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  #101  
Old 11-23-2022, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
I guess I didn't realize that if a raw card goes to CSG, they are both authenticating it AND matching up what the seller said it would grade? That must get interesting fast, since descriptions of raw cards on eBay many times don't conform to a TPG's 10 point scale. What if they said a card was EX, but in the opposite direction - CSG said no, this is NM! Would that be rejected for being the "wrong" grade even if it were higher? I once bought a '61 Willie Mays AS that was described as "EX" by an eBay outfit that was more of an antique mall than a pure card dealer. When I sent it off to SGC, it came back an 8. Would that have "failed" authentication?
They aren't grading the card or making judgements on sellers grading, they make sure its not counterfeit and they match it to photos in the auction to make sure its the same card.
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  #102  
Old 11-23-2022, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim65 View Post
They aren't grading the card or making judgements on sellers grading, they make sure its not counterfeit and they match it to photos in the auction to make sure its the same card.
This is not true. This is not what the raw program claimed to do - they are supposed to make sure the card matches the sellers description, including condition. Cards have been rejected for sellers over grading them, like the Bowman Spahn card.
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  #103  
Old 11-23-2022, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
This is not true. This is not what the raw program claimed to do - they are supposed to make sure the card matches the sellers description, including condition. Cards have been rejected for sellers over grading them, like the Bowman Spahn card.
I can see where this would get super frustrating. Agreed that buyers should have an option to opt out of the authenticity guarantee. Some of the vintage cards I have seen thus far in CSG slabs are waaaaaay overgraded. I wouldn't want them casting judgement on raw cards that I bought online.
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  #104  
Old 11-24-2022, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim65 View Post
They aren't grading the card or making judgements on sellers grading, they make sure its not counterfeit and they match it to photos in the auction to make sure its the same card.
This is not true. In fact, the only cards I've purchased that were rejected were done so because of the condition not matching the description.

I even consigned some cards with Probstein that got rejected by CSG. When I looked at the listings, it was difficult to see that there were wrinkles (they were low-grade raw cards). He sent them back to me, and I relisted them myself and put "wrinkle" in the title and showed clear pics of the wrinkles and called them out in the description (something Probstein should have done as well). They passed authentication for me.
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https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=46
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  #105  
Old 11-24-2022, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
I can see where this would get super frustrating. Agreed that buyers should have an option to opt out of the authenticity guarantee. Some of the vintage cards I have seen thus far in CSG slabs are waaaaaay overgraded. I wouldn't want them casting judgement on raw cards that I bought online.
Do you have links you can share for the overgraded CSG slabs you've found? I've come across a couple, but not a lot. They've been pretty on point from most of what I've encountered.
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I'm a data scientist who works on problems that are very similar to the problem of "AI" card grading. Here are some links to some of my thoughts on the topic.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...35#post2132535

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=46
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  #106  
Old 11-25-2022, 05:48 AM
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The authenticators aren't supposed to reject cards that are off grade from what the seller claims (VGEX instead of EX or EX instead of EXMT) They are looking for hidden undisclosed damage and flaws, wrinkles, trimming, erasures, etc. If those flaws are disclosed or clearly shown in the photos, as long as the card is authentic, its supposed to pass.
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  #107  
Old 11-25-2022, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim65 View Post
The authenticators aren't supposed to reject cards that are off grade from what the seller claims (VGEX instead of EX or EX instead of EXMT) They are looking for hidden undisclosed damage and flaws, wrinkles, trimming, erasures, etc. If those flaws are disclosed or clearly shown in the photos, as long as the card is authentic, its supposed to pass.
They are looking for undisclosed damage or a lying grade. I doubt they will go so literal as to reject a EX+ they think is EX, but they are absolutely rejecting cards with overstated grades. List a card as gem mint and disclose the crease, watch what happens.
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  #108  
Old 11-25-2022, 12:22 PM
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So here's a good one. I recently bought a PSA graded Pedro Martinez autograph card, standard Leaf issue, was clearly fine, PSA REJECTS it and ebay refunds me. PSA tells the seller the case was cracked. He gets it back it's not cracked at all. But here is where it gets even stranger, they send him a note telling him when he RELISTS it, to use a higher resolution scan, when his scan was already outstanding. The whole thing makes no sense, and why are they telling him to relist it if they just rejected it?
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  #109  
Old 11-25-2022, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
So here's a good one. I recently bought a PSA graded Pedro Martinez autograph card, standard Leaf issue, was clearly fine, PSA REJECTS it and ebay refunds me. PSA tells the seller the case was cracked. He gets it back it's not cracked at all. But here is where it gets even stranger, they send him a note telling him when he RELISTS it, to use a higher resolution scan, when his scan was already outstanding. The whole thing makes no sense, and why are they telling him to relist it if they just rejected it?
If the seller is honestly relating what happened to you … uh… Wow.
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  #110  
Old 11-25-2022, 12:41 PM
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If the seller is honestly relating what happened to you … uh… Wow.
I think he is. He isn't asking me to buy the card again or anything, so no reason to make anything up.
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  #111  
Old 11-25-2022, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I think he is. He isn't asking me to buy the card again or anything, so no reason to make anything up.
I suspect that it was an ebay rep who actually told him to use higher resolution scans next time, just hoping that it might resolve whatever issue it was that they couldn't figure out. Regardless, it's still bonkers. This whole ebay authentication thing is a clusterF.
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I'm a data scientist who works on problems that are very similar to the problem of "AI" card grading. Here are some links to some of my thoughts on the topic.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...35#post2132535

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=46
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  #112  
Old 11-25-2022, 01:27 PM
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/25578755835...Bk9SR_qy-YOWYQ
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  #113  
Old 11-25-2022, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Those aren't scans.

And the bottom edge of the slab is covered.

Last edited by Tabe; 11-25-2022 at 03:37 PM.
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  #114  
Old 11-28-2022, 07:34 PM
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(Sigh) The buyer should have the option to waive this service especially if the card is graded by one of the big 3. What a freakin waste of time and shipping materials. And does anyone actually keep the card on that ridiculous cardboard monstrosity? Jeesh.
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  #115  
Old 11-29-2022, 03:42 PM
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Another missing cog in the program is that complete sets appear to be ignored. So they'll be sure that your single $700 slab purchase is ok (but not the multitude of high-value cards in a $50 k set)

At least that's what I'm assuming, since there isn't the typical mention of the authentication program in the listings of such sets.
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  #116  
Old 11-29-2022, 04:47 PM
Gorditadogg Gorditadogg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kutcher55 View Post
(Sigh) The buyer should have the option to waive this service especially if the card is graded by one of the big 3. What a freakin waste of time and shipping materials. And does anyone actually keep the card on that ridiculous cardboard monstrosity? Jeesh.
Oh sure, I would not have a problem if there was a form a buyer could sign saying something like "I believe this card is mis-represented or fake but I want to buy it anyway and waive any recourse against the seller or ebay".

I personally wouldn't sign that but if there are people who think that would be a good thing, well okay let's have ebay make it an option.

Last edited by Gorditadogg; 11-29-2022 at 09:21 PM.
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  #117  
Old 12-02-2022, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
Do you have links you can share for the overgraded CSG slabs you've found? I've come across a couple, but not a lot. They've been pretty on point from most of what I've encountered.
Sorry Travis, somehow missed your reply. I was talking most recently about a card I saw in person. It was a '63 Topps Ernie Banks at my LCS in a CSG 2.5. It looked pretty decent and I was actually considering buying it, when I noticed a cut and not small area of paper loss on the surface on the bottom right. It should have been pretty obvious to a grader. No way that card should have been more than a 1.

Others, like with shopping online - I seem to see some discrepancies with cards in upper midgrade that have questionable corner wear for the grade assigned.
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Last edited by jchcollins; 12-02-2022 at 08:56 AM.
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  #118  
Old 12-02-2022, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Tabe View Post
Those aren't scans.

And the bottom edge of the slab is covered.
No they are certainly not scans and the cell phone pics are not that clear but how did PSA give that card a 9? The upper right corner is a 6, at best.
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  #119  
Old 12-02-2022, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
Sorry Travis, somehow missed your reply. I was talking most recently about a card I saw in person. It was a '63 Topps Ernie Banks at my LCS in a CSG 2.5. It looked pretty decent and I was actually considering buying it, when I noticed a cut and not small area of paper loss on the surface on the bottom right. It should have been pretty obvious to a grader. No way that card should have been more than a 1.

Others, like with shopping online - I seem to see some discrepancies with cards in upper midgrade that have questionable corner wear for the grade assigned.
Ya, paper loss on the front should probably be a bit harsher than that. Although I'm somewhat of the mind that PSA & SGC do this wrong as well sometimes, but it's the standard of the industry, so might as well uphold the it.

The corners thing is mostly where I've seen CSG overgrade cards, but I'm not sure I've seen them overgrade for that at a higher rate than what I've seen from PSA or SGC. As an example, here's a Jackie card in a 6 holder that I came across recently. Beautiful card, but if I sent that in, I'd be crossing my fingers for a 4, and PSA probably gives it a 3.5 nowadays (once upon a time, they would have given it a 5). Basically, all the TPGs are seemingly all over the place with respect to corners.
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File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2022-11-26 at 11.52.45 PM.jpg (116.3 KB, 229 views)
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I'm a data scientist who works on problems that are very similar to the problem of "AI" card grading. Here are some links to some of my thoughts on the topic.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...35#post2132535

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=46
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  #120  
Old 12-02-2022, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
Sorry Travis, somehow missed your reply. I was talking most recently about a card I saw in person. It was a '63 Topps Ernie Banks at my LCS in a CSG 2.5. It looked pretty decent and I was actually considering buying it, when I noticed a cut and not small area of paper loss on the surface on the bottom right. It should have been pretty obvious to a grader. No way that card should have been more than a 1.

Others, like with shopping online - I seem to see some discrepancies with cards in upper midgrade that have questionable corner wear for the grade assigned.
Ya, paper loss on the front should probably be a bit harsher than that. Although I'm somewhat of the mind that PSA & SGC do this wrong as well sometimes, but it's the standard of the industry, so might as well uphold the it.

The corners thing is mostly where I've seen CSG overgrade cards, but I'm not sure I've seen them overgrade for that at a higher rate than what I've seen from PSA or SGC. As an example, here's a Jackie card in a 6 holder that I came across recently. Beautiful card, but if I sent that in, I'd be crossing my fingers for a 4, and PSA probably gives it a 3.5 nowadays (once upon a time, they would have given it a 5). Basically, all the TPGs are seemingly all over the place with respect to corners.
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File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2022-11-26 at 11.52.45 PM.jpg (116.3 KB, 230 views)
__________________
I'm a data scientist who works on problems that are very similar to the problem of "AI" card grading. Here are some links to some of my thoughts on the topic.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...35#post2132535

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=46

Last edited by Snowman; 12-02-2022 at 08:44 PM.
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  #121  
Old 12-03-2022, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
As an example, here's a Jackie card in a 6 holder that I came across recently. Beautiful card, but if I sent that in, I'd be crossing my fingers for a 4, and PSA probably gives it a 3.5 nowadays (once upon a time, they would have given it a 5). Basically, all the TPGs are seemingly all over the place with respect to corners.
Yeah, no way that Jackie realistically has 6 corners. So what you are saying is what has always more or less been true about professional grading: The subjective scale based on eye appeal waxes and wanes, and standards fluctuate over time. This is why all TPG's to me at the end of the day still smack of at least some type of gimmick.
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Last edited by jchcollins; 12-03-2022 at 08:29 AM.
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  #122  
Old 12-10-2022, 09:31 AM
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I just received another graded, ebay authentication item. In the long run this has to be more than a $10 cost basis, with the great packaging, service and shipping. I am not going to like it either. I don't need anyone to tell me this is real.
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  #123  
Old 12-11-2022, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Leon View Post
I just received another graded, ebay authentication item. In the long run this has to be more than a $10 cost basis, with the great packaging, service and shipping. I am not going to like it either. I don't need anyone to tell me this is real.
.
Super pick up, Leon - congrats! I've never had a Grieners Bread in my type collection, and if I has seen the eBay listing, it would have cost you more!
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  #124  
Old 12-28-2022, 05:51 PM
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Well, this should be fun. Looks like it's my turn...

I bought a raw Mantle on eBay and it got sent to CSG to authenticate it. I didn't notice it at the time, but the card in the listing showed the wrong back (the card I bought was a 1960 Topps, but the back image is actually of a 1966 Topps Mantle). It didn't register to me when I bid on the card because I only examine the images for creases, markings, and other flaws. Anyhow, the card gets sent off to CSG and they authenticated it. However, the card I received has a pen marking on the back that someone tried to erase.

The listing states "no returns" and eBay will not allow me to file a claim because the card was authenticated by CSG.
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Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
Correct. I primarily focus on the front centering. I couldn't care less about the back unless it has been altered. I looked for alterations. I didn't see any, so I bid accordingly. The CSG authenticator clearly didn't notice either. However, they also failed to spot the alteration, which is much worse IMO.

Here is the listing:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/285021128754

And here is a scan of the back of the card I received. Alteration circled in the top left corner. The scan blows out the color differentiation somewhat though. It's more obvious in hand. Someone tried to erase a pen marking in that corner.

I filed a claim. eBay denied the claim. I filed an appeal. We'll see how it goes...

Well, it took a while, but I have an update. I appealed eBay's claim denial and sent in pictures of the card I received. eBay said they would get back to me within 2 days... 2 weeks later and still no update. So, I was able to contact someone in customer support and they looked into it. They had me send the card back to CSG for re-authentication. I just got word today that they have reversed their decision on my case and have accepted my appeal. They are refunding me the $500.
__________________
I'm a data scientist who works on problems that are very similar to the problem of "AI" card grading. Here are some links to some of my thoughts on the topic.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...35#post2132535

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=46
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  #125  
Old 01-06-2023, 10:11 AM
raulus raulus is offline
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Default Interesting plot twist

Got an email from eBay this morning about an item I recently ordered, relating to the authenticity program, which reminded me of this thread, and the desire by some parties to opt out of the program. Not that I really wanted to opt out myself, but apparently the seller managed to make it happen.

For your reading pleasure:

Your order is on the way, but won’t come with our Authenticity Guarantee

We wanted to let you know that your order (below) is on the way, but unfortunately we can’t provide the Authenticity Guarantee you were expecting. The item was miscategorized when it was listed and isn’t eligible for this service. We know this may be disappointing and we’ve contacted the seller to let them know about the error in their listing. If you have any questions or concerns, please just get in touch. We’re here to help.

Thanks for being part of the eBay community.
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1959 Bazooka Complete Box
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  #126  
Old 01-06-2023, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by raulus View Post
Got an email from eBay this morning about an item I recently ordered, relating to the authenticity program, which reminded me of this thread, and the desire by some parties to opt out of the program. Not that I really wanted to opt out myself, but apparently the seller managed to make it happen.

For your reading pleasure:

Your order is on the way, but won’t come with our Authenticity Guarantee

We wanted to let you know that your order (below) is on the way, but unfortunately we can’t provide the Authenticity Guarantee you were expecting. The item was miscategorized when it was listed and isn’t eligible for this service. We know this may be disappointing and we’ve contacted the seller to let them know about the error in their listing. If you have any questions or concerns, please just get in touch. We’re here to help.

Thanks for being part of the eBay community.
I had sonething similar. It was a postcard in a PSA slab. But since it was a postcard PSA isn’t allowed to check if the slab is authentic.

Last edited by EddieP; 01-06-2023 at 02:04 PM.
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  #127  
Old 01-23-2023, 08:00 PM
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apparently after speaking to a eBay seller who sold a cobb super cheap eBay AG will send it back and tell them to get it graded. So much for a binding contract lol
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