The Goodwin Plank and Magie are TRIMMED!

[danmckee]

3rd Party grading has hit an alltime low, these 2 cards are obviously hacked. You grading fanatics should see this nightmare and realize there is major problems with 3rd party grading.

I am shocked that the Scott I know would slab these 2 hack jobs.

What an embarrassment!


3rd party grading is a CANCER AND A JOKE!

Sincerely,

Dan Mckee

[FrankWakefield]

+1. Sincerely, too. Frank

[danmckee]

Frank my friend, I must say thank you as you are always the first one in to thank me on controversial subjects!

[FrankWakefield]

Dan, I think that anytime I'm with you on something you can safely assume that you're out on a limb and in the minority view. Many times right; but in the minority.

Someone posted that they perceived the Wagner card overgraded; I actually thought it to be a pretty good looking card. Were I to have megabucks dumped into my lap, that card would be more than good enough for me.

[danmckee]

Yes Frank!! the Wagner is a decent looking card and just a hair over graded and not nearly the biggest problem here. But... a hair over graded on a Wagner = major dollars!!!!

But yes, I agree with you

and yes, I am always in the minority

and yes, I am not always right but when I am, I am still attacked

and yes, I love my hobby and I hate, hate the garbage 3rd party grading which is an absolute comical joke!

[Gradedcardman]

Dan, is the rear of the Magie also showing some signs of paper loss or is it fading ?

By the way, look forward to seeing you in Baltimore. Enjoyed meeting you and purchasing some T206's for my collection from you in Chicago.

[danmckee]

Hi Adam, there will be some huge raw scans posted soon of these cards. I look forward to seeing you in Baltimore unless 1 of the death threats I have received from trashing the 3rd party grading comes through, when big money is involved and theft, people's lives are in danger.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thnk the Wagner has a nice clean overall appearance and looks OK in a 3 holder. I look forward to Dan's further posts on the Plank and Magee.

[atx840]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Hi Adam, there will be some huge raw scans posted soon of these cards.

Looking forward to these.

[bbsports]

When you get a chance, check out the bottom edge Joe Doyle SGC 84. I've never seen a bottom edge like that. It's very unique.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bbsports

When you get a chance, check out the bottom edge Joe Doyle SGC 84. I've never seen a bottom edge like that. It's very unique.

Could that just be that the card is slightly bowed so it looks curved in two dimensions?

[botn]

Originally Posted by danmckee

.

I am shocked that the Scott I know would slab these 2 hack jobs.

Do we know that it was Scott who actually graded these cards?

Greg

[Gradedcardman]

Well Dan, I am hopeful that we both make it to Baltimore !! I have learned over the last 12 months of active Net54 surfing to keep my cool. Quite a few on hear that like to push buttons. Amazing how easy that is over the net versus in person. Its like a costume party where no one knows you !!

[E93]

Originally Posted by bbsports

When you get a chance, check out the bottom edge Joe Doyle SGC 84. I've never seen a bottom edge like that. It's very unique.

Looks like a slight tilt cut. That it matches on top and bottom suggests it is not tampered with imho.
JimB

[Moonlight Graham]

Originally Posted by danmckee

3rd Party grading has hit an alltime low, these 2 cards are obviously hacked. You grading fanatics should see this nightmare and realize there is major problems with 3rd party grading.

I am shocked that the Scott I know would slab these 2 hack jobs.

What an embarrassment!

And to the double top secret chat board that has a field day on me where I can't defend myself, please tell me that the Piedmont 150 Plank that can only be hand cut and is blatantly hacked and the Magie that is blatantly hacked are properly graded??????????????????????????

3rd party grading is a CANCER AND A JOKE!

Sincerely,

Dan Mckee

dan' i'm not really sure why you call 3rd party grading a joke. every card i own is professionally graded. i try to buy the best condition of dead ball era stars that i can afford and i worry about counterfeits. i'm not educated enough to tell the difference myself. i know there are a lot of inconsistencies in the actual grades but do you think they actually slab fakes? i'm not trying to be a wise guy but i would like to hear your point of view on this-maybe i can get a different insight because i am brainwashed to have all cards graded-thanks and i look forward to your response!

[murcerfan]

profiteers and one eyed pirates...and secret handshakes and lies and drama and shit.

...........what a hobby.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Moonlight Graham

dan' i'm not really sure why you call 3rd party grading a joke. every card i own is professionally graded. i try to buy the best condition of dead ball era stars that i can afford and i worry about counterfeits. i'm not educated enough to tell the difference myself. i know there are a lot of inconsistencies in the actual grades but do you think they actually slab fakes? i'm not trying to be a wise guy but i would like to hear your point of view on this-maybe i can get a different insight because i am brainwashed to have all cards graded-thanks and i look forward to your response!

Well, the obvious answer -- one which really doesn't depend upon whether you agree with third-party grading or not -- is to educate yourself so that you can make your own determinations. Are fakes slabbed? Yes, but hopefully not often. Do they miss altered cards? Yes, sometimes that happens too. Do they misgrade cards? According to lots of sellers on ebay, that appears to happen frequently, although very few cards seem to be overgraded

I'm not a huge fan of third-party grading, although I've certainly had many cards graded. Obviously, it has some utility in terms of allowing a person who can't see the card in person to form an opinion about the card's characteristics. However, relying upon the opinion of someone else should be in addition to, not in lieu of, obtaining knowledge about the card in question. Slavish reliance upon any third-party grader to tell you what you may be buying is very much a mistake IMO.

[Vintagecatcher]

Dan and Frank,

You are not alone. A few of us have been around prior to this slabbing nightmare. Many of these new collectors think that if a card is graded by one of the top grading companies then the card must be original, and must not be altered. Many of these collectors have put a "blind faith" in these third party grading companies.

The only thing that third party grading/slabbing has done is drive up card prices for collectors. They created a false sense of security for naive collectors. Not only did they milk these collectors for slabbing fees...they then introduced "half grades" to continue the revenue stream further. Then they added their card registries to further inflate card prices as greedy collectors competed against one another.

This is just my humble opinion. I'm sure many will state how wonderful 3rd party grading has been for the hobby. I'm not buying that load of crap.

Patrick McMenemy

[Moonlight Graham]

Originally Posted by Vintagecatcher

Dan and Frank,

You are not alone. A few of us have been around prior to this slabbing nightmare. Many of these new collectors think that if a card is graded by one of the top grading companies then the card must be original, and must not be altered. Many of these collectors have put a "blind faith" in these third party grading companies.

The only thing that third party grading/slabbing has done is drive up card prices for collectors. They created a false sense of security for naive collectors. Not only did they milk these collectors for slabbing fees...they then introduced "half grades" to continue the revenue stream further. Then they added their card registries to further inflate card prices as greedy collectors competed against one another.

This is just my humble opinion. I'm sure many will state how wonderful 3rd party grading has been for the hobby. I'm not buying that load of crap.

Patrick McMenemy

patrick, i agree with you about "naive collectors" and "blind faith" because that describes me! but on the flip side, don't you guys think that old time collectors, and collections for that matter, now benefit from third party grading? if a collector has some really old and rare cards and wants to get rid of them, the auction house he chooses will most likely get them graded and authenticated if they feel the collection is worth big money. then the seller really benefits even if he didn't believe in having them graded himself. i'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you but just making a point of how a collector and future consignor could benefit from third party grading. eventually we probably will all part with our collections.

[CW]

Thread needs links. The Plank is a very intriguing card!

Plank.

Magie

It is interesting to note that both Goodwin and SGC knew they were poking a hornet's nest (so to speak) by giving this Plank a numerical grade. It seems they were very careful when grading it under such scrutiny from the hobby community.

As noted in the auction...

To safely assure you that the previously stated SGC grading process for this incredible T206 Plank heirloom is completely accurate, we are proud to post the following statement from BOTH SGC’s renowned president and head grader:



“When learning Bill Goodwin had a T206 Piedmont Plank, we clearly informed him that the card had to be hand-cut from a scrapper sheet and similar to the other handful that exist, would receive an “Authentic” assessment. Only ironclad circumstances relating to no evidence of trimming, whatsoever, could possibly enable us to encapsulate the card with a numerical grade. After scouring the card for what appeared to be an infinite amount of time, our unwavering opinion was to assign the current SGC 70/5.5 grade since not a shred of evidence relating to trimming exists under our finest magnification process. We stand by this card’s factory cut origin and vouch with 100% certainty that it was not hand-cut”.

€hû¢k Wölƒƒ

[Vintagecatcher]

Moonlight,

A seller would certainly benefit from having a collection graded when selling because people have "bought" into the myth that graded cards are what the grading companies say they are. That assumption can be and sometimes is a mistake. People are buying the grade and not the card.


Patrick

[Moonlight Graham]

Originally Posted by Vintagecatcher

Moonlight,

A seller would certainly benefit from having a collection graded when selling because people have "bought" into the myth that graded cards are what the grading companies say they are. That assumption can be and sometimes is a mistake. People are buying the grade and not the card.


Patrick

that's a good point patrick! unfortunately you described me again......most of the time

[alanu]

In any case that Plank is a beautiful looking card.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by murcerfan

profiteers and one eyed pirates...and secret handshakes and lies and drama and shit.

...........what a hobby.

and don't forget about the death threats too!!!!

[Runscott]

Well, if it's not a Plank that's 'new' to the hobby, which one is it? Hey Chris...

[prewarsports]

I am probably still stuck in the stone age of card grading before the 3rd party system, but that Wagner is a clean VG card no questions asked ALL DAY LONG before the third parties got heavily involved and started making rules out of thin air that are now considered as baseball card gospel (pre 2000). I have no problem with the grade on that one.

Rhys

[wonkaticket]

I was going to start a thread that focused on this topic this week as I have my doubts on the cards the Plank in particular. But since Dan has seen his way to open the board with his typical curmudgeon napalm, I figure here is as good a place as any to discuss my concerns and or reservations publicly about this.

Being totally transparent I will bid so this is no way an attempt to devalue anyone’s listing or give an edge etc. Also any bidding I do especially in regards to the Plank will be limited by my overall concerns unless they can be eliminated. Not sure it really matters but I wanted it out there nonetheless.

The Plank card I feel is trimmed I come to this conclusion for a couple of reasons. Many of which I will summarize here but have been discussed here in detail before.

First the shear lack of numbers on this card along with the fact that all known previous examples (3) are hand cut or in some shape or form very easily identifiable as special or non-factory production cards, leads me to question.



While it could be argued that limited numbers of something isn’t necessarily a negative it can be a something to make one question. Example there are very, very few Doyle’s but more than (4) are present. Also of the known Doyle examples 75% of that population isn’t in some shape or form altered or non-factory cut in obvious ways. So there is little doubt to the Doyle’s once circulation or at least factory produced and cut state. The same can’t be said for Plank Piedmont cards.

Second there’s the relative number of Plank cards in general. This includes all Planks. Below is a link to a good majority of Plank specimens that have been offered or sold since about 1997 or so.

http://imageevent.com/piojohn3/collectionpublic/planks

If you have a Plank I’m missing and would like to share that would be appreciated.

You will notice that only about 16 examples out of close to 50 are of the 150 subject’s variety this includes known Piedmonts. Take away the Piedmont cards and based on this sampling roughly one in 4 Planks is a 150 card. There is little doubt that the Sweet Caporal 150’s were in fact distributed and or factory cut. Once again the same can’t be said of Piedmont Planks.

In fact the numbers really tend to point to the card not being produced and circulated. For example as tough as the 150 Sweet Caporal cards may be in comparison to 350 versions they are still available in a sizable sampling even in my limited snapshot (link). They are also available for the most part unaltered minus the ones that have had work done later in life.

Then there’s the card itself see for yourselves but I’m seeing non-factory cut things happening here if you disagree that’s cool that’s why it’s here for discussion.



Finally there is the body and write up. I would like to say that this is in no way a personal attack on the person who does the write ups as I consider him a very nice person and respect him.

The listing just seems too try too hard to get across “I’m not trimmed”. It also seems to be a direct counter to every publicly known aversion/theories on Plank Piedmont backed cards. All of this I guess is par for the course but it just seems odd. Example the added endorsement from the President and Head Grader of SGC.

To safely assure you that the previously stated SGC grading process for this incredible T206 Plank heirloom is completely accurate, we are proud to post the following statement from BOTH SGC’s renowned president and head grader:

“When learning Bill Goodwin had a T206 Piedmont Plank, we clearly informed him that the card had to be hand-cut from a scrapper sheet and similar to the other handful that exist, would receive an “Authentic” assessment. Only ironclad circumstances relating to no evidence of trimming, whatsoever, could possibly enable us to encapsulate the card with a numerical grade. After scouring the card for what appeared to be an infinite amount of time, our unwavering opinion was to assign the current SGC 70/5.5 grade since not a shred of evidence relating to trimming exists under our finest magnification process. We stand by this card’s factory cut origin and vouch with 100% certainty that it was not hand-cut”.

One would assume that once SGC graded and encapsulated the card into their SGC 70 marked holder that was endorsement enough. That action alone states their professional opinion the card is unaltered.

Does this now mean that all SGC cards need additional letters from company executives to verify grades? SGC has graded some very amazing cards over the year’s significant cards in fact. I have never seen such an endorsement so why now? It may be my skepticism popping up but the Shakespeare line "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" comes to mind here.

Then there’s the other cards in the collection lots of authentic cards in that album and amazingly the one super amazing rule breaker card that most folks would assume is authentic breaks all rules.

Add in the personal super-duper triple examination of this card, personal endorsements from company executives then flip to Lot #6 and one has to wonder did they get it right? Is this the Plank Piedmont 150 rule breaker?



I’ll say that I have been a huge SGC supporter and fan still am. In a hobby that has been questioning their existence I have supported them so there is no axe to grind here on my part. I also have a lot of cards in their holders. I would also like to add I disagree with Dan not all grading is a joke. Grading has played a lot of roles in our hobby since its inception some very positive and some not so much. With the rapid growth of our beloved hobby I think third party grading companies are standing at a very unique point in their existence.

One that can ultimately relate to added value and ultimately strengthen our hobby, or a catalyst of doubt and concern for collectors. I think TPG’s can make the place better and have for the most part. However continued success and growth will come from accountability and consistency for all not select cards and or circumstances.

In conclusion I’m not saying that we will never see a Piedmont 150 Plank that isn’t hand cut anything is possible. But in my collecting opinion the above Plank is not that card based on the card itself added with what is currently known about Piedmont 150 Planks.

Cheers,

John

[RichR]

Wow your post John is why I love this board!

[FrankWakefield]

Good stuff, John. I wonder how many more letters SGC will be writing to accompany certain slabbed cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If I were interested in the card, I would be more impressed by provenance than by an assurance from the "renowned" president of SGC which, as Wonka points out, is essentially redundant. I wonder too if PSA would agree with the factory-cut assessment.

[ullmandds]

"I wonder too if PSA would agree with the factory-cut assessment. "

WOULD THIS REALLY MATTER? It would mean even less to me then SGC's "assessment!"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

"I wonder too if PSA would agree with the factory-cut assessment. "

WOULD THIS REALLY MATTER? It would mean even less to me then SGC's "assessment!"

As far as I know, there are no potential conflicts of interest at PSA (see prior posts on this subject), so their opinion would have some incremental value to me, yes.

[danmckee]

John Wonka, you should be a politician. You do things your way and I will do things mine. A have always called a spade a spade and a heart a heart. Remember, without the Dan Mckee "rough around the edges" "calls it like he sees it" "head first guns blazing attitude" you wouldn't look so prim and proper and non-bias and intelligent as you do.

But thanks for the kind words in the beginning of your post anyway.

To the gentlman that collects all of the graded cards and was very friendly above, I think Kenny answered you well. Yes there are fakes slabbed and I have posted a few here recently. PSA has slabbed color fro joys and there was a National Game reprint and fake postcards slabbed by SGC. To me this should NEVER happen. Missing alterations or being off a grade, yes, those things are understandable to me.

3rd party grading has been a help keeping fraud off of the internet, I will agree with that.

In closing: I want to state that this thread is my opinion from 42+ years of collecting.

[tedzan]

Thanks for bringing this Plank situation to our attention. No way, were any of the PIEDMONT Eddie Plank cards marketed in PIEDMONT packs.
Therefore, I don't think we will ever find an original PIEDMONT 150 Plank that was factory-cut.

For those who wonder if PSA would have "numerically" graded this Plank....recall that PSA graded Charlie Conlin's PIEDMONT Plank "Authentic-
Altered".
And, we do know the provenance of that T206 Plank.

Incidently, don't misconstrue, I do not favor PSA over SGC. Just making a point here.


TED Z

[CMIZ5290]

To my knowledge, i have never seen a plank with a pied 150 back graded numerically by psa.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by danmckee

3rd party grading has been a help keeping fraud off of the internet, I will agree with that.

That's it, really - all the rest has been completely about $$$. Once PSA started grading cards, Near-mint T206's began to magically come out of the woodwork. Where were they before? (they were bigger)

As technology improves, creating 21st century 1909 factory-cut edges will become easier and easier.

[E93]

It is possible that this was a legitimate factory cut. I am well aware of all the reasons people like my friend Wonka (Hi John) think it is not possible. But let me throw out a possible scenario.

We are reasonably certain at this point that Wagner and Plank (and a couple of others) were added at the end of the 150 series. A small number of those made their way into Sweet Cap packs. It is possible that they were printing Piedmont sheets with the intention to distribute them when they were notified of the need to stop the press to pull the Wagner. Maybe a very small number of those actually made it into pack resulting in only one surviving. Or maybe some were cut at the factory but never put into packs and an employee brought it home for his kids.

The point is that for me the three previously known examples (two obvious printer scraps and a hand cut card in the '80's) are too small of a sample to draw a definitive conclusion. I am not saying that it definitely happened in this way. I am just saying that something like this is possible. And IMHO, a look at the scan is insufficient for making a definitive determination on style of cut. By outward appearances, I think it people were not biased to assume it was not factory cut, no red light would be going off when seeing that card. It looks good.

And regardless of aptness of the slab, it is a spectacular card with one of four known Piedmont backs.
JimB

[danmckee]

Jim it is a truly amazing card! No question about that. The card is spectacular.

Your scenario seems possible to me, why not? I think that is a fair possibility.

I must say though that several people who also deal in graded cards looked at this Plank and immediately said trimmed. Some have no idea of the Piedmont 150 back history. And one runs a major auction house and his opinion is very well respected.

of course my opinion is trimmed but I can also respect your opinion of possibly not trimmed.

Thanks for participating here today, it is good to hear from you.

Now if you would kindly take a minute and look at the Green Cobb that is slabbed in the same auction, I would appreciate your thoughts on that card as well if you don't mind.

take care
dan

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

One would assume that once SGC graded and encapsulated the card into their SGC 70 marked holder that was endorsement enough. That action alone states their professional opinion the card is unaltered.

Does this now mean that all SGC cards need additional letters from company executives to verify grades? SGC has graded some very amazing cards over the year’s significant cards in fact. I have never seen such an endorsement so why now? It may be my skepticism popping up but the Shakespeare line "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" comes to mind here.

John

I really like your above assessment.

Glass half-full read: "We respect the opinions of you collectors, regarding the origins of Piedmont Planks, so we're going an extra mile on this one."

Glass half-empty read: "Yeah, everyone knows that the grading companies slab trimmed cards, but we didn't touch this one, and honestly - we really think it's legit."

[bosoxfan]

I know very little about the history of the Plank card. This will probably come across a little ignorant which is the case, but maybe from a different perspective.

Yes, sometimes a card will get by a TPG that has been trimmed, altered whatever.
Assuming, the grader at SCG knows the history of this Plank card, wouldn't they go out of their way to be absolutely, positively certain. To have unequivocal proof that the card is factory cut. And because of this 1 of a kind situation, feel it necessary put out a statement. Just sayin

Rich

[ullmandds]

personally...i'd take the opinion of this board on whether a card is altered...over any grader anyday of my life!!!!!

[bosoxfan]

I don't doubt that at all and you're probably right, but the grader, head grader in this case, is the only one to have had card in hand.
Do you think that some graders are inept or is it possible something else is going on?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bosoxfan

I know very little about the history of the Plank card. This will probably come across a little ignorant which is the case, but maybe from a different perspective.

Yes, sometimes a card will get by a TPG that has been trimmed, altered whatever.
Assuming, the grader at SCG knows the history of this Plank card, wouldn't they go out of their way to be absolutely, positively certain. To have unequivocal proof that the card is factory cut. And because of this 1 of a kind situation, feel it necessary put out a statement. Just sayin

Rich

What is unequivocal proof in this context? There are card doctors who certainly can mimic a factory cut, how can anyone say with 100 percent certainty it's original?

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's it, really - all the rest has been completely about $$$. Once PSA started grading cards, Near-mint T206's began to magically come out of the woodwork. Where were they before? (they were bigger)

As technology improves, creating 21st century 1909 factory-cut edges will become easier and easier.

I started thinking about the same thing. My brother and I started seeing more MINT T206 cards around 1998 or so. back then we had a large ungraded collection of T206 cards...well over 600. My brother had hundreds of cards graded by PSA and out of the hundreds of cards only 4 were graded beter than 6. So where did all the mint T cards come from ?? Where are they still coming from ? I want to know
there is a guy who lives in East Dayton who uses a laser to trim paper products he makes for the gaming industry. I have no doubt it could be used to precisely cut a card. Sometimes you can detect a slight evidence of burning on the paper he is cutting, but not all the time. his setup is all computerized and takes up a good part of his basement. ..it's expensive and impressive and he can make cuts to plastics, wood or paper that people just cant do accurately.

[bosoxfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What is unequivocal proof in this context? There are card doctors who certainly can mimic a factory cut, how can anyone say with 100 percent certainty it's original?

Again, I agree,

but if a card doctor can fool a grader who has the card under a microscope, how come he can't fool experienced collectors looking at a scan?

[steve B]

A laser cutter leaves a very different edge than a guillotine cutter. The difference should be obvious to someone who knows what they're looking at.

That being said, I've often wondered if the place I worked for would consent to an experiment of cuting a T206 on the cutter to see if the edges would pass grading. I don't have any that I'd be willing to destroy though and if it passed I'd destroy it for sure after documenting it enough.

I am curious what things aside from the front/back combo make people think it's trimmed? I don't see anything that seems obvious to me. A couple corners look slightly odd, a bit too sharp on one of the edges. But I have a few that I know aren't trimmed with the same sort of corner.

And the disclaimers
I'm not bidding on the card - it would be several times my lifetime expenditures on cards so far.

I'm ambivalent about TPG, there are some good things and some bad about it. I still look at the card if I'm buying.

Steve Birmingham

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What is unequivocal proof in this context? There are card doctors who certainly can mimic a factory cut, how can anyone say with 100 percent certainty it's original?

Theoretically the card could be factory cut, as JimB insightfully discusses. However, because of the likely ability of card doctors to imitate a factory cut, I think that in the absence of pedigree establishing that the card was in fact pulled from a Piedmont pack (or brought home by a Piedmont employee after the card was factory cut), I don't see how one could establish the requisite certainty to warrant a numerical grade. Going forward it will probably serve the grading companies well to know current hobby thinking when grading cards such as this that are not believed to have had a normal distribution. While I am only speculating as to what SGC knew when they graded this Plank, my guess is that had they known what has been revealed in this thread about Piedmont 150 Planks, they would not have given the card a numerical grade.

EDITED TO ADD that it will be interesting to see how the market prices this card. Will it sell for what an "authentic" would sell for, or will the slab dictate the price regardless of the correctness of the grade?

[ullmandds]

If any of the major grading companies aren't aware of the p150 plank/wagner phenomena...then they're not doing their job very well?!

[GasHouseGang]

I admit I don't even collect this set and I can't tell if this card is trimmed or not, but did anyone notice the variation on this card? Look at the back, there is an extra squiggle after the "e" in the word The. Take a look, none of the other Planks shown have it...

[atx840]

John, I couldn't find this one on your list, SC350. Auction