Evidence of Trimming

[Johnny T]

Just got the email we all love to get when we send our cards for grading. "Your grades are available for viewing". Unfortunately, it always seems that there is at least one grade that disappoints. I just bought a collection of 40 and 41 Play Ball cards from a friend who is 90 years old who bought these cards when he was 8 and 9 years old and has kept them in a shoebox since. I sent the attached DiMaggio for grading. Wasn't expecting much in a grade...maybe a 1.5 but it came back as "evidence of trimming". I know the provenance of the collection. One owner before me. I know I didn't alter the card and the my friend I'm certain, has no idea what trimming is or would even consider such an act. I immediately upon receiving the email wrote to the one person I had as a contact at the grader (yet unnamed...not sure I'm allowed), and told them the provenance of the card and to please pull it before sending and have another grader give it one more look. No dice. So disappointing that we have no recourse other than to crack and resend, but that just adds to expense and has no guarantees of a change in grade. Couldn't even get an explanation of where the "trimming" is. Just venting I guess, but their pure power over us is very frustrating to say the least. Do any of you see where trimming could be??? Thanks for reading and thank you for any comments or shared stories in advance. JT

[Casey2296]

I've had SGC do that to several of my submissions. I'm not sure if they measure the card and if it sizes a bit different they just call it trimming instead of looking at the edges with the knowledge that some pre-war cards might vary a little bit in size. It's frustrating for sure, and I see no signs of trimming on your card.

[Johnny T]

It was SGC...that explanation makes sense but bad form if correct on SGC's part. They are definitely my favorite grader...nicest slab, presentation, and very efficient. Always less than a month from the time I send till I receive back...this one hurt a bit though.

[jcmtiger]

I agree with Casey, not trimmed. Just narrower on one side. Nice card. Joe

[ALBB]

I would crack and re-grade

[rand1com]

What are the exact measurements? I doubt it gets a grade if resubmitted. They have reasons for determining trimming and on this card which has good value even in a lower grade, they would have had more than one grader look at the card or probably a senior grader reviewed it and agreed.

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by Johnny T

So disappointing that we have no recourse other than to crack and resend

I understand your frustrations. That card does not appear trimmed. However, could you imagine the added grading expenses and turnaround times if the TPGs implemented an appellate process?

Unless the grade is a 10, every Tom, Dick, and Harry would request a second review and claim their card was wrongfully graded. Just go to the b/s/t section and count how many “looks much better” and “under graded” comments you see in the for sell postings.

[BobC]

Why not try it at CSG or BVG and see what they say? PSA would take too long, and cost a lot more than CSG.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

I understand your frustrations. That card does not appear trimmed. However, could you imagine the added grading expenses and turnaround times if the TPGs implemented an appellate process?

Unless the grade is a 10, every Tom, Dick, and Harry would request a second review and claim their card was wrongfully graded. Just go to the b/s/t section and count how many “looks much better” and “under graded” comments you see in the for sell postings.

Here's a thought, for higher end cards like this with the increased fee of $85 the grader can put notes in the system on how he arrived at his findings, would only take two or three sentences. Once the notes are in the system a client could pay an additional fee of say $15 to access the notes. It would at least give the client an idea of what the grader was thinking and his reasoning. Currently the only answer you can get is "our graders are all highly trained and consistent across the board". I think there can be a better system than that, oh, and fire up the registry please.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

I understand your frustrations. That card does not appear trimmed. However, could you imagine the added grading expenses and turnaround times if the TPGs implemented an appellate process?

Unless the grade is a 10, every Tom, Dick, and Harry would request a second review and claim their card was wrongfully graded. Just go to the b/s/t section and count how many “looks much better” and “under graded” comments you see in the for sell postings.

There is a major difference between varying numeric grades and a finding that a card has been altered. I would expect a second set of eyes--and maybe there was one here--when a card I submit gets an altered finding.

I assume you have only seen the online results. It may be that when you receive the card back in hand the note will state where they believe the trimming occurred. I recall years ago receiving one on a '61 Topps Ford A.S. -- just a handwritten "along top edge". That cannot possibly take much time and effort on the grader's part. For the money they charge, especially when it's tiered upward for more expensive cards, that's the least they can and should do.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BobC

Why not try it at CSG or BVG and see what they say? PSA would take too long, and cost a lot more than CSG.

This idea that PSA is still taking forever isn't accurate. What's taking forever is the ancient bulk orders. Everything being submitted today is coming back in a timely fashion.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Nice card. It’ll look great in an SGC A holder. Potential buyers will judge for themselves knowing SGC has various reasons for reaching that conclusion, such as minimum size, etc.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

This idea that PSA is still taking forever isn't accurate. What's taking forever is the ancient bulk orders. Everything being submitted today is coming back in a timely fashion.

Yes, but isn't it at a much greater cost than the other TPGs to get a graded card back fairly quickly from PSA? That is what I meant by the comment. I'm assuming it will likely take a lot longer for PSA to look at and return the card, compared to how long the turnaround would be from CSG or BVG, at a somewhat comparable price. Assuming you can even get PSA to look at it for a price similar to what CSG or BVG would charge.

I don't send cards in to get graded by TPGs myself. I'm just going off what I've heard and seen on this forum from others. If it has recently changed and PSA is now getting cards back comparable to other TPG's turnaround times, at a comparable cost, that is great news for those looking to use PSA services.

[Harliduck]

I've had the exact same thing happen to me this past month. I bought a lot of 55 Bowman off the guy who opened them in packs back in 55. I posted here on net54 this purchase a year ago as it was a fun buy...the original owner wrote the numbers in ink on the front of most of the cards. I submitted the Mantle and the Mays just to get them slabbed (love the SGC look for 50s cards) and honestly, just like you, really didn't care about the grade. Plus the cards aren't going anywhere.

Both came back "Evidence of Trimming" and received an A. Whats funny, anyone who has ever seen a stack of 55 Bowmans know they were cut horribly...no two cards are the same size anyways! I had no idea how they would grade with ink, didn't care and an A would have been fine...but trimming? No way...

[npa589]

Addressing Aquarius and BobC --- this is an internal discussion I have been having ad nauseum. To me - this is what the decision has boiled down to, and honestly - after much deliberation - I still don't know the best answer. Classic Pros/Cons list:

PSA Pros: 1. Irrefutably sell for more in nearly every category of sports or collector cards. At times SGC can match them in vintage, but overall - its irrefutable.
2. I believe currently they are more accurately grading cards from every era.

PSA Cons: 1. Their fees are exorbitant, and price out a lot of cards with regard to ROI in the slabbing. Their fees start at $50/card and it will be 3 months or so before you get those back. The next tier is $100/card for 1 month, and $150/card for 2 weeks.

SGC Pros: 1. Fees are more reasonable and they have been great about turnaround time. 2. Seems that if you have a card valued less than $1000, their $30/card version is probably the way to go, unless waiting for 3 months is okay.

SGC Cons: 1. I feel that their grading is been pretty horrible recently. This isn't just about sour grapes over undergraded cards, as I have tried to be unbiased when making observations. They have become unbelievably tough on vintage cards and seem to be grading them on the same curve as a 2020 Bowman Chrome Auto. Perhaps that's a different conversion - but vintage cards should not be graded on the same curve. I am not talking drastic differences here, but it's more than likely that vintage cards never had corners as sharp as a 2020 Bowman Chrome example.

What I think happened is this (no proof, this is just a hypothesis): to grow, SGC began hiring and training graders - most probably pretty young. I think they have a checklist for each era, and they follow it by the book.

I say all that to say that I've been hesitant on sending to SGC, because of how tough they've become - which does not immediately mean they're better. It's a clear deviation from their historical grading standards. Just do a search of "SGC t206 (60, 5)" on eBay. The goal, however, is to maximize value of your cards. If they already sell for less, and the assigned grades are consistently lower than PSA - well, that's not going to work.

Originally Posted by BobC

Yes, but isn't it at a much greater cost than the other TPGs to get a graded card back fairly quickly from PSA? That is what I meant by the comment. I'm assuming it will likely take a lot longer for PSA to look at and return the card, compared to how long the turnaround would be from CSG or BVG, at a somewhat comparable price. Assuming you can even get PSA to look at it for a price similar to what CSG or BVG would charge.

I don't send cards in to get graded by TPGs myself. I'm just going off what I've heard and seen on this forum from others. If it has recently changed and PSA is now getting cards back comparable to other TPG's turnaround times, at a comparable cost, that is great news for those looking to use PSA services.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BobC

Yes, but isn't it at a much greater cost than the other TPGs to get a graded card back fairly quickly from PSA? That is what I meant by the comment. I'm assuming it will likely take a lot longer for PSA to look at and return the card, compared to how long the turnaround would be from CSG or BVG, at a somewhat comparable price. Assuming you can even get PSA to look at it for a price similar to what CSG or BVG would charge.

I don't send cards in to get graded by TPGs myself. I'm just going off what I've heard and seen on this forum from others. If it has recently changed and PSA is now getting cards back comparable to other TPG's turnaround times, at a comparable cost, that is great news for those looking to use PSA services.

Wasn't trying to come at you specifically, I've just been seeing statements like that a lot. Right now for $50 (as opposed to $30) PSA will have your cards back in about 5 weeks in my experience. Note, I use both companies so this isn't about a preference.

[jingram058]

Reading through this thread is downright painful. I can't keep my big trap shut. Here is why I keep my valuable cards in a safe deposit box, raw, ungraded. I do not need or want someone's subjective and/or speculative opinion on the condition of my cards. That's not what these cards are about for me. It is not about the money. But to each his own. Beautiful 41 DiMaggio, by the way...

[Johnny T]

I love the idea of paying a little more to get a note with the thoughts of the grader as they review the cards. There is nothing worse than saying there is something wrong, but no thoughts are given as to what the issue is. It would be worth getting insight into what graders parameters and thoughts are so we don't make the same mistakes again. But what do we know....

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Wasn't trying to come at you specifically, I've just been seeing statements like that a lot. Right now for $50 (as opposed to $30) PSA will have your cards back in about 5 weeks in my experience. Note, I use both companies so this isn't about a preference.

Scott,

Didn't think you were, no problem. I just listen to what everyone else is saying about TPGs. Figured the OP could get another opinion faster AND cheaper by going to someone other than PSA. What some others are saying seems to follow that thinking. I'm just happy to learn. Thanks.

[Vintagedeputy]

I was sad when this came back with an A and evidence of trimming. It is off center and the right side looks odd, but since no one has any idea how these were issued, I'm not sure its exactly fair to say it was trimmed.

What's the difference between trimmed and hand cut?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

I was sad when this came back with an A and evidence of trimming. It is off center and the right side looks odd, but since no one has any idea how these were issued, I'm not sure its exactly fair to say it was trimmed.

What's the difference between trimmed and hand cut?

On this one, the right side top and bottom corners are more worn than the left. Maybe they thought it was freshened up a little? Very cool card regardless...
.

[Tabe]

On the DiMaggio, the bottom of the card looks narrower to me than the top half. Is that just a illusion?

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by Tabe

On the DiMaggio, the bottom of the card looks narrower to me than the top half. Is that just a illusion?

Quick and dirty - From just a check using JRuler (top Left to Right vs Bottom Left to right) on the image displayed - the top Measures 921 pixels and the bottom measures 917 pixels.

Surprised you could actually discern that just by looking - could be the scan???

[Snowman]

A lot of vintage cards were factory miscut. There is no shortage of cards that didn't come square, right from the pack. But the TPGs often flag these as "trimmed" despite no actual evidence that they indeed have been. At this point, it has become clear that they are all scared of some big class action law suit looming over the horizon and are trying to protect themselves against such an event.

[Yoda]

I, for one, would love to know how much training this hoard of new graders at SGC have received, particularly in our world of vintage pre-war, to allow such rapid turnaround time. And, for that matter, who is training them? Most likely, they are young and grew up in the modern card culture and know little about pre-war. I agree that currently they are applying standards not applicable to cards we collect. Their old 5 is now a 3.5 at best.
That nice '41 Playball of JD with impeccable provenance is clearly not trimmed.I fear they may be sacrificing everything for a speedy turnaround at the expense of their most important function: giving a fair grade to an honest card.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

Quick and dirty - From just a check using JRuler (top Left to Right vs Bottom Left to right) on the image displayed - the top Measures 921 pixels and the bottom measures 917 pixels.

Surprised you could actually discern that just by looking - could be the scan???

Even a blind squirrel...