came up with 4 blackless cards that had minor print difference , for example a red spot on the cap of Forsch. I have one of his "variations" to the set, and pointed out that in putting the set together I have found other print flaws in some of my blackless cards, but he was convinced the 4 he had found were "neccessary" if you wanted a master set. I do not know if anyone has his master set. I have settled for the base set, plus one
I do not agree that the 4 "Zenithum variations" are in fact actual variations. If we treated such things as variations, than (as an example) the "master" Topps 1952 set would have 16,512 cards including the 37 Mantle "variations".

I consider the blackless set to be complete at 396 which means that my 1982 "master" set will be complete at 1,193 cards.

Al - I agree that the A type cards are easier than the B and C type, which are both harder to find, but neither more than the other. I have found C type cards slightly harder to get only because the sellers tend to want more money for them, and I tend to be a bit on the cheap side.

I'm still slightly conflicted about this set, because by my general definition of a variation, the entire set qualifies as a printing error, not an actual variation, so even though I intend to complete the set, I have a real hard time spending money that would be better spent on 1953 Bowman black & white cards (my newest endeavor).

Doug
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  #26  
Old 01-24-2011, 02:10 PM
novakjr novakjr is offline
David Nova.kovich Jr.
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While we're calling out minor variations. The '89 Donruss manster set must be around 2600 cards, with there being 4 various (*) and (.) combinations for each card, with the exception of the Diamond Kings and Checklists. Although, I'm not sure if every card has all 4, or if some of them only have 2. I have 3 of the 4 Griffey's, and 2 each of Schilling, Biggio and Sheffield. I haven't really looked for them though, just happened to have them, and honestly didn't check any of my other cards.

Last edited by novakjr; 01-24-2011 at 02:12 PM.
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  #27  
Old 01-24-2011, 02:54 PM
ALR-bishop ALR-bishop is online now
Al Richter
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Default Varianationitis

Doug---you have this. I recognize the symptoms

But since I have the 2 52 Mantle, Thonpson and Robinson variations...I am in favor of those :-)) ...and they are not in my mind print defects

David---you should start a new thread. Anyone interested in this set and it's huge amount of variations is not likely to see this...also you apparently have what Doug has.....and me

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 01-24-2011 at 02:59 PM.
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  #28  
Old 01-24-2011, 03:13 PM
novakjr novakjr is offline
David Nova.kovich Jr.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop View Post
Doug---you have this. I recognize the symptoms

But since I have the 2 52 Mantle, Thonpson and Robinson variations...I am in favor of those :-)) ...and they are not in my mind print defects

David---you should start a new thread. Anyone interested in this set and it's huge amount of variations is not likely to see this...also you apparently have what Doug has.....and me
Trust me, I have no interest in the '89 Donruss set. I was just busting a little balls. However, I wouldn't mind tracking down the 4th Griffey just to have all 4. Problem is, I can never remember which 3 I have, and I'm too lazy to dig 'em out.
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  #29  
Old 01-25-2011, 01:31 AM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
Doug Goodman
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Al started his 52 set a bit earlier than I did. I'm confident that I am one of few people with both Mantles on my want list. And I'll bet he's one of few with both in his collection.

I only have a mild case of variationitis, if I had a full blown case I would consider print dots and slight color differences to be variations, too.

It's that damned big book of cards, once they're listed, I pretty much have to have them. Even the Herrera, I suppose.

Doug
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  #30  
Old 01-25-2011, 07:01 AM
ALR-bishop ALR-bishop is online now
Al Richter
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Default Listed Variations

Doug---I agree that if it is listed in SCD or Beckett I pretty much have to have it....and that includes print defects such as the Herrer, Bakep and the 3d Sullivan. Often the Registry ends up listing stuff listed in one or both of those, and even though I am not a graded collector, a listing there adds a lot of competition for a card.

Beyond listed stuff I do collect what I consider unlisted variations and more striking or unique print defects.

I did not mean to label you as a fanatic . You are one of the most knowledgeable collectors about these darn things I know and I always enjoy and respect your input in this area
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  #31  
Old 01-25-2011, 12:24 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
Doug Goodman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop View Post
I did not mean to label you as a fanatic . You are one of the most knowledgeable collectors about these darn things I know and I always enjoy and respect your input in this area
Laughing out loud. I'm a fanatic, no question. The first step towards treatment is acknowledging the illness.
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