Best way to build the monster?

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Posted By: Justin

Hi yall, I have recently started working on a lowgrade T206 set. I want to also work on collecting the backs, but my priority is hall of famers and rarities first.

Should I start with the big 4 first? Just kidding.

Actually I am collecting hall of famers first, and am up to about 20. I am just wondering from a cost perspective if this is the best way to go?

What about the rarities ie O'Hara, Demmitt to Elberbfeld, Kleinow et al. Would it make sense to try and get these too, is the market going to go up on them or what?

Any wisdom, stories or advice would be much appreciated.

thanks Justin

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Posted By: Rob

I think the most cost effective way is to start by trying to find "deals" first, no matter what the card is, since you still need 95% of the set. If you see a big low grade lot of commons for $10 a card, get it. If you see one of the rarities that usually sell for $2k going for $1k-$1200, then get it.

If you limit yourself to just HOFers or just a handful of rarities right now, you might see yourself paying full book price both now AND later. Instead, take any deal that comes along right now, and don't get picky till later.

We can really only speculate what will go up in the future (will low grade commons jump up in price? will low grade rare backs become more affordable? probably not but who knows).

thats how i'd start it BTW, you'll often see some good deals in the Buy/Sell/Trade area of this site so keep your eyes open there too.
good luck!
Rob

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Posted By: Ray Piskadlo

Hi Justin,

My advice is simply, set a goal and stick to it.

I started collecting the Monster back in August of 2003. I knew that it was going to take me years to complete given my teacher salary. So, I set a goal for myself of 50 cards a year... 10 years to complete it. This allowed me the flexibility to pick up commons when money was a little tighter or bigger cards when I had a little extra lying around.

As I finish up year four, I have 202 T206, including a lot of commons, but also two Cobbs, all the Matty's, and two Cy's. Plus, I've managed to get two Broadleaf, and a Lenox back as well. I'm right on target and I feel like I can actually complete the Monster.

There are pros and cons to collecting a specific group first, whether it be rarities, commons, or backs. My opinion is make sure the next 5-10 cards you get because they excite you. This will keep you interested in the set. Too many people give up on the Monster because they feel they spend too much things they don't want, but need.

Set the goal. Whether it be monetary or quantity. And have fun!!!

Best regards,
Ray Piskadlo

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

The truth is you'll need to establish a style or system that will keep you going. If you start with the big 4, that's no good for most folks. How long will it take to get enough cash set aside to buy one of those? It would be frustrating, you'd quit.

Maybe start out with shooting for at least one player from each major league team. There are about 390 different players in T206 (I forget the actual number), you could shoot for at least one card of each player, first. Or go for all of the major leaguers, I think there are 389 of those. 134 minor leaguers... I recall that after I had a hundred or so, I focused on getting the southern leaguers. Once I got all of those, I then got all of the minor leaguers. Then I tried for at least one of each player. Today I lack a dozen cards...

So you need a style that you can sustain.

The idea of picking up bargains or groups is a sound one. It takes a bit of discipline to buy a 12 card group, especially if you already have 3 or 4 of them. But usually, you can buy 12 then sell the less desirable of your 4 duplicates, individually, and you don't end up with much money at all in the ones you kept.

So develop a plan, and be flexible enough to buy a bunch or a bargain, if one comes along. It is a journey, 524 steps, take a few at a time, be content to get half a dozen steps away and admire the view from there...

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Posted By: peter chao

Frank,

I like the last part of what you said, after you collect a 1/2 dozen or so enjoy what you have collected. After all, with cards it's important to enjoy the journey.

As stated above, it's important to buy the bargains because they don't come along that often at that price.

However, also buy the big ticket items when you have the funds, because it is unlikely that they will be less expensive in the future.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Brett

Hey Justin, I still have the low grade t206 Young throwing, Mathewson portrait and some commons if you're still interested

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Posted By: barry arnold

Welcome to this great land of 206s.
You've already received much sound advice.
I would add a couple of thoughts that helped me stay happily afloat all the
way to 511 different T206s as of today.
First, singlemindedness was very important to the 'journey'---i like the word,too. There was a point that I realized what I loved the most(206s!) and sold
everything except for the 206s and bought only 206s from that point onward.
I wish that this singlemindedness had occurred a wee bit earlier---sort of
like when my dissertation advisor used the word with me while I was still writing 2 years after my comprehensive exams were completed.
Secondly, I found that deciding how much I was willing to pay for individual cards along the way produced some 'collecting maturity' in me. Once I decided on a figure-- that was that-- and it helped me stay happily solvent all along the way. This sort of judgment is particularly necessary with temptation abounding.
With these somewhat dictatorial principles(yes, i'm still an anti-establishment prof), I have had the time of my life in this collecting arena.
And don't forget that you will have some mighty fine colleagues to help you
along the way. They are indeed the icing on the cake.

The Monster will want you to quit. Never listen to it.

all the best,

Barry

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Posted By: David Bowden

I started by collecting team sets. I soon realized after a few teams, a major one and a few SL teams, that my collecting want overweighed my bank account and patience. My tastes are graded between 4-6. I've recently decided recently that I will collect the Monster as a revolving set. I will catalogue and photograph the team sets and then sell them to acquire others. This is probably the only way I will complete it, even if not all at the same time. It will keep me active in collecting and not entirely broke. My poor man's solution to "The Monster".

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

My message title is the name of an album with some of the the best cover art of all time (Google the title with Electric Frankenstein in the search), but my approach to T206 was haphazard to start. I went after a couple of backs first, then decided on a Superbas team set, quickly realizing I wanted the whole enchilada (minus the big six, although I am not abandoning the idea of trying for Demmitt and O'Hara).

I then, for the first time ever in my collecting life, decided to fully research the set and the scarcer cards before buying any more. I compiled a list of the top 50 toughies and have been working my way down it (I have, I think, the next five toughest cards after the big 6) methodically. I also am buying the Cobb cards (I have half of them) and am getting the big ticket items out of the way. I'll go after the Youngs and Mattys after I get all the Cobbs. I plan to buy a large lot or two of Southern Leaguers and Commons at some point in the next year or so and will just fill in from there. I'm having a lot of fun collecting this set so far.

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Posted By: robert a

Justin,

Here's my advice:

There are more T206s out there than any other vintage issue. Don't hurry because they'll always be another of the same card you're looking for unless it's a rare front/back combination.

I collected the hofers first, but it was when they were much cheaper for the cobbs and mattys, etc.

Larger groups of commons can still be found in lots. Go for those if you can.

I made the mistake of waiting to get cards like elberfield wa and dahlen, and smith which are way overrated.

There's PLENTY of these so-called "rare" variations out there. Rare is a relative term when it comes to T206. If there's two or three on ebay each week, I wouldn't consider them rare. Be patient.

Best of luck!

Robert

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Posted By: Marc S.

I'll probably always avoid building this set, unless I start with the Big 3/4 first (I'm not sure if I really include the Doyle...), so I probably would start with Wagner, then Plank, and then start working on the set. Because in my mind, at its heart, those two are going to be the deal killers one way or another, and I'm one of those anal collectors that would just be annoyed having a set missing those cards.

~ms

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Posted By: Anonymous

Robert, what do you mean overrated for the Elberfeld etc?

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Posted By: robert a

Hi Justin,

Let me start by saying that I have a lot of love for T206.

There are cards that are indeed very tough to find, but I think the list should stop after Wagner, Plank, and the four toughest variations (Magie, Doyle, Demmit, and O'Hara)

Compared to the rest of the set, Elberfield W, Dahlen, Smith Boston and Chicago, Kleinow, and some of the other team variations are tough, but in the grand scheme of things there are enough to go around, so don't get carried away with how much you pay. Just wait for the right opportunity.

Elberfield WA in particular has taken off in the last year. I don't think it's hard to find, but it's all relative.

Since we have so many collectors going after this set, the demand is greater.

Rob

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Posted By: steve yawitz

I can't offer too much novel advice as there's plenty of great suggestions here already: looking out for bulk deals, establishing a price/condition range and being patient with the overwhelming majority of the cards - for T206's are always readily available.

But I do want to add that the beauty of collecting T206's is that there's a very good chance that your interest in the set will remain high. I'm sure some prewar collectors don't find the set terribly compelling because of the design or ubiquity of the cards, but I'm equally sure that most who start dabbling in the set end up getting hooked.

Since I've been collecting the set, I've assembled, broken up and sold off several other sets; started and given up on still others; and changed my general collecting focus and style too many times to remember. But T206's have been the one constant for the last few years. And I suspect they will be for as long as I'm a collector.

I certainly go through phases. Sometimes I'm simply adding a lot of common bulk to my set. Other times I'm focusing on my favorite tougher backs or looking out for St. Louis front/back combos I don't have yet. Or sometimes I'm just saving up for a major HoFer or true rarity. That one can approach T206's in so many ways along with the fact that there's a great - and still growing - body of knowledge about the set makes the Monster what it is.

http://imageevent.com/yawie99

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Fill in the empty slot, whenever you get the opportunity with whatever the card. ..... Let the set Happen.

Joe P.

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Posted By: Anonymous

All this advice has been great. I love the color and the selection, and it depicts my favorite era of baseball. If only if had a Joe Jackson.

Any reason why the Magie and the Doyle are considered part of the set, if they are error cards? Given that the Toront error, and some of the printing errors, ie Sweeney aren't.

Just curious?

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Posted By: Anonymous

Anybody?

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Posted By: Scott T

There are a number of ways to collect this set, but it really comes down to your own desires. Some people would rather have just a few high end cards. As for me, my low grade SGC T206 collection is at 95% completion. (The highest graded card I have is a "5"...and most are "1's", "2's", abd "3's")

My suggestions/questions/criteria would be:

1) What is your budget?

2) Where to start? (HOFers/rare cards or common/minor leaguers?)

3) Raw or slabbed? (...and what condition requirements do you have?)

4) Time frame?

There is no wrong way to collect the T206 set, unless you go into it thinking you will complete all 524 cards easily.

Scott

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Posted By: MVSNYC

well said scott...

i have been collecting the monster for 15 years...i've owned almost ALL of it at one point or another (meaning i've owned almost every card at some point)...i've had as many as 300 at once, and as little as 6. the beautiful thing about the monster, is that you can collect her so many different ways. i've owned PSA 1's...i've also owned PSA 9's...

my advice: start with what really appeals to you (rare backs, HOFers, SLers, portrait cards, NY Giants, etc)...

then, as Joe P. said..."let the set happen"...fill in holes when you can.

you might also want to grab some of the tuffer variations first, then "back-into" the set...

so many different ways to collect her.

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Posted By: Justin

Sorry, I was actually asking why the Doyle, and the Magie are considered part of the set, as opposed to the Toront variation, and the Sweeney missing the B, which are considered variations?

thanks Justin

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Posted By: barrysloate

The Doyle and the Magie are variations that were corrected with second print runs.

The Toront and Sweeney variations are just glitches- a piece of dirt may have gotten into the plate causing the Toront error, and the Sweeney is missing the red color pass. These are not corrected errors.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Slow Joe Doyle was never corrected.
They just got rid of the Nat'l.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

A typesetter that misspelled the Magee name, (Magie)... that was corrected to Magee.

Another typesetter that confused Joe Doyle with Larry Doyle of the NY Giants, and gave Slow Joe the wrong League designation.
The word Nat'l was erased, but it was never corrected on the Slow Joe card to NY Amer. ... an error of omission.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Yes, but the Doyle "Nat'l" and the Doyle "No Nat'l" are separate print runs.

Cards such as Toront are nothing more than grease or some foreign object getting into the grooves of the printing plate.

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Posted By: Justin

Why would there be so few Doyle Nat'l? At least compared to the Magie, Wagner and Plank?

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Magie and Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'l are design errors. ATC made a conscious, erroneous decision to spell Magee "Magie" and identify Joe Doyle to the Giants. It later realized these errors and corrected them.

Mitchell "Toront", Sweeney "No B" etc. are print errors. These errors did not result from design choices made by ATC but rather flaws in the manufacturing process.

That's why the former are so much more interesting in my mind.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

My point being that the only unbalanced looking card in the whole T206 set, the Slow Joe card, with no league designation, was blanked out in the league designation area, but was never corrected for that run.
They caught the error very fast, but for whatever the reason, I can't figure out why they never corrected it, like the Magie error, with an Amer league .. designation.
Technically speaking, there are really two errors with that particular card.
One - a committed league designation error by the typesetter.
Two - an error of omission by the typesetter.

The human errors are what make the two cards a variation.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Is by making you a DIGGER.
Asking questions is great, but digging and research gets you into the FUN & JOY of collecting............

Brain picker, or researcher, I'll let you decide.....

Go to the POST Search of this forum, and enter Slow Joe Doyle.
You'll come across every discussion about that card.
If you're really interested in getting to know the territory, that should help you. ... otherwise, brain pick away.

Joe P.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

It would be easier to remove type than to correct type. And that is most likely why Doyle wasn't corrected.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Back around 1944, I got to work with one of those old printing monsters.

It is easier to remove type, than to reset a corrected version. ... it only takes minutes to correct.

We mustn't forget, that a typesetter caught the Magie error, and then made the correction. ... we're talking about changing the type of the letter (i), to a letter (e).

How much more time is required to change (Nat'l) to (Amer)?

One typesetter took the time to do it, and the other one didn't.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I think adding type is easy enough with Linotype, but I don't think that is how the type got on those white border lithographed baseball cards. I may well be wrong about that...

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I agree with Marc--start with the Big 4--and move down from there. Would also focus on either SGC or PSA cards and stay away from ungraded which may be altered. Probably good to have Kevin look at your cards before buying them if you are going high grade.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Regardless of how much time it would take, the Magie error was re set and corrected.

Having worked with an old printing press in 1944, which was probably from the time of 1909, (only 35 years removed) re setting type, really didn't take that long.

They did it for the Magie ... they could have done it for the Doyle. ..... they didn't.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

And I don't think it was a typesetting matter. I think it was a matter of plate correcting. So it was a big deal. And after fooling with it with Magee they quit doing it.

Brown Clancy Clark Covaleski Delehanty Donohue Doolin Goode Hannifan Kruger Lentz Mullen Myers Nichols Pfeiester Puttman Willetts

Their cards weren't easily corrected. Those cards weren't corrected at all. They remained incorrectly spelled as above.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Please explain the process............

What you are failing to grasp, is the fact that we are talking about two errors that were CAUGHT, and the different approach to each.

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Posted By: Mark Ahrens

Hey All,

I am new to the board and recently caught the T206 bug...I am starting by collecting all the Washington Senators cards and then will move on to some others, HOFers, or...Tinker to Evers to Chance for example...

Anyway, if I pick up ungraded cards, How do I submit them to PSA for grading..by joining that organization?

Thanks,

Mark

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Posted By: T206Collector

There's only one way to eat an elephant: one bite at a time.

I got through 520, but then traded most of those to get the Plank and Magie.

Now I am concentrating on putting together as many autographed T206 cards I can get my hands on. As I mentioned in a different thread, my growing collection of autographed T206 cards has been very surprising to me for at least two reasons. First, I am surprised that it is even growing at all because they're so hard to find. But second, once you've held an autographed T206 card of a player, it outshines exponentially the experience of holding that player's non-autographed card. Because it is just an amazing experience for me, I now find it hard to get ramped up for non-autogrpahed T206 cards -- now that was very surprising to me.

I'm sure I'll hit a brick wall on the autographed T206 front -- they just ain't readily available -- but this is the chase with which I am entirely consumed at the moment.

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Posted By: peter chao

Tell us when you obtain an autographed T206 Cobb. That's going to cost some big money.

Peter C.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...I know they're out there -- indeed there are at least 5 out there!

This one sold for $3,800.00 in 2002. (But a Cobb-autographed T205 went for over $10K in April Mastro, I believe)



"Rare 1909-11 T-206 Ty Cobb autographed card. Green portrait variation signed on front in black fountain pen. Card is well centered with some light creasing on front and has several abrasions on its' Sw. Caporal back. Signature is clear and legible rating 7 out of 10. Originally discovered with an estate collection of T-206 cards including (5) signed Ty Cobb cards and the original envelope of Cobb's in which they were mailed. Includes LOA from James Spence PSA/DNA: Card: GD-VG (Due to back abrasions), Signature: EX-EX/MT ($3,000.00-$3,500.00)

Now, Matty -- phew -- that's a toughie!

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Posted By: peter chao

I would assume Matty would be tough because he was pretty young when he passed away.

Peter C.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...Powers, who died on Opening Day 1909.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Actually he died about a couple weeks later.

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Posted By: peter chao

T206,

Since your collecting an autographed set, maybe you can answer this question. Nowadays athletes are swamped with autograph requests on all types of surfaces, back in 1909 how common were autograph requests, did people care that much back then.

Peter C.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...he died a couple of weeks later; but I'm sure he wasn't signing much after the injury!

I don't really know nor have I researched the autograph collecting habits of early 20th Century baseball fans. But it appears that in the 1960's and later the practice of sending cards and other items by mail to ballplayers grew exponentially. So you have a few cards signed contemporaneously by the players -- and a few more just after retirement -- but most of them were signed in the 1960's and later.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Can't help but think back to 1990............

Back to a comic book, and baseball card shop called Fantasia....
Owned and operated by a guy called Danny Dupchek, AKA Dr Koos.

At first, I didn't know him as Dr Koos, and on my first visit to his shop, I recall looking at his display case, specifically, his T206 cards, a few of them were autographed.

If you don't know who Dr Koos is, I recommend that you use the POST Search.

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Posted By: T206Collector

I know the story you are talking about. And for that reason and more just like it I generally dislike collecting autographs unless I'm the guy that obtained them. But when the provenance is good, that's a huge start. I happen to know where most of my cards have come from and I trust the source. Indeed, letters were written by the players returning their autographed cards to the original autograph seeker. In one case, I was able to get that letter for my collection. Not a lot of people forging old Fred Snodgrass' cards or letters -- I'm just not worried about that. Also, all of my autographs were obtained from players who died in the late 1960's or later, where the opportunity to sign was much much greater. I don't own any Addie Joss or Christy Mathewson autographed T206 cards.

Moreover, I use JSA/SGC for my autographed T206 authenticating. As long as the public has confidence in JSA/SGC, then my collection will be alright. In the event that JSA/SGC lose credibility in the market, then I may have to have my autographs certified by the next big thing.

But I will definitely concede that autograph collecting is fraught with much more peril than determining whether vintage cards are altered. That is one of the main reasons I do not collect autographs generally. But, again, when you own an autographed T206 card -- and you have every reason to believe that the signature is genuine -- it is a really special experience.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

I'll address this to T206collector.

I agree with about 99% of what you said, and please believe me when I say, I'm pulling for you.

The Godly status given to some on Mt Olympus, have been known to sometimes being unGodly falty. ... there are several examples of where the man made God has failed.

Provenance with a card, or auto is good, providing that the provenance has not been injected with some misinformation as the story is passed along from one collector to another.
Provenance can be tricky, unless you get it yourself.

My purpose in all this, is not to tell anyone that I flipped 1941 Play Ball cards as a ten year old kid in 1941, but to convey my good and bad experiences as a collector, from 1982 on.
My approach, and my continued enjoyment as a collector.

I know what you mean by ... "really special experience."
Whether it's a card, or an auto, I have had the pleasure of that experience.

During the course of my collecting journey, I've also come across some rude awakening periods. ... like the DR.Koos adventure. ... please note, that after I convinced the Koos that it would be wise to settle up, I tried to alert the business end of the hobby to the Dr's creations.

I discovered a couple of things.

Some in the business end, will prefer to do the Ostrich act.

Investors don't like hearing about bad news, it might affect their portfolio.

Collectors don't like it, correct it, and press on with their collecting enjoyment.

Maintain that attitude.
I'm pulling for you.

Joe Pelaez

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Posted By: peter chao

Trade all your shiny new stuff for the monster. You may think this method doesn't get you far, however, you may be pleasantly surprised. Here's how it works, nobody is going to trade you T206's directly for your shiny new stuff. People are simply not that foolish.

Here's what you do, you trade your new stuff for 1989 Upper Deck, '88 Score, and '87 Topps. Then you trade '89 Upper Deck, '88 Score, and '87 Topps for '71 Topps, '73 Topps, and '75 Topps. Are you starting to get the picture now? You just keep on trading newer stuff for older stuff until you get to the T206.

Along the way you keep some key sets. For instance it makes no sense to trade 1914 and 1915 Cracker Jacks for T206s. Never trade key sets for other key sets. When you get hold of a key set you hang on to it. It makes sense to trade '71 Topps, '73 Topps, and '75 Topps for '67 Topps.

Peter C.

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Posted By: I'm Excited for the National

'88 Score?

I'd hoard those.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

edited due to language.....(leon)