The Cincinnati Wagner "Graded"

[Rich Klein]

Presented without comment


Cinci Duo Finally Gets Wagner Card Slabbed

It's been beaten up. Dragged through the mud. Cursed. Reviled. Verbally spanked.

And that's just speaking metaphorically.



The Honus Wagner baseball card Ray Edwards and John Cobb own is still in the same shape it was in when they say it was uncovered at an estate sale years ago, but the community of mainstream authenticators and collectors are convinced it's just another in a long line of fakes.



Nothing has deterred the duo from trying to get someone to say it dates from the same early 20th time period as the real Wagners that are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.



Finally, they found a company to do just that.



ACA Grading, based in St-Jerome, Quebec, met with the men recently and after examining the card, decided it was an "unreleased version" of the hobby's most famous trading card, issued in 1909 and then recalled after objections by Wagner.



A story in the New York Daily News says ACA agreed to let the two owners be present during the evaluation. Cobb and Edwards claim they didn't want it to be encapsulated alone and, thus, steered clear of the hobby's mainstream authenticators.


Here is the story from the New York Daily News


T206 Honus Wagner card finally gets a stamp of approval, but controversy lingers


The two Cincinnati men who have spent many frustrating years trying to prove their T206 Honus Wagner is legitimate have finally gotten their baseball card authenticated.

But the collectors and dealers who have ripped Ray Edwards and John Cobb as hucksters peddling a counterfeit card will probably not apologize anytime soon.

Edwards and Cobb submitted their card to ACA Grading, a little-known authentication service based in Quebec, which labeled the card "authentic."



"It is what we call an unreleased version of the card," said ACA Grading owner Martin Brouillard. "It is a controversial card, and people are scared of it."



Edwards and Cobb have refused to submit their card to any of the three biggest grading services -- Professional Sports Authentication, Beckett and SportsCard Guaranty -- because those companies would not allow them to be present when their cards are evaluated.



The companies say that policy is necessary because they don't want collectors trying to influence the grades their cards receive. Cobb and Edwards say the policy sounds reasonable for cards worth a few dollars, but the companies should make exceptions for a card potentially worth millions of dollars.



Brouillard said he graded the card "authentic," rather than giving it a numeral grade, because he permitted Edwards to be present when he examined the card, and because fibers have been taken from the collectible.



Brouillard based his grade in part on research done by paper expert Walter Rantanen, who examined the card in 2003 at the request of Edwards and Cobb and concluded the paper stock was consistent "with being from 1910." Brouillard also relied in part on printing expert Arnie Schwed, who also examined the card for Edwards and Cobb and said it was definitely not a counterfeit.



Collectors say the card appears to be a fake because it looks dull and discolored. There is no black border around the picture of Wagner, and Wagner's name at the bottom looks different than it does on other T206 cards. Memorabilia industry executives, most notably PSA's Joe Orlando and Bill Mastro, whose now-defunct Mastro Auctions is at the center of an FBI fraud investigation, have called the card a fake.



Brouillard says the card may have been a print test for production, or a first printing that was scrapped.



Brouillard's opinion isn't likely to satisfy the critics of Edwards and Cobb. Without a stamp of approval from one of the mainstream grading services, Edwards and Cobb probably won't sell their card.



But it's not like the mainstream grading services and authenticators are unimpeachable. The T206 Wagner once owned by NHL superstar Wayne Gretzky, purchased in 2007 for $2.7 million by Arizona Diamondbacks managing general partner Ken Kendrick, was given an "8" by PSA even though one of the graders says he knew the card was trimmed when he examined it in 1991. The card grader, Bill Hughes, acknowledged that the Wagner was trimmed during an interview for "The Card," a 2007 book written by two Daily News reporters.

[glynparson]

Big difference between a trimmed authentic card and that counterfeit piece of crap that Cobb/Edwards have.

[buymycards]

Seems like it would be real simple to get PSA and SGC to look at it. Wonder why that hasn't happened?

[Matthew H]

Glad we finally know its real.

[calvindog]

It's racists like you people that keep these two good men down.

[Cardboard Junkie]

........here we go!

[ullmandds]

Ridiculous...that card is a POS! The reason Psa/sgc wont see is is because those idiots won't let it be graded unless they were present!

[campyfan39]

not saying it is real, but if I owned a t206 wagner NO ONE would get near it without me in the room!

[Doug]

I wish they would quit calling it the Cincinnati Wagner. If I ever win the lottery and can afford a legit one I'd never be able to sell it based on the possible confusion!

[AndyG09]

Always Clueless Authentic Grading of Quebec! I think they were grading in one of the bathrooms at the National. I wonder what the next move will be with this garbage slab? I imagine Coaches Corner would be the logical location for this trash.

Best,

Andy

[lharri3600]

how can orlando say the card is a fake when his company slabbed a trimmed wagner an 8. talk about hypocrites! that's why i'm about 90% out of the hobby. then there's the doyle polar bear. ho hum

[barrysloate]

Jeff beat me to it...the first thing I thought was better not criticize these two or you'll get accused of being a racist.

And there is no controversy whatsoever surrounding this card. It was fake, it's still fake, and tomorrow it will continue to be fake.

[lharri3600]

has anyone here touched or seen the card IN PERSON?

[JohnP0621]

Does anyone have a scan of this card?

[Ladder7]

Originally Posted by JohnP0621

Does anyone have a scan of this card?

There's a dozen on eBay on any given week.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by calvindog

It's racists like you people that keep these two good men down.

Indeed. Not only have the racists come out of the woodwork on this one, but a deluge of "anti-slabbites" and "honus-phobes" are out in full force as well.

[glynparson]

You do not need to see this card in person. It is a very common fake wagner front attached to a real T206 back. You do not have to see this card in person to know 100% it is fake. Oh by the way there are people including Brian Wentz that have seen this card in person and they are as convinced of its fakeness as i am. if you can not tell why this card is fake you need to be educated on t206 before you make any purchase of one.

Also I DONT GET HOW BECAUSE YOU SLABBED AN ALTERED CARD YOU CANT TELL A FAKE ONE? tHEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. a LOT MORE PEOPLE CAN TELL AUTHENTICITY THEN CAN TELL ALTERATIONS. Sorry for the caps lock i was not shouting just didn't notice it was on

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by JohnP0621

Does anyone have a scan of this card?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Seems like it would be real simple to get PSA and SGC to look at it. Wonder why that hasn't happened?

That's simple. Remember, they were 'afraid' that if the card were out of their sight for even a second during grading/slabbing, that someone at PSA or SGC would quickly switch it with a fake.

Didn't we have a board member years ago say that they were the ones who actually sold the reprint card to these clowns at a show, after they asked questions that basically revealed their intentions?

This would be entertaining if not for the fact that at some point someone decent will get screwed over this.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

not saying it is real, but if I owned a t206 wagner NO ONE would get near it without me in the room!

I know we've been over this a million times, but any t206 collector (or litho collector in general) can tell a real from a fake in seconds. Loop the front, look at the dot pattern, job done. It literally takes seconds.

But these guys know it's a fake because they 'created' it. If it were real, they would have sent it to PSA and reaped their just rewards. Also said before, they have to get it 'legitimately' slabbed to protect themselves from lawsuits when they get their 'unjust' reward. They have to then find just the right stooge to buy this thing - someone who wants to believe it is real so badly that they will tout its authenticity as much as these two clowns have.

[barrysloate]

Who are these hosers at ACA Grading? Has anyone ever seen a graded vintage card in one of their holders?

[Section103]

It's pretty simple - the market will determine if its real or fake. Its been "authenticated", they're free to sell it (as they always have been), and we'll see what the top dollar brings. Honestly, I'd be happy to own it for...I dunno maybe $25.

[glynparson]

I do not care what the "market": determines the CARD is 100% A FAKE FRONT

[Leon]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I do not care what the "market": determines the CARD is 100% A FAKE FRONT

Yeah, but that back could be worth some big bucks!!

[terjung]

OK, I'm far from a T206 expert and not that anyone here believes for a second that it is real, but for crying out loud... that card's not even close! For starters, the font is wrong. The letters after the P in Pittsburgh are all the wrong size from a traditional T206. I can only imagine that a more detailed look with a loop could point out a whole litany of other reproduction characteristics... dot pattern, edge inspection, etc. I'd bet that thing would fluoresce under black light too. Even before all that, the presumably artificial aging looks suspicious. The only way I'd spend $25 on that thing is just as cocktail fodder...or to make the story just go away. Aren't their 15 minutes up yet?

[vintagecpa]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Didn't we have a board member years ago say that they were the ones who actually sold the reprint card to these clowns at a show, after they asked questions that basically revealed their intentions?

I would love to read that thread if it still exists. If anyone is able to find it, please post the link. Thanks.

[Cat]

Leon: Maybe you can have them place it in the next B-L Auction. Of course you probably have to allow them to have a two-week sleep over at your place so they can be assured you don't insert a "fake" card while it is in your possession. It should be fun.

You can receive some valuable knowledge from two of the better known collectors in the industry.

[E93]

My memory could be failing me, but I thought a board member posted that that card looked like a reprint stolen out of his office and that he coincidentally lived just a few miles from the current owners in Cincinnati.
JimB

[barrysloate]

If ACA Grading should happen to read this board, I have a question for them:

I think they made a very bold assertion by calling the Edwards-Cobb specimen an unreleased version of the T206 Honus Wagner. This being the case, and since all grading companies need to stand behind such statements, I would like to know what exhaustive research the company made to reach this conclusion? What libraries did you folks visit, what primary and secondary sources did you use, what internet sites did you find, and did you study in detail the records of the ATC? I imagine to reach such a conclusion, no amount of time was spared in doing your research.

I ask you this because I am thinking of making the owners a very significant offer for their card. But in order to do so with the appropriate level of confidence, I really do need to see documentation. I realize we may be talking about a couple of hundred pages that will need to be photocopied, so please know that I will reimburse you for all your costs.

So if you are reading this, I thank you in advance for all your time and trouble. I realize you must all be exhausted from the weeks of research you put in to come with your conclusion, but I think we can all agree it was well worth it.

Look forward to receiving a packet of documents from your company. Thanks again.

[byrone]

Found this interesting, from the Hockey side of things

...notice of fake Bobby Orr cards...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/38176...Bobby+Orr+Card

and then

...current Ebay listing for a (graded) fake Bobby Orr card

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tchlink:top:en


Conclusion: Get a fake card into a slab is Priority #1

[novakjr]

Honest question here. Clearly this card is not authentic and will never be valued anywhere near the value of a legit Wagner, But would this particular card hold any value based on it's background and story? Like I said, it's not a legit Wagner, but just for fun, wouldn't it be interesting to say that you own "The Infamous Cincinnati Wagner"? For $20-50, I'd probably bite just to say that.. I'm wondering what some of you other members would pay, just to be the one to put this mess to rest?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

If ACA Grading should happen to read this board, I have a question for them:

Barry, ACA Grading probably is run out of someone's mother's basement!

[barrysloate]

Well Jeff, I want to know where they come off encapsulating a card that they know is bad; how did they come to fabricate this silly story about it being a pre-release version of a real Wagner; and has anyone on this board actually seen a card graded by ACA?

I'm really tired of seeing people with no skills and no credentials whatsoever passing themselves off as experts. It's plagued the autograph side of the hobby, and now it's becoming part of vintage baseball cards too.

[Runscott]

My guess is that the Cincinnati guys got someone to agree to grade it, in exchange for a percentage of the final selling price. It could be one of their friends or some unscrupulous person who approached them first. In any event, I'm sure it's not a legitimate grading company.

Why would this surprise anyone? We've seen grading company abominations now for many years. It isn't going to stop.

[Rob L]

Check out their website. Autograph experts too!! Jeez!!

http://www.acagrading.com/en/index.htm

[E93]

Here is a question for the lawyers here. Does the grading company have any responsibility for authenticating an obviously fake card? Can they get sued if someone bought the card on their assurance that it was authentic? I suppose it depends on the way the grading company presents what they are doing. I am curious what their liability is. My guess is not much, that they are just offering opinions and that their only real value is the perceived respect they garner in the hobby.
JimB

[barrysloate]

Jim- what I find interesting here is ACA did much more than merely render a verdict of genuine or not genuine. They took the bold step of calling it an unreleased proof. And that was the point of my sarcastic post #29: exactly what research went into this rather unique designation? There is nothing that any advanced collector on this board sees that would support their claim, so I would assume anyone making it would be prepared to defend such a determination. This of course doesn't answer your question about their liability, just my own thoughts on the matter.

[Scott T]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Who are these hosers at ACA Grading? Has anyone ever seen a graded vintage card in one of their holders?

BOB: "Good day, eh! We graded this card and it's a beauty, eh."

DOUG: "We got paid in Elsinore beers!"

[barrysloate]

Scott- did you see the one where the Mackenzie brothers put a baby mouse in an empty beer bottle, let it grow to maturity, then filled the bottle with beer and recapped it, returned it to the company for a refund, and then got a whole case of beer back as part of the company's apology? Pretty funny.

[hunterdutchess]

How long before the card gets listed on ebay? I can't wait to see the description. Here is a bogus graded Wagner :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner...#ht_789wt_1185

$200?

[Tsaiko]

Originally Posted by hunterdutchess

How long before the card gets listed on ebay? I can't wait to see the description. Here is a bogus graded Wagner :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner...#ht_789wt_1185

$200?

Good lord.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur0g-R7ZODY

[E93]

Originally Posted by hunterdutchess

How long before the card gets listed on ebay? I can't wait to see the description. Here is a bogus graded Wagner :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner...#ht_789wt_1185

$200?

Looks like a color copy of a real Wagner pasted on a real piedmont back.
JimB

[cobblove]

"
How long before the card gets listed on ebay? I can't wait to see the description. Here is a bogus graded Wagner :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner...#ht_789wt_1185

$200?""


LOL that one looks more convincing than the straight up fake cincy card. Both are fake. But damn that cincy one is nasty fake.

[Vintagedegu]

-

[ls7plus]

While I'm skeptical also, I'd still like to compare the lithogrpahic dot pattern under my 16x loupe, or better yet, a microscope with the proper power, to a known genuine card, or series of such cards. Simply stated, that should tell if the card is counterfeit or not. If it is not counterfeit, but there remain significant differences with regard to other characteristics of the card, then the card is something other than a regular T206, and the question becomes what it is. The grading service which has in fact encasulated it has assigned it a category, which may or may not be correct. Barry is quite correct--we need to know how they arrived at that conclusion, assuming the card passed the former test. One thing does concern me, however.

I've taken hundreds of depostions in my career as a lawyer, many of them involving scammers of one kind or another, and these two are simply not behaving in a way that is consistent with the behavior these types of persons do exhibit. Perhaps if I saw the card in person and could examine it, I would have a somewhat different opinion, but the animosity towards these two seems to have grown out of hand.

Best regards, regardless of our different sentiments here,

Larry

[Ladder7]

Larry, it's been examined by an auction house owner, forensic expert and now a grading company (with a combined 39yrs experience) from a sophisticated province in Canada.

Theyve jumped through hoops to protect the prospective buyer. What more can we expect from these good fellows?

[benjulmag]

Larry,

I think you'd be wasting your time. And I do think the actions of these two guys are consistent with professional scammers. If they were really sincere, they would take a sample of the FRONT of the card and test the age. Its been said many times that EVEN IF the verso dates to 1909, that means NOTHING in this case given the documented discrepancies with the front. It would be easy for a professional conservator to put a reprint front on a slivered-off Piedmont back.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Vintagedegu

On The Card and the race card front...

http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/y...-honus-wagners

If you don't know your subject, you probably shouldn't be talking. Big problem with people these days.

Yeah, but he got to play the race card. fun, fun, fun.

[atx840]

Slabbed

[Vintagedegu]

-