Ted Williams Topps 1957 #1

[cbdavids]

I'm undecided- should I have this card graded or not? It has some issues, but the centering and corners are strong. I need it to be a PSA 7 or above.

[KCRfan1]

I think you could pull a 7 on the card, based on corners and centering. You said the card has " issues ". What are the issues?

[cbdavids]

Primarily the print scratch above the hands, the red print dots on the upper right border, and the rough edge along the bottom.

[ALR-bishop]

In any event, a nice card cb

[cbdavids]

Thanks. I came by the card with a little help from the Splendid Splinter's son, John Henry Williams.

You can find the story here:

https://ashevilleoralhistoryproject..../ted-williams/

[Harliduck]

Cool story, thanks for sharing...I love that card and you have a dandy

[irv]

Originally Posted by cbdavids

I'm undecided- should I have this card graded or not? It has some issues, but the centering and corners are strong. I need it to be a PSA 7 or above.

I read your story and read about some references to the number 7, but I am unsure if that is the reason you need your card to grade a 7 or above??

Personally, although I'd love a 7 or above as well if it were my card, I'd be real happy, which I'm sure you are, just to say I own this one.

Your story was great, BTW.

[swarmee]

Registration is slightly off T/B as well. Nice card, but the bottom edge is weird in the middle. Not sure if that equates to a 7, and not sure why you would require a 7. Even a 6 or 6.5 would have value over the grading fees.

[JollyElm]

Grading aside, just take a trip down that "AVG." column. Look at those frickin' numbers. Oh em gee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[the 'stache]

Hi, cbdavids. First of all, though you registered more than a year ago, I don't recall ever speaking with you, personally. So, welcome to the forum.

Six months ago, I'd have said, "yes, it's a PSA 7". Now? To be completely honest, I have no clue anymore. It seems more and more that the whims of the company, and the individual graders, have destroyed any consistency where their standards are concerned.

It's a gorgeous baseball card. As has already been stated in this discussion, I'd love to have that beauty in my collection. I don't know why you're selling, or why you're needing a certain grade (and it's not my place to ask). But the connection to the Splendid Splinter's son, and the card itself, would make it exceedingly difficult for me to sell unless the funds were needed to help my family. I'd do anything for my family; I'd just sell a lot of other cards before I'd part with that one.

Best guess, you're looking at a strong six. The scratch mark, and the rough cut on the bottom, would likely downgrade it some. It might get a 6.5 (they're still doing half grades, are they not?), though I'll be damned if I could discern between a 6 and a 6.5 now given their current grading environment. If this for some kind of registry submission, you might get lucky with multiple submissions. If it's a financial concern, man, you might have a 25% chance at a 7. Depends on the grader, their mood, what they had for lunch.....

Good luck whatever you decide to do. Please let us know.

[the 'stache]

Plus juan. I still geek out when I look at Ted's numbers.

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Grading aside, just take a trip down that "AVG." column. Look at those frickin' numbers. Oh em gee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Harliduck]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Grading aside, just take a trip down that "AVG." column. Look at those frickin' numbers. Oh em gee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No doubt....I love flipping over my Ted cards and seeing those stats...the fact he hit over .400 three times! I don't care the others don't count, still cool. Much like big Papi, he went out in style too...how do you retire after hitting 29 bombs, batting .316, and having an OPS of 1.096 in your final year? He played in 113 games, not bad for an old man! I still can't believe he retired with a lifetime .482 OBP...I am pretty sure that is a record. I always geek out wondering what his stats would look like with 4-6 more productive years in his prime that he missed due to the military. Would any lifetime records have been safe?


Again...great card. When I was a kid we had an older gentleman who was a retired teacher living in my town that had a massive vintage collection. His cards were really beat up, written on, ect....but to a 12 year old kid seeing a stack of 63 Topps was unfathomable. He kept a secret stash of cards in his bedroom in a safe, and every once in a while he would bring out a card or two to show us. His pride and joy was a NM 1957 Topps Ted Williams that looked as perfect as a card could be to a 12 year old. I swore it glowed. The perfect year, card, pose for such an iconic ballplayer. This card has always been super special to me and the day I got my own card (not as nice as yours or my childhood card) was a great day...

[the 'stache]

John, the one stat that jumps out to me most of all is his OBP. That .482 lifetime mark is, indeed, a Major League record, and by a pretty comfortable margin. Ruth is second all-time at .474. John McGraw and Billy Hamilton, two dead ball era guys are next, and then Gehrig is fifth at .447. If you think about that, it really paints Williams in a remarkable light. Ruth transformed the game, and as such, it's understandable the fear factor was omnipresent. I'd imagine that a lot of pitchers tried to throw around Ruth. He didn't have Gehrig until 1926 (I mean, the "Gehrig" that would become feared). By the time Teddy Ballgame came around in 1939, the game had adjusted. There were several guys hitting 40 + home runs a season. Yet Williams, for his massive power, had an eye, and plate discipline, that was second to none. He walked 2,021 times, and struck out only 709 times. No other player that I'm aware of, especially a hitter with the monstrous power these guys had, comes close to a 3:1 lifetime walk to strikeout ratio. Gehrig is closest off the top of my head, at about 2:1. The Babe walked 2,062 times, but whiffed over 1,300 times. Barry Bonds, before age 35, had 1,430 walks and 1,112 Ks. After 1999, Bonds had a 2.6:1 walk to K ratio (1,128 walks to 438 Ks). As great as that was, it still doesn't come close to Williams career mark.

It's fun to think about what his lifetime stats would have been had he not missed those five seasons. And, if he hadn't sat out the first month plus of 1955, a season he had a 1.200 OPS + at age 34 (28 home runs in 320 at bats. Are you kidding me??) Look what he did when he was 38. .388 AVG, 38 HR, .526 OBP, .731 SLG, 1.257 OPS.

Look at the two seasons before, and after, his three years out of the game because of his military commitment.

Baseball Reference
1941 10.6 WAR
1942 10.6 WAR
1946 10.9 WAR
1947 9.9 WAR

42 WAR

Fangraphs

1941 11.0 WAR
1942 11.6 WAR
1946 11.8 WAR
1947 10.5 WAR

44.9 WAR

Take his lowest of those seasons, multiply by three. He'd have had another 30.0 WAR, bare minimum. Baseball Reference has him at a 123.0 career WAR; Fangraphs 130.4. His career WAR is on par with Ruth's with those three seasons added back in.

Ruth fWAR 168.4
Williams fWAR 130.4 + 30=160.4

That's not even considering '52 and '53, when he only played 43 games due to Korea. Figure he gets another 12-15 WAR there, if not more (that's being conservative).

And the counting stats? He's well over 3,000 hits. Well over 600 home runs. Well over 2,000 RBI. I think he's at 3,400 + hits, 650-700 home runs, and 2,300 + RBIs. And his walk count? 2,600 to 2,700. He's #1 all time there.

He was a .359 hitter between 1940 and 1948. If he has those three full seasons, his career average is likely higher, closer to .350 lifetime. Maybe he doesn't play those last two years, where he hit .254 and .316. '59 and '60 dropped him from .349 to .344 lifetime. Drop those seasons, add back three in his prime, and the majority of play time in the two seasons I mentioned, and he's pushing .353 or so, lifetime.

It all makes my head spin.

Originally Posted by Harliduck

No doubt....I love flipping over my Ted cards and seeing those stats...the fact he hit over .400 three times! I don't care the others don't count, still cool. Much like big Papi, he went out in style too...how do you retire after hitting 29 bombs, batting .316, and having an OPS of 1.096 in your final year? He played in 113 games, not bad for an old man! I still can't believe he retired with a lifetime .482 OBP...I am pretty sure that is a record. I always geek out wondering what his stats would look like with 4-6 more productive years in his prime that he missed due to the military. Would any lifetime records have been safe?


Again...great card. When I was a kid we had an older gentleman who was a retired teacher living in my town that had a massive vintage collection. His cards were really beat up, written on, ect....but to a 12 year old kid seeing a stack of 63 Topps was unfathomable. He kept a secret stash of cards in his bedroom in a safe, and every once in a while he would bring out a card or two to show us. His pride and joy was a NM 1957 Topps Ted Williams that looked as perfect as a card could be to a 12 year old. I swore it glowed. The perfect year, card, pose for such an iconic ballplayer. This card has always been super special to me and the day I got my own card (not as nice as yours or my childhood card) was a great day...

[DBesse27]

I doubt they deduct for that factory rough cut.

[jchcollins]

Have they started downgrading noticeably for rough cuts? Used to be that PSA was not bothered by rough cuts, I didn't think.

[FourStrikes]

Originally Posted by Harliduck

No doubt....I love flipping over my Ted cards and seeing those stats...the fact he hit over .400 three times! I don't care the others don't count, still cool. Much like big Papi, he went out in style too...how do you retire after hitting 29 bombs, batting .316, and having an OPS of 1.096 in your final year? He played in 113 games, not bad for an old man! I still can't believe he retired with a lifetime .482 OBP...I am pretty sure that is a record. I always geek out wondering what his stats would look like with 4-6 more productive years in his prime that he missed due to the military. Would any lifetime records have been safe?


Again...great card. When I was a kid we had an older gentleman who was a retired teacher living in my town that had a massive vintage collection. His cards were really beat up, written on, ect....but to a 12 year old kid seeing a stack of 63 Topps was unfathomable. He kept a secret stash of cards in his bedroom in a safe, and every once in a while he would bring out a card or two to show us. His pride and joy was a NM 1957 Topps Ted Williams that looked as perfect as a card could be to a 12 year old. I swore it glowed. The perfect year, card, pose for such an iconic ballplayer. This card has always been super special to me and the day I got my own card (not as nice as yours or my childhood card) was a great day...

methinks HORNSBY hit over .400 THREE TIMES, but aside from that, Teddy Ballgame was freakin' amazing AND I love his cards.

DS

[cbdavids]

Thanks for the comments and welcome. I think I'll take your advice and hold on to the #1 for the time being. It sounds like grading is a bit of a roller coaster ride these days. I am, however, looking forward to spending more time on the '54.

[pclpads]

Originally Posted by cbdavids

I'm undecided- should I have this card graded or not?

Only way to find out if it gets a "7" is to sub it. Nothing ventured,
nothing gained.

[egri]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

John, the one stat that jumps out to me most of all is his OBP.[...]It all makes my head spin.

I saw somewhere that he was projected to hit 701 home runs with those years added back in. If he was that close in 1960, I'm sure he comes back in 1961 (maybe even 1962 as well) to beat expansion pitching like a rented mule.

[Harliduck]

Originally Posted by egri

to beat expansion pitching like a rented mule.

Now that was an awesome line....

[ls7plus]

Great card, and one of the one's I am still hunting for in "7" or better. That was the year Ted, turning 39 that August, hit .388 (just six hits shy of .400) with 38 HR's! The greatest hitter of all time, based on what I personally believe is the best yardstick, Bill James' runs created compared to league average runs created (per 27 outs) of that time. Ted was at 250% of league average for his ENTIRE CAREER, while Gehrig (who was over 210% career-wise, as I recall), in his best year, 1927, only got to 249%. The Babe, who created more total runs than Ted because the conditions of his era were more conducive to run production, was at 240%.

Larry

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

Great card, and one of the one's I am still hunting for in "7" or better. That was the year Ted, turning 39 that August, hit .388 (just six hits shy of .400) with 38 HR's! The greatest hitter of all time, based on what I personally believe is the best yardstick, Bill James' runs created compared to league average runs created (per 27 outs) of that time. Ted was at 250% of league average for his ENTIRE CAREER, while Gehrig (who was over 210% career-wise, as I recall), in his best year, 1927, only got to 249%. The Babe, who created more total runs than Ted because the conditions of his era were more conducive to run production, was at 240%.

Larry

I would agree that Teddy Ballgame was the best offensive player to ever play the game.

I have a beautiful 57 myself. For me this can be one of his nicest cards or one of the worst. The 57 set in general can be very ugly with its common horrible print offset.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Ted is my favorite and will always be. Here's mine:

[irv]

When I first joined this site 8-9 months ago, I asked where all the Ted Williams cards were?

I seen Ruth's, Mays, Koufax's Robinson's, and of course Mantle's, but very few, almost non existent, Williams cards.

I was told he currently wasn't popular and also along the lines that he really never was compared to the players I mentioned above??

This struck me, (but it could have been bad info?) as I thought Ted, and at least a couple others, would have been a huge desirable cards to collect.?

I purchased this one, my only Ted, but I wish I had of purchased the whole set I seen on here or E-Bay relatively cheap.

[the 'stache]

Robert, that's a beaut! My God, those borders are white. And, the centering + registration are pretty much perfect.

[DBesse27]

Dale, I just completed that set. My favorite set of all time.

[begsu1013]

.

[DBesse27]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

so you got the contract sp card, dan?

Yes sir, huge day for me!! I'll pm you a scan.

[ALR-bishop]

There are a number of fake Ted Signs cards. The on one bottom here is a fake

[DBesse27]

True, which is why I bought a slabbed copy. Not 100% foolproof, but I'm confident mine is authentic.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Robert, that's a beaut! My God, those borders are white. And, the centering + registration are pretty much perfect.

Thanks, Bill. It is one of the clearer '57 Williams cards I have seen.

[begsu1013]

.

[mintacular]

I think it would likely come back 6, 6.5 with slim shot at 7. Think the corners aren't quite sharp enough for a 7. Here is my 5:



(There are a few surface scratched hence the grade)

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by mintacular

I think it would likely come back 6, 6.5 with slim shot at 7. Think the corners aren't quite sharp enough for a 7. Here is my 5:

http://[IMG]http://www.collectorfocu...iams[/IMG]

(There are a few surface scratched hence the grade)

Has to be one of the sharpest 5s of all time!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[ALR-bishop]

Great looking card Patrick

[dembums]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Have they started downgrading noticeably for rough cuts? Used to be that PSA was not bothered by rough cuts, I didn't think.

Slightly OT and not my card, but just saw this on ebay.