T210 Old Mill Jackson in REA Auction-New Owner's Perspective

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

I am the person who bought the T210 Old Mill Jackson at the REA auction. I have read with interest the various posts on the card. I thought it appropriate to offer my views as to why I feel the card is as originally issued. I also think it relevant to disclose that Robert Edward Auctions, in recognition that there was controversy expressed on this board and because they did not want me to be uncomfortable, offered me the opportunity after the close of the auction to rescind my bid with no financial penalty. An underbidder, also fully aware of the issues expressed on this board, was anxious to buy it. I, based on the research I had done, declined the offer and opted to buy the card. I am confident the card is exactly as originally issued.

My views are based in part on discussions with the owners of perhaps the four largest collections of T210s (who collectively either own or have inspected several thousand T210s) and the review of various scans of T210s I have examined. T210s are notorious for having significant deviations either larger or smaller from their published standard size. T210s in fact is one of perhaps only two 1910 era sets (the other being T212 Obaks) in which a significant percentage of the entire population of known cards is characterized by an imperfect manufacture cut. Even the photographic image portion of T210s is known to vary in size, thereby creating an illusion of either larger or smaller borders. There are many, many examples of cards of similar size to mine, covering not just Series 8 but the other series as well. At least one of the other of the handful-known T210 Jacksons in fact is undersized. There have been some posts taking the view that because the card is smaller than the other pictured Jackson, the card must have been trimmed. By this reasoning, every T or N card, which is smaller than the largest known copy of a particular card, must be trimmed. I think we all will agree that that is not the case; T and N cards are well known to exhibit considerable variation in size. Even the T206 Wagner card on exhibit at the Hall of Fame, which originated from the Halper collection, is oversized. Does that mean that every other Wagner which is of smaller size has been trimmed? Or that most Old Judges, because of the wildly varying size and cut of the issue, are trimmed? I think not. The wavy cut my card exhibits is, to be clear, very common to the issue, and not just in Series 8 but in the other series as well. I have been collecting for over forty years. I have seen many cards that were trimmed since they were originally issued. Upon close inspection of the Jackson card in the REA auction under high magnification, I am confident that the cut of the card dates back many years. Accordingly, the overwhelmingly usual reason for trimming, to increase the value of the card, would not exist here because such motivation did not exist many years ago. Also, even if it did exist, economic gain from trimming would occur only if the condition of the card was materially improved; my Jackson card hardly is a nr-mt/mt example and I don’t see how trimming would have materially bettered its presentation. The Jackson card did not even become particularly valuable until long after this card and the others with it were even discovered. I have spoken to the consignor of the card (with whom I was put in contact as a courtesy by REA), who is providing me very detailed and substantial documentation to corroborate his assertion that the card originated from a very specific estate sale in the 1980s, a sale other T210 collectors have confirmed took place, and has been in his possession since. He still has the balance of the collection and I am getting scans of these as well for additional documentation. This is an original collection, which has never been available in what is generally considered the organized hobby. I also know that when cards are machine-cut and the cutting blades have dulled, the borders of the resultant cards can have wavy cuts. I hardly think it likely that when T210s were being cut and inserted in cigarette packs, the tobacco company was concerned that customers of the Old Mill cigarettes would object to cards with subtly wavy borders and as a result purchase fewer cigarettes. For those who opine that perhaps an employee of the company took home a sheet and later cut it, or that a few years after issuance for some unknown reason the card was later cut down, yes, of course such occurrences are theoretically possible. However, the large numbers of T210s with identical imperfect cuts (comprising perhaps 25% or more of the known population of T210s) suggest that this is not a likely explanation. It is possible that cards were hand cut by Old Mill for issue, I suppose. Despite the number of cards in the set, T210 Old Mill is a rare and regionally issued set which had an extremely modest print run compared to the more common card issues of the era. A very small print run makes the possibility of a hand cut for a portion of the press run both practical and possible. One of the series of the T212 Obak run, for example, is known to be hand cut. To me, it is not a reasonable explanation that all of the imperfectly cut T210 cards in existence are the result of a renegade employee cutting up sheets at home for fun. If that were the case, how would cards with these cuts wind up in T210 collections everywhere, and how could so many exist relative to cards without wavy cuts? The employee would have to be bringing home a significant percentage of the entire press run of T210 cards in sheet form for cutting up. This would probably keep him pretty busy (probably too busy to work, statistically this would involve thousands of sheets), and he then would have had to have somehow distributed these cards to every T210 collection in the land. Sounds pretty implausible to me. Not to mention that one would think that if this were the case, then at least one uncut sheet of T210 would have survived. None are known.

In the end, we each have to have our own comfort level with what we collect. To those who know me, my tolerance for taking leaps of faith is extremely small and I form opinions based on extensive research, logic, and an assessment of what is most likely to have occurred based on all the known facts. I am very comfortable that the Jackson card I bought has not been altered since it left the factory. If it was hand cut, which is possible, then many other T210s were similarly hand cut, and such cutting therefore is standard to the issue. To me this does not in any way diminish the card. It is interesting to note that all but one of the T210 Old Mill collectors with whom I have spoken at length about this card (with a combined collecting experience of over 60 years, most of which involved collecting this issue) feel the Jackson card is unaltered and as issued. The other T210 collector has a policy of not expressing opinions until he has had an opportunity to see the card in person and out of the holder. He did say, though, based on what he has seen, that there is nothing about the card which leads him to believe that it is not as issued. My research has led me to the very same conclusion. I can certainly understand how one, with very limited or no experience with T210s, but very knowledgeable about other cards, could misinterpret the nature of the Jackson card. That is what has happened here on this board, and I think it’s important to set the record straight. Thanks for reading. I enjoy the board and look forward to many more years of collecting.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Thanks for sharing. Congratulations on the acquisition. Most important is that you are comfortable with your decision and it sounds like you are.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Like said it is truly one of the top cards in our hobby and worth every penny and then some. All that matters is that you are happy with your very amazing card, but everyone is entitled to there opinion. After all if we had complete documentation as to how, why and where every card came from then where would the fun be. You should be very proud of your purchase and I know I don't need to tell you that. Robert Edwards has proven to me ounce again to be one of the most up front and honest auction houses around and that is why I'm sure they will keep seeing record breaking prices for there items. Congrats ounce again.
Trevor

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Posted By: Bill Stone

You certainly didn't need to justify your purchase but I appreciated reading your analysis. You have made an exceptional acquisition and have every reason to be the proud owner !!!!!!!

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Posted By: barrysloate

I have a question- do you have any other rare items in your collection, or is this the first one?...Hi Corey, glad to see you finally joining the network54 community. Hope you continue to post and share with the board members other pieces from your truly astonishing collection; there's no turning back now.

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Posted By: Julie

hardly kerep myself from wanting (my policy with stuff I will never have).

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Posted By: dan mckee

Let's see.... Someone who researched with several old timers who have handled thousands of T210s or a pimple face young punk who thinks Joe Jackson is Reggie's grandfather. I think I am with Cory on this one. Many pre-war cards are different sizes and have rough cuts and are NOT trimmed! I love grading.

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Posted By: eric p.

corey, congradulations on winning the jackson!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Corey:

Welcome to the board!!

Have heard many good things about you from mutual friends.

Barry: Nice softball question.

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Posted By: JimB

Corey,
I think your analysis is on target. Regardless, that is an amazing card - one of the treasures of the hobby. Congratulations. It was worth every penny.
JimB

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Posted By: tbob

Corey- interesting comparison between the T210 and T212-1 sets with regard to hand cutting. I am curious if the Jackson were graded authentic because it is such a noteworthy and valuable card or if other T210s, especially in the 7th and 8th series, have been graded authentic also. I know for a fact SGC, PSA and GAI will NOT grade the T212-1 (1909) Obaks because of their cuts, much to the chagrin of those of us who have nice examples. I have had a large number of 1909s graded but nary a single "hand cut" specimen, not even as an "authentic" card, despite the fact the grading companies will grade Zeenuts which have the bottom of the frigging card (coupon) ripped off.

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Posted By: Scott

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

I am not aware of other T210s that have been graded authentic, although they certainly might be out there. I personally have never submitted a card to PSA or any other grading company for grading. Accordingly, I have no first-hand experience in how those companies operate. From what I have been told by people who are knowledgeable in PSA's ways, PSA will designate a card as authentic if in their view it exhibits evidence of trimming AND is significantly valuable. What to PSA crosses the threshold of being significantly valuable I haven't a clue. Some dealers/collectors I have discussed this issue with find this policy infuriating. They feel, and I tend to agree, that PSA should either apply the authentic designation to any card, regardless of its value, or apply it to none. In regard to my T210 Jackson, I can certainly understand how PSA would shy away from giving the card a numerical grade. I spent much time researching a very rare and poorly understood card set. For the fee PSA got for grading the card, I doubt they would spend hours and hours talking to T210 collectors, examining scans, etc. And even if they would, what would they have to gain by putting a grade on a such an expensive card unless they were 100% positive the subtly wavy cut was generated by the manufacturing process? Even a theoritical possibility only that the card was not as originally manufactured (which as I freely admit in my post cannot be 100% ruled out), would be enough for any prudent businessperson to avoid giving the card a numercial grade.

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Posted By: Scott

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Posted By: barrysloate

As much as the grading companies have become an easy target for collectors to take their frustrations out on, please keep in mind that all of us, no matter how long we have been in the hobby, learn something new every day. Corey is as advanced a collector as any of us and even he admitted that this whole experience taught him a great deal about a card issue (T210) that he knew little or nothing about. Likewise, if the grading services were smart, they would take the same high road, and after examining this Jackson and recognizing the idiosyncracies of certain series, understand that this is part of their own learning curve,too. The more experience PSA, SGC, et al. has in dealing with some of these more esoteric issues, the more accurate they will become in evaluating similar cards when they cross their desks in the future. They can not be expected to know everything, but they should absolutely be expected to add to their knowledge over time. That is a responsibility they should take very seriously.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The whole coupons thing really sets me off. The slabbers are so inconsistent in how they handle coupons. Zeenuts are routinely graded with no downgrade for lack of a coupon, yet SGC recently refused to grade a 1928 PCL Exhibit card with its coupon clipped. Now, what the difference is between a Zeenut with its coupon clipped for redemption and an Exhibit card with its coupon clipped for redemption that makes the former gradeable and latter not is not something anyone can explain to me.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

One starts with Z and the other starts with E.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Adam- The answer is probably lack of experience with the two issues and the absence of a policy of how they should be handled. Again, with experience they will realize that they need to be consistent one way or the other- either grade both or grade neither. It's building a reference "library" and making use of it as needed.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

It would be good to hear from a former employee of SGC or PSA - you would think that there is some turnover in that business, and that if they are truly hiring knowledgeable people, some of them would be card collectors.

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Posted By: barrysloate

There's no question in my mind there is turnover. Even though we may all love to handle baseball cards, I would say the job of grader is both boring and endlessly repetitive, not much different from entering information into a computer all day. I'm sure one's eyes are tired at the end of the day and burnout is probably a frequent occurence. While many of the top graders stay for extended periods I'd bet that many of the entry level people don't stay very long. And that may go a long way in explaining the various errors that are found on the labels. Think about grading cards eight hours a day five days a week for months and years on end and you can just imagine how the grader's mind starts to wander as he puts himself on automatic pilot. Not a job I would covet.

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Posted By: leon

First of all welcome to the board Corey. From what I understand you have one of the premier collections of quality vintage baseball cards around. I say quality because I am pretty sure you don't have a large quantity of cards. I do understand you collect other things too so I am sure that eats up some time and resources also. At any rate welcome to our forum as a participant instead of a lurker. It's about time Hopefully you will join in some discussions every now and then. As for the graders staying at grading companies question that is one reason I do like SGC. I know the top graders there and respect them. They have been there for several years and can down beer with the best of us (well that's just a side note plus). I certainly still question some of the grades and policies but overall they're the best I have found. I still find no rhyme nor reason for grading Zeenuts without coupons and not other series without coupons. I also still disagree with not grading several series of cards ie...Headin' Home, Fro-Joy etc...... Back to the topic of the T210 Jackson- it's a great card regardless if it was hand cut or not. A little short for my personal preference but then I have cards that others don't care for.....Buchner Gold Coin, E91, etc.....thanks again for joining in Corey........regards

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Posted By: Anonymous

Check out this link of a W572 Johnson PSA 4 "Hand Cut" designation on the slab.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31718&item=5193589090&rd=1

Ok I know that I said there is no difference between hand-cut and trimmed and I still believe that but apparently PSA doesn't. If I where the buyer of the T210 Jackson and did tons of research from the top T210 collectors to find out that my card was "hand cut" and not "trimmed" and then saw the W572 Johnson card I would want the same treatment given to my Jackson after I provided all my findings. I know the W572's where issued to be hand-cut but from the sounds of the current research 25% of the T210's produced where designed to be hand-cut as well, but just at the factory. So what's the difference?

Corey in no way is this a slam on your amazing card. It is truly a hobby treasure. The issue here is to get the hobby to start sharing it's information to the auction houses and grading services. After all they seem to be working together a lot but not communicating when it's necessary. I have three very high-end clients that I deal with and my job for them is to make sure they know what they are buying and the history of each and every item. Am I right 100% of the time, no way but I do my homework BEFORE they spend there money. I know this is not a perfect hobby but I just want people to be a little more up front with info when there trying to sell in our hobby big or small deals. I think REA is one of the greats in our hobby and has proven that time after time. REA and the T210 a side I hate to see people trying find buzz words to make an item sell better. I hate money and wish it was not such a factor in our great hobby!!!!!!! But if I or for that matter someone I knew spent over $50,000 on one item I would want the best case scenario every-time and would fight for that, which I do believe REA has done I just wish PSA would join the bandwagon. Do you think the card would have sold for the same if it was raw or in lets say a PSA 3 "hand cut" holder? Who knows and who cares? I guess we do!!!!!!

Sorry for the long post. I really need to take my depression meds.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I guess PSA was trying to indicate that the card was hand cut "from a strip of cards"??

If a card ONLY came from the factory in strips that were INTENDED to be hand cut by collectors... then I guess this is a tiny bit different than cards that came from the factory already cut.

Am I the only one who sees the subtle difference?

Or am I completely wrong and the original card is NOT from a strip of cards?

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Trevor-- If you hate money so much why do you continue to mention your three very high end clients?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Trevor: " ... 25% of the T210's produced where designed to be hand-cut as well, but just at the factory. So what's the difference?"

One man's opinion is that "hand cut at the factory" constitutes a manufacturing process variable.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Jay the reason I keep mentioning the high end clients is because I want to try and get the point out that there isn't uneducated collectors out there just pissing there money away. They are having to confide in people they can trust in the hobby because there are so many people trying to sell them bad material or over pricing every item they sell them. I have seen many great names in the hobby trying to sell and say an item was originally produced one way when in-fact it was not. By the way I do not get paid for my services Jay. The reward for me is to be able to get access and be involved with some of the greatest collectors ever.

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Posted By: leon

is that about 300 series 7 and/or 8 T210's were found together and were cut like this Jackson card (from the same group too). I don't think that equates to 25% of T210's. That is just what I heard......I have a lowly series 4 or 5 or something as my type from the set. Don't need more...unless I find a Stengel or Jackson in a pile of rubbish somewhere.. ... regards

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Trevor--That puts things in a completely different light.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Like I said before everyone is entitle to there opinions. That's what makes this world great. I do agree the term hand-cut is different than trimmed. I have learned another great lesson from this board. But now let me give you a couple hypotheticals. I find a uncut sheet of T206's lets say with a T206 wagner on it. Cut it down and bag there you have a NR-MT card. Then I just found a T206 Wagner that was obviously hand-cut from a "Printers Scrapp" What's the difference? One was cut with better tolls and more clean.

Yes I do understand that a Post cereal box card was meant to be cut and a 1960 Topps cards was not. One is hand-cut and the other is trimmed. I get it. What I don't get is people trying to say that T210 where hand cut on purpose and it is a known issue then why won't they grade as such? Yes I was proven corrected on the phrase of hand-cut and trimmed. I love to get this boards blood rising. It has been a long time seance I have posted constantly and now I can tell why. ATTACK! ATTACK! Someone with there own opinion. Abandon ship. Jay why did you have a problem with my statement of who I deal with? Sounds like you have a problem with me, I don't have one with you. What's up feel free to e-mail me privately. Not here!

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

When I use 25% as a rough approximation of T210 cards that exhibit a subtly wavy cut, that is based on a lot more than the T210s bought by the consignor in the estate sale. It is based on discussions with other T210 collectors and dealers who are familiar with the set and who own or have handled T210s with similiar characteristics. Regardless what the exact percentage turns out to be, I am comfortable that it is a significant percentage of T210s in the known population (going well beyond what this particular consignor has), indicating that such a cut is part of the original manufacturing process. One thing to keep in mind in evaluating whether the card is hand cut or machine cut is that the waviness of the borders is very subtle. To some it would only be apparent under magnification. My view is that it was probably machine cut. But again, the point is that machine cut or hand cut, it was cut as part of the original manufacturing process and as a result to me does not diminish the card.

In regard to the ebay card that is graded by PSA with a hand-cut designation, that is the first I've heard that PSA does such things. As I've said earlier, I've never submitted a card to any grading company; the focus of my collection is not graded cards. While I respect what the grading companies do, what matters to me is what I think of the card, not what a grading company thinks. I'm the guy who bought it and therefore has to be comfortable with it. If and when the time comes that I ever plan to sell it, then at that time it probably would make sense to explore if, with further documentation and information about the set, a grading company might give it such a (hand cut) numerical grade.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

That a boy!! Very well said Corey. Like I have said many times, My comments are not to take away from your amazing card but to see why are some people willing to slam PSA and say a card is not trimmed when obviously it is. They go and make up a very educated but not 100% sure guess that these cards must have come from the factory that way. The problem is not your Jackson the problem is people trying to hype high profile cards and find a reason there item is not what it appears to be. Especially when poor PSA finally gets it right. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. Please help to answer these questions.


1. What people are saying is that the T210 Jackson is "Hand Cut" not "Trimmed" Correct?

2. What I have learned from this board is that "Hand Cut" is a term used for cards that where issued for the purpose of collectors to cut them down. Correct?

3. From what I know a large group of T210's where found all the same size as the REA Jackson and with the same cut. Correct?


Yes other issues including my beloved N172's do have a lot of size differences like smaller 1887 compared to the later years. Yes I have seen larger 1887 cards and diamond cut cards as well, but I have never seen a wavy cut that I thought was factory. I know N172's are not the issue at hand but they are a great example of most typical and primitive card manufacturing.

So the explanation for the REA Jackson as it stands, is that it was found with a group of smaller cards with wavy cuts all in the same find. Therefor, it must mean that it was done at the factory and furthermore that accounts for a large percentage of T210's being smaller sized as well as the 1909 Obaks?

My originally problem was that PSA graded this card properly and still got slammed and said they didn't know what they where talking about. REA and other collectors are trying to say this was the way they where issued, and I for one would have to disagree. If PSA got lucky or not they made the right call.

Trevor Hocking
trevor@synergystudios.tv

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Trevor,

You really are a spunky guy! I think it's great that you ask so many questions!

To respond, the T210s with subtly wavy cuts like my Jackson come from collections everywhere, not just the consignor's. They also cover series other than series 8. For that reason (as well as others that I mention in my main post), I firmly believe the Jackson card has not been altered since it left the factory.

The phrase "trimmed" to me means a card that was cut after it left the factory. I would not call a card that left the factory with a subtly wavy cut (be it due to hand-cutting or imperfect machine-cutting) trimmed. What amazes me is the view that some hold that only cards with perfectly straight borders can be machine-cut. Given the WILDLY varying cuts of T210s (I have seen scans or heard of cards with the border cut practically into the image, the name partially missing, cards grossly oversized (which means that a grossly undersized card must have been correspondingly issued)), Old Mill obviously was not too concerned about quality control at the factory. All they cared about was selling the cigarettes and I don't think they worried that poorly cut cards would reduce cigarette sales. I find it very plausible that cutters with either dull blades or with stacks of sheets that were simultaneously being cut could produce cards without perfectly straight borders. I've done the same at my office when cutting documents or cardboards. (No, I do not trim cards!)

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Corey,

I'm sorry for all the questions, but hay isn't that how we learn? You have ask some ones that hurt people sometimes but I would like to know and see this issue more research. I have sold a complete set that my family was lucky enough to put together. When putting it together I too noticed some cards that where wavy and dismissed them as trimmed and did not buy them. Maybe I'm just having not buying them remorse. I just want to know as much as possible about a hobby I love. I wish people would try to share as much truthful information as possible and this hobby would be a lot fun! Great card Corey I will stop prying, you are obviously very happy and rightfully should be. E-mail me sometime and I will share some great cards I have in my collection. Over and Out!!!

Trevor Hocking
trevor@synergystudios.tv

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Posted By: Bob Marquette

Now that I have heard enough about "hand cut" "factory cut" "trimmed" to make my head spin like Linda Blair, can someone answer this question for me: what is a "sheet cut?" SGC rejected a beauty of an M116 blue Bresnahan I submitted, hoping for an 80 or 84 because it was "sheet cut?" Huh? Aren't all cards cut from sheets? So now we have hand cut, sheet cut, machine cut, trim cut, ad nauseum. (I still haven't fathomed how a grader thought that someone would idiotically take an uncut sheet of M116s and start whacking cards off. Unfriggingbelievable...)

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bob- The only guess I would have about sheet cut is that it means some collector found a sheet and decided to cut it down to create mint cards. Here's another one for you: I recently sent an Allegheny card to PSA and it came back an 8 (good news) but with the qualifier "hand cut" (odd news). I checked the population report and discovered that of about ten or so cards submitted, three received the handcut designation. That is rather interesting, because those familiar with the Allegheny set know the entire population derives from a single deck found in the late 1980's. So either all were hand cut, or none were. How could this unique deck of cards be cut in two different manners? Did their machine break halfway through and someone just took out a pair of scissors to finish the job? Obviously, there is a mistake being made but what can you do.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I own two Alleghany cards... and BOTH are clearly Hand Cut (because ALL of the cards in this set are)...

but neither has any designation on the slab:





(Note: The back shown with the Bresnahan is actually the back of the Brown card. I forgot to scan the Bresnahan back before I put it in the safe deposit box)

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Posted By: barrysloate

That's fine- then all the labels ahould be consistent. It gives the appearance that some cards are less desirable than others.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I agree Barry. Oh well.

I guess the "Sheet Cut" designation is ONLY given when PSA KNOWS for a FACT that someone cut a particular card from a sheet RECENTLY.

I guess this would be evidenced by:

1) The card measures PERFECT, but

2) The edges show evidence of RECENT cutting.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

which generated additonal questions in my mind, especially since I've "always" been very interested in tobacco card production, which includes not only printing but also cutting and distribution.

I didn't get any response to my posts in this thread concerning wavy cuts, so I deleted them, but Corey gave me a thorough email response to an email sent last night. I still have the following question:

If the percentage of t206's that were hand-cut (or cut with extremely poor equipment) is say .005%, and for t210's it is 25%, does this make hand-cut t210's more acceptable, even though the "normal" cut was in keeping with our traditional views of machine cuts? Would your answer be different if the % was 100? (mine would).

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Posted By: barrysloate

I doubt the grading services will take these percentages into consideration, so it then becomes an issue of collector acceptance. And that is a subjective matter; different collectors have different threshholds.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

CWYWC !!!!

repeat after me:

Collect What YOU Wanna Collect !!!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hal- Thanks for offering the translation of CWYWC. That one would have taken me three days to figure out. And good advise, by the way.

Barry- a knit is not a nit and advise is not advice

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Barry:

I made it a palindrome so it would be even easier to remember!!

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Posted By: barrysloate

a man- a plan- a canal- panama!

My favorite one.

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Posted By: leonl

This is just a guess but I have a feeling that there were several sheets of T210's that escaped the factory without being cut at time of their making. They got cut by hand, many years ago, and here they are......They weren't cut by a dull bladed machine. You would see extra threads or a kink but you wouldn't see that kind of wavy cut. Machine blades just don't work that way. A dull blade doesn't make the kind of cut that is on the Jackson where it is wavy in the middle of the boarder. I did find a large group of outside the hobby PCL cards (trucker boy find) and the '09 obaks had this kind of cut. Weird cuts- absolutely--- wavy like this...yeap...and I think they were hand cut just like this one alhthough at the factory..They mostly didn't have the wear this one had though..Actually I would hypothesize that the '09 Obak production was a factory machine breakdown issue and that's why the large percentage of them are found hand cut. A manager could have had a deadline to meet, the new machines broke down, and then the employees grabbed whatever they could to cut them from sheets to get them into packs..In the later year issues of Obaks the machines worked fine and we don't see these hand cuts...From my limited knowledge of T210's I haven't seen other series have this hand cut look?... This Jackson is an awesome card, is definitely hand cut (imo), is not trimmed, and looks great....regards

edited to make more sense...

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Posted By: barrysloate

An important point Leon makes that I agree with is that all baseball cards were nothing more than a product that had to get to market to meet a deadline; cutting baseball cards was no more important to the factory workers than garment workers who are cutting swaths of material for Jockey shorts- they just had to cut to specifications and make deadlines. And the same way "factory seconds" in garments hit the marketplace handcut cards can reach the market too. Remember, these were not baseball card collectors, just poorly paid factory workers who had a job to do. So I think you can find vintage baseball cards hand cut simply because on a particular day they had machine trouble and a deadline to make. It's no more complicated than that.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Barry:

Under your scenario, however, there should also be a large quantity of "hand cut" cards from the same set that were LARGER than the normal machine-cut cards, right?

If guys are just cutting cards from the sheet, then some will be big, some will be small, some will be straight, some will be wavy, some will be crooked, etc. Just the logical results of random cutting done in a hurry.

When there is a big lot of cards like these from the same series and ALL of them are undersized...

unfortunately it seems to defy the "randomality" theory of cutting.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

I think it's less likely that this happened with the OBAK's, only because it is evident how much pride went into that product. Sure, they were just pieces of cardboard, but they could have been much "less". The quality of the OBAK set is very impressive and I think that unless a major machinery breakdown occurred, and they were way behind schedule, I doubt they would have sacrificed quality to hand-cut so many cards and ship an inferior product.

I think it more likely that they had a surplus of cards that were scrapped and someone kept them and they were later hand-cut.

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Posted By: leonl

Great theory except oversized cards probably wouldn't fit into the packs....they would have to be xx size OR smaller to fit.....

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Are any of the hand-cut 1909 OBAK's oversized? If not, it's more likely they were done as part of production, but still not a certainty.